LS1LT1

That's more along the lines of what I'm thinking.

Guibo

How often do you race other people on the street? Do you honestly think a Porsche Turbo owner is pissed that a Viper/Corvette might beat him on a highway roll (because you'd better pray for perfect shifts and excellent surface grip if you're going to "easily outperform" a Turbo from a dig). Do you think people who buy Miatas, Elises, GT-86s, etc, really care about objective performance?

Telepierre

I subscribe to this opinion in full.

Signed:

Happy C6 owner in Stuttgart - Germany.

LS1LT1

Often enough.
But even if it's only one time, I'm paying thousands of dollars for a product, I want to know that it can do what it was designed to do and do it well, maybe even be the best at it.
When I buy a hammer I don't want it to just be able to crush milk cartons, I want it to hammer big nails into very hardened wood too.




So now all of a sudden, the average sports car buyer (or more specifically, the average Porsche sports car buyer) has no ego?
Perhaps just a tad of that "I bought the best, nothing can beat me" vibe running through their mind when they drive their shiny new cars?
You yourself stated that the average income for a Porsche 911 owner is $300k/year, correct?
For a 911 Turbo owner it would likely be even higher.
Most of them got there being timid and non competitive in your opinion?
If you're a hard charging, go getter in the office/trading floor/courtroom/football field/basketball court etc and you've just ponied up $130k+ for what is advertised as one of the fastest cars in the world...well, you see where I'm going with that.
Perhaps a bit of generalizing/stereotyping there but c'mon man, we both live in the REAL world.





Some people buy Miatas because they're cute, others buy them because they make good autocross cars or to compete in the Madza Cup spec series or other SCCA road racing classes.
The new Scion/Subaru twins might find similar buyers as they are being touted for their cornering/handling/braking prowess. And an Elise is a hardcore/bare bones sports car that appeals to a very small (and dedicated) audience, they're very low, they're not very roomy/spacious inside, not that good in snow/ice, they can't haul many bags of topsoil. So yes, many buyers of cars like those do care about at least some areas of performance.
Otherwise they'd just buy Altimas, Camrys or Accords.

Again, you're not wrong there. And neither am I.
Neither one of us is actually in a position to determine exactly why OTHERS buy what they do.
That would be quite bold, no?
Just because YOU don't place certain demands on a particular vehicle purchase, doesn't mean that others don't.

0WildVettes

I would hate if there was only one car available. How boring would that be? We wouldn't have debates like this one.

Jinx

The average Porsche buyer knows that if he rolls against another worthy sports car on the street and a LEO happens to see it, he's going to jail.

SanDiegoBert

Yep, any bust over 100 MPH brings out the bracelets and the ride downtown. Um, hypothetically speaking, of course.

Guibo

Describe for me "often enough." Every time you drive? Every month? Then describe for me how often you look at your interior, touch the steering wheel, touch the shifter or armrest, how often you use the seats. How often do you use the steering wheel to steer the car, or use the shift **** to change gears?
So you're telling me that most Porsches are built to be faster than Corvettes/Vipers, interiors be damned. So, why are their interiors so nice?
The Corvette is advertised as a high-quality, luxurious premium car. GM make no small claims that it was designed for that. Is it the best at that? By the consensus of most independent sources, and from owners in this very thread, the answer seems to be no.
When you buy a hammer, you can bet that 99% of the time that you use it, you'll be hammering nails. Not crushing milk cartons. By the same token, I doubt you're racing people 99% of the time you're driving.


Maybe they are. Maybe it's just a figment of your own imagination, and need to feel secure that you bought "the best" product. Have you done a poll on this matter? I have a feeling they aren't so interested in such matters. If they were, they would have bought a Corvette or Viper instead, which they can easily afford.

That they may be advertised as one of the fastest cars in the world does not mean they have to be the fastest cars in the world. Understand the distinction.
You seriously think those ballers/executives/traders care so much about ouright performance and performance/dollar? Some will have Corvettes, but they will also have Porsches, Ferraris, Rolls, Bentleys, Astons, Land Rovers, and Mercs. None of these are particularly effective performance bang/buck machines. I think your typical 1%er, if he's not taken by limo to work, is going to find the Corvette's outright performance advantage of little use in an urban setting of traffic, cops, speed cameras, pothole-ridden and cracked roads, etc. As such, other qualities of a car (its refinement, ride, overall quality and feel) become much more important.

And of those million or so Miata owners, you're telling me none of them buy them because they're fun to drive? Out of those millions, what % do you think ever actually end up in a Mazda Cup spec series or SCCA road racing class? The fact that the new Scion/Subaru twins are being touted for their cornering/handling/braking prowess doesn't mean people are buying them to acheive great objective performance. In fact, you've totally misread Toyobaru's intent with those cars: It's about fun. Not headline-grabbing objective numbers.
Again, you seem to not accept that, for the vast majority, they want something fun and practical. That the Elise appeals to a very small audience doesn't diminish the fact that it's a sports car that was designed not for outright numbers. It wasn't designed to beat other cars, as you claim that is the purpose of owning/buying a sports car. Once the performance level gets to a certain point, most owners won't care about the marginal differences between, say, a Turbo or a ZR1.

The difference here is that you're marginalizing the importance of fun in a sports car. You seem to be saying that there is no other point in owning/buying a sportscar than to impose one's own egotistical superiority over others by beating others down on the street.
I have already conceded pages ago in this very thread that some buy for performance/dollar. Why you continue to overlook this fact is quite puzzling. But we can look at the vast majority of sports car buyers, especially in those in the premium class, and get an idea of what the majority don't necessarily want above all else. The case was made earlier that the Corvette outsells all 2-seat Porsche sports cars, Merc 2-seaters, other sports cars and exotics combined. As it turns out, that is not even true in the US, one of the most value-conscious of the industrialized nations. Nevermind the outlook when you look at total sports car sales around the world. And with Viper (faster than Porsche for similar money) once on its deathbed and now resurrected with an improved interior, I think we can safely assume that those who value performance/dollar are in the minority. It's not the major consideration in buying/owning a sports car that you've made it out to be. It might not even be a major consideration for the vast majority of Corvette buyers, who might just want something fun, something American, something that looks good, is low and sporty, and (yes) offers more status and cachet and technology than a Mustang.

Racer X

So did you include the 911 in that Porsche count? If so, you shouldn't have done that. It is not a "2 seater". It is a 2+2. So it is essentially the Boxter and the Cayman. And maybe a couple of the track versions.

Notch

Guibo - Outstanding reply.

Guibo

I didn't include any of the 911s in that count. I know it's not a 2-seater (but I have a pretty good hunch why someone would want to leave it out of sales calculations).

Reciprocal

Prove to me the existence of more than (2) ZR1s in the UK from 2008 to 2010. The rest of your post is obfuscation.

Irrelevant. ZR1 not available for sale during these time periods. More obfuscation.


You cite a thread started by YOU. There is no quote from Car Magazine and I don't know what you could be referring to in the 11th post. More obfuscation.

More obfuscation.

No proof of ZR1s in that group of 3500 unsold cars. The car was announced on sale in the UK Sept 2008 in a quantity of 2, and available to order (ATO) just 10 units in 2009. You found two registrations. That squares with the announcement. By March 2009, Kroymans was in bankruptcy and it wasn't until December 2009 before International Fleet Sales took over distribution as GM came out of bankruptcy.

You've been saying that any European who wanted one could get one, but with an ordering hassle like that, a proven supply of just two left hand ZR1s, that was not an obstacle to owning one but the interior was? Absurd.

So you're saying that by 2010, (2) right hand ZR1's came into the UK from Europe. Your timeline is wrong. ZR1s were not in that group of unsold cars that bankrupted Kroymans. The window for importing the two ZR1s was between 4th quarter 2008 and Kroymans bankruptcy filing in Mar 2009. It was announced that just 2 ZR1s went on sale after Sept 2008, and that only 10 were available to order for 2009. So if we count all 12, that was the supply available to 800 million in Europe and UK.

It was in the case of the ZR1. You'd have had better luck feeding 5 thousand with 5 loaves of bread and two fishes.

Guibo

So now you are allowing that 2 ZR1s were in the UK. If ZR1s were never imported as you had originally claimed, how did they get there?
A ZR1 can be privately imported into the UK, just like the Carrera GT (of which 50 were originally planned for the UK, but 85 new vehicles were eventually registered). Just like the Ford GT (of which 28 were officially allocated to the UK, yet 30 were registered in 2006 alone, with a total 76 registered). Tell me why a ZR1 can't be imported in the same manner.
Here's a ZR1 in Sweden, filmed 5/2010:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCw88BNJAPM
This should tell us that by 2010, the ZR1 was unquestionably imported into Europe. So why zero registrations in the UK for 2010?

Note the caption in this photo:
"May I proudly present: One of the very first ZR1s to be photographed in Germany (second one in Munich)
This photo was taken on July 10, 2009"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/germanspotter/3707980542/

And this one:
"The owner is the youngest billionaire in Switzerland.
This photo was taken on July 25, 2009 in Lehel, Munich."
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kenopho...hy/3754888126/

Here's one in Italy, also in 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnPc9zwR2XI

Here's one at a German import tuner show, which was held Apr 30 thru May 3, 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_6mA-iuUiM

Here's a ZR1 in a showroom, snapped in April 2009:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonny-bens/3446256139/

Your claim that the ZR1 was never imported, and particularly with regard to the time frame in question, appears to be patently false.

If only 10 were available for order for 2009, then why did they make 37 of them with the European export RPO? ~9 were available for 2009 to the UK. Not all of Europe. Tell me why there are zero new ZR1 registrations to the UK in 2010 and 2011.

I have no proof that a blue Corvette convertible or a black BLS was in that group of unsold cars, but do I need it to show that Corvette/Cadillac sales have been on the decline before Kroymans went bankrupt? Not at all. We have the slowdown in both Corvette and Cadillac sales numbers, as well as the decline in European-market RPO's for the Corvette. Meaning GM had already anticipated declining demand on already low production numbers. All of this is documented before the Kroymans bankruptcy. All of this documented by the fact that GM announced withdrawal of Cadillac/Corvette brand from half of 25 markets. Simple fact is, they had a dealer network but hardly anybody showed up to buy, which shows that in the supply/demand chicken vs egg analogy, it is demand that drives supply. Corvette's presence in Europe is almost non-existent because demand is virtually non-existent, compared to perceived competitors.
I wasn't talking about the ZR1 being in that group (though it very well could be); I was talking about the Corvette's low demand in Europe in general. The obfuscation here is being done on your part.

I was referring to this article, which clearly timed-out as it was posted years ago:
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4619/c6zr1.jpg

25 planned for the UK. Currently running at 2 new registrations. You can't pin this on Kroymans.

So are you saying that people in the UK/Europe starve for the ZR1 just like 5 thousand people fighting for 5 loaves of bread and two fishes? Tell me again why Geiger even has a ZR1 for sale on its website, and heavily discounted too.

Rapid Fred

Guibo you make me nuts!

The Vette is absolutely world class at what it does; nothing else in the world can touch it for the price (even the new Mustang Cobras/Shelbys will fall short in certain performance parameters, even if only fuel efficiency and tire wear LOL)

The majority of folks on this site get that there are finer details out there on equivalent performers (at 2X or more the price), and there are really sweet sports cars at the same price with a bit more fit and finish, or a more fashionable interior design theme (which may not age all that well, BTW, given that Vette interiors in the C5 and C6 got more like old Porsche interiors, while Porsche and BMW slathered on more brightwork, sound deadener, and curb weight!) They also made their choice based on what the Vette does offer because that's what they value.

But, what YOU don't seem to get is that given the choice between retaining what makes Vettes world class at a great price, or classing it up with trim and "niceties" while charging $10K more, most of us will go for the former every time.

Back on topic -- let's get the interior a little bit more stylish while retaining the excellent ergonomics and big, legible instrumentation, offer reasonably-priced factory option sport seats that reflect truth in advertising, and do it at minimal cost. Then continue to stay ahead of Euro and Asian performance at much lower entry price, make the thing look like it is doing 120MPH standing still, and all will be well. It's not rocket science.

The rest of it seems like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

shawnvettefan

But, what YOU don't seem to get is that given the choice between retaining what makes Vettes world class at a great price, or classing it up with trim and "niceties" while charging $10K more, most of us will go for the former every time.

...[/QUOTE]

Absolutely disagree!!! With the exception of some who are just obsessed with keeping the car cheap (in price, content and stature), I am sure most will pay more for a more refined and upscale car.

I would have no problem with a $60K base Corvette if it was world class in every aspect (interior, transmission, engine, dealer experience, warranty, etc). And if GM does the above then guess what? The Corvette would still be relatively very cheap and the best bang for the buck even at $60K! If $10K extra is really going to break someone that is looking for a high-line vehicle then they really have no business buying a Corvette in the first place.

SanDiegoBert

Nicely stated, and good luck with staying on topic . . .

Jinx

Where does this $10K number come from? That's an absurd figure for upgrading the standard interior. This is a mass-produced automobile; you're not going to do what Lamborghini does, you're going to do something that can be done on a 30,000 cars-per-year assembly line, not something that you buy 2 of from a small-town craftsman.

Sure, you might charge $10K for a whole set of high-profit hand-selected hand-stitched color-matched hides, like Porsche does, but you'll notice they don't do that on the standard interior.

Most Corvette buyers would not pay an extra $10K just for the interior. That's absurd. But GM can add $1K to the base MSRP and deliver a fantastic interior, and offer the expected $2K-$3K technology package and the $3K Recaros and even a $2K all-leather package and make most Corvette buyers very happy.

As long as we can get the HUD by itself.

.Jinx

LS1LT1

While I do for the most part agree with this ^ ....I do have to see this side of the coin as well:The interesting part of that is that it might not even cost a whole $10k more do accomplish this.
Through the magic/wonders of quantity purchasing/amortization (and perhaps even through some partial sharing with high line Cadillac models?) I'm guessing that GM/Chevrolet/Team Corvette could in fact deliver a very stylishly appointed interior with quality materials (maybe not glove soft Bentley/Rolls Royce levels mind you, but at least a match for the Carrera S) for less than a $2k increase in base MSRP over the current base C6's layout. Any further (3LT, 4LT etc.) upgrades can still be available for those that want the cognac leather with pink silk stitching and seat massagers LOL and that would also allow for some extra profits for GM.
30k - 40k units per year over the course of 4-7 years, it's very possible that one could have their cake and eat it too.

Now, I like my money and do want to retain as much of it as possible while still owning/enjoying my sports cars. But I think even I with my uber thrifty mentality could bring myself to pay $53k for a Corvette with an awesome interior versus only $51k (or even $55k versus $53k, however pricing plays out for the C7) for one with an adequately good one (which is how I find the current base C6 to be inside).
$60k+ for a base Corvette? Maybe others would still go for it but that would only work for me if the car delivered C6 Z06 levels of performance (as performance is still my main priority) along with said improved interior accoutrement right out of the gate, which I just don't see happening.

LS1LT1

Oh, ya beat me to it by 4 minutes LOL.

shawnvettefan

I'm not only talking about the interior but the car as a whole. Better transmission, better technology, better warranty, better warranty, etc along with a world class interior.

It could be $5K or $10K?? The point is that if the corvette had all of the above at a base price of $60K, it would still be the best bang for the buck out there.