How GM might approach weight and cost in the C7
05-12-2012, 11:58 AM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
How GM might approach weight and cost in the C7
This article from TorqueNews gives a possible approach to the near future of the C7...
I'm guessing there will be plenty of other considerations given the difference in competition between the two.
2013 Cadillac ATS will sell for $10 per pound
Pricing and also the curb weight has been announced for the new 2013 Cadillac ATS. Both numbers are critical for Cadillac in order to compete with the car that the ATS is designed to go head to head with, the 2013 BMW 3-series . The price will be just under $34,000.00 and the curb weight will be just under 3400 pounds. Ten dollars per pound. These were the numbers that the automaker needed to hit. In the past, Cadillac and others have released cars that were either built nimble enough to compete with the BMW 328i, or had a similar price point, but never both at once.
2013 ATS Intelligent Weight Distribution
The way Cadillac achieved the price point and the weight target in the new 2013 ATS is interesting. More and more premium automakers are moving towards aluminum for most of the car with carbon fiber sprinkled on top so they can mention the material in advertising. Cadillac resisted that path and the car will be a better car for it. For example, the rear differential is one of the heaviest parts of any real-wheel drive car. Cadillac could have simply instructed their engineers to make that part from aluminum. The assumption being that would be a good place to save weight. But is it? In a press release Cadillac points out that they learned from their CTS-V super-sedan that the rear differential is a good place not to save weight because the part is near the rear, so it balances the weight of the engine up front. They don’t mention it, but one would also think that weight down low is also better than weight up high, so it would be better to spend the money on more expensive materials up higher on the car. The cast iron used has better heat expansion characteristics than aluminum and the parts can operate with closer tolerances, thereby saving fuel and reducing noise.
Cadillac Uses Steel
Another novel material used in the new Cadillac ATS is steel. Yes, steel has a reputation for being heavy and for being old fashioned, but that is not really true. In fact, years back during the cold war the US obtained a state of the art Russian made fighter flown by a defector. It wasn’t until it was actually analyzed that the US engineers realized it was made almost entirely from steel, and in many cases unique alloys. Even so, the plane was considered competitive with the titanium and aluminum planes of the day. Cadillac elected to use steel suspension components engineered to be light weight and strong by reducing the material used where possible (holes).
New Composites
New composite materials were also employed in the ATS including special acoustic glass that reduced noise compared to conventional auto glass and also saved weight. A similar approach was used by Cadillac in some of its steel panels. Rather than use a single piece it used two pieces of laminated steel with a sound absorbing material in between. David Masch, ATS chief engineer explains, “We designed and engineered ATS’s vehicle architecture to deliver quick, nimble and fun-to-drive dynamics. We distributed mass to key areas, much like an athlete builds muscle where he needs it most. This enabled ATS to achieve the performance characteristics that luxury sport sedan buyers demand.”
The 2013 Cadillac ATS delivers the performance and value expected in its class by keeping weight and cost down to ten dollars per pound.
Pricing and also the curb weight has been announced for the new 2013 Cadillac ATS. Both numbers are critical for Cadillac in order to compete with the car that the ATS is designed to go head to head with, the 2013 BMW 3-series . The price will be just under $34,000.00 and the curb weight will be just under 3400 pounds. Ten dollars per pound. These were the numbers that the automaker needed to hit. In the past, Cadillac and others have released cars that were either built nimble enough to compete with the BMW 328i, or had a similar price point, but never both at once.
2013 ATS Intelligent Weight Distribution
The way Cadillac achieved the price point and the weight target in the new 2013 ATS is interesting. More and more premium automakers are moving towards aluminum for most of the car with carbon fiber sprinkled on top so they can mention the material in advertising. Cadillac resisted that path and the car will be a better car for it. For example, the rear differential is one of the heaviest parts of any real-wheel drive car. Cadillac could have simply instructed their engineers to make that part from aluminum. The assumption being that would be a good place to save weight. But is it? In a press release Cadillac points out that they learned from their CTS-V super-sedan that the rear differential is a good place not to save weight because the part is near the rear, so it balances the weight of the engine up front. They don’t mention it, but one would also think that weight down low is also better than weight up high, so it would be better to spend the money on more expensive materials up higher on the car. The cast iron used has better heat expansion characteristics than aluminum and the parts can operate with closer tolerances, thereby saving fuel and reducing noise.
Cadillac Uses Steel
Another novel material used in the new Cadillac ATS is steel. Yes, steel has a reputation for being heavy and for being old fashioned, but that is not really true. In fact, years back during the cold war the US obtained a state of the art Russian made fighter flown by a defector. It wasn’t until it was actually analyzed that the US engineers realized it was made almost entirely from steel, and in many cases unique alloys. Even so, the plane was considered competitive with the titanium and aluminum planes of the day. Cadillac elected to use steel suspension components engineered to be light weight and strong by reducing the material used where possible (holes).
New Composites
New composite materials were also employed in the ATS including special acoustic glass that reduced noise compared to conventional auto glass and also saved weight. A similar approach was used by Cadillac in some of its steel panels. Rather than use a single piece it used two pieces of laminated steel with a sound absorbing material in between. David Masch, ATS chief engineer explains, “We designed and engineered ATS’s vehicle architecture to deliver quick, nimble and fun-to-drive dynamics. We distributed mass to key areas, much like an athlete builds muscle where he needs it most. This enabled ATS to achieve the performance characteristics that luxury sport sedan buyers demand.”
The 2013 Cadillac ATS delivers the performance and value expected in its class by keeping weight and cost down to ten dollars per pound.
.
05-12-2012, 06:15 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
Did $10/pound come out of the Cadillac PR machine? I don't think so. I think this is just bad writing. This 3400lbs for $34,000 doesn't make any kind of value statement about the car; it's just a numerical coincidence. (Think about it -- is a lower or higher number supposed to be better?)
In development of C5, Dave Hill established a rule where it was okay to increase the cost of the car $10 if it saved a kilogram. (Am I remembering the quantities correctly?) That is, cost goes up as weight goes down.
I'm much more interested in pounds per horsepower, ten dollar bills per horsepower, and minutes per 'Ring lap. The sum of those three ratios should be under 30, and the lower the better.
.Jinx
In development of C5, Dave Hill established a rule where it was okay to increase the cost of the car $10 if it saved a kilogram. (Am I remembering the quantities correctly?) That is, cost goes up as weight goes down.
I'm much more interested in pounds per horsepower, ten dollar bills per horsepower, and minutes per 'Ring lap. The sum of those three ratios should be under 30, and the lower the better.
.Jinx
05-12-2012, 06:19 PM
#5
Former Vendor
Did $10/pound come out of the Cadillac PR machine? I don't think so. I think this is just bad writing. This 3400lbs for $34,000 doesn't make any kind of value statement about the car; it's just a numerical coincidence. (Think about it -- is a lower or higher number supposed to be better?)
In development of C5, Dave Hill established a rule where it was okay to increase the cost of the car $10 if it saved a kilogram. (Am I remembering the quantities correctly?) That is, cost goes up as weight goes down.
I'm much more interested in pounds per horsepower, ten dollar bills per horsepower, and minutes per 'Ring lap. The sum of those three ratios should be under 30, and the lower the better.
.Jinx
In development of C5, Dave Hill established a rule where it was okay to increase the cost of the car $10 if it saved a kilogram. (Am I remembering the quantities correctly?) That is, cost goes up as weight goes down.
I'm much more interested in pounds per horsepower, ten dollar bills per horsepower, and minutes per 'Ring lap. The sum of those three ratios should be under 30, and the lower the better.
.Jinx
Shhhhhh. Be quiet. I want my $28,000 2800 lb C7 please.
05-12-2012, 10:50 PM
#7
Former Vendor
05-13-2012, 01:16 AM
#8
Drifting
Did $10/pound come out of the Cadillac PR machine? I don't think so. I think this is just bad writing. This 3400lbs for $34,000 doesn't make any kind of value statement about the car; it's just a numerical coincidence. (Think about it -- is a lower or higher number supposed to be better?)
In development of C5, Dave Hill established a rule where it was okay to increase the cost of the car $10 if it saved a kilogram. (Am I remembering the quantities correctly?) That is, cost goes up as weight goes down.
.Jinx
In development of C5, Dave Hill established a rule where it was okay to increase the cost of the car $10 if it saved a kilogram. (Am I remembering the quantities correctly?) That is, cost goes up as weight goes down.
.Jinx
In the past, Cadillac and others have released cars that were either built nimble enough to compete with the BMW 328i, or had a similar price point, but never both at once.
What they are saying is that Caddy, the past, has made a car that was light and nimble, like a BMW 3 series, but it cost too much. You point out that Dave Hill had to increase the cost of the C5 in order to reduce weight. The point is that it costs money to lighten a car and $10 a pound gets tougher and tougher to do as the car gets lighter because the materials get more expensive.
For example, take a Chevy truck that weighs 4686LBS and has a base price of $22195. That's a heavy vehicle that costs $4.73 per pound. Easy to keep the pound cost down because its ok to be heavy and plain steel is affordable. Now take a Lotus Elise at 1878LBS and $47,250. I chose this car because its price is not inflated due to a fancy engine. This car is super light and costs $25.16 per pound due to expensive materials.
So it makes sense that getting the cost per pound down to $10 is pretty good and a big deal. The point of the article is to say that this was done with smart use of materials to save weight without having to throw money at the materials to get lighter weight. The fact that the math was easy was just a coincidence.
05-13-2012, 01:31 AM
#9
Le Mans Master
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Until you need to replace a body panel. There goes our insurance prices.
Actually, I saw a special on carbon fiber manufacturing saying that they could not only get the price of carbon fiber panels and pieces down lower than the cost of the SMC panels, but they could produce them twice as fast. They have a "press" now that deals with making CF components REALLY fast.
Actually, I saw a special on carbon fiber manufacturing saying that they could not only get the price of carbon fiber panels and pieces down lower than the cost of the SMC panels, but they could produce them twice as fast. They have a "press" now that deals with making CF components REALLY fast.
05-13-2012, 04:32 AM
#10
Le Mans Master
No, my statement about Dave Hill and the C5 contradict the ideal of getting a car down to $10/pound. They built a $40,000 car weighing 3,200 pounds -- $12.5/pound. If only they hadn't bothered being so exotic, they might have built a $36,000 car weighing 3,600 pounds -- a perfect $10/pound! Is that too heavy for you? I direct you to the Kappa twins, which weighed 3,000 pounds and cost about $20,000. They shaved 200 pounds and cut the price IN HALF; clearly GM cancelled the wrong car.
The Chevy Malibu weighs 3,600 pounds. Does it weigh too much, or simply cost too little?
Weighs too much, eh? Okay, here's another one for you -- Chevy Cruze undercuts the awesome BMW and ATS by 200 pounds. So it'd be really impressive if it cost only $32,000, wouldn't it? Guess what? It costs $10,000 less than that!
The quote you pulled out doesn't make any sense either. Cadillac hasn't built any sedan nimble enough to compete with the BMW 328i, ever -- and certainly not something that was nimble enough but cost too much!
I stand by my assertion that it's a confused and poorly written article. It ain't that I don't get it; I get that in trying to boil down a car to just two numbers, cost and mass, it goes too far and strips itself of meaning.
.Jinx
The Chevy Malibu weighs 3,600 pounds. Does it weigh too much, or simply cost too little?
Weighs too much, eh? Okay, here's another one for you -- Chevy Cruze undercuts the awesome BMW and ATS by 200 pounds. So it'd be really impressive if it cost only $32,000, wouldn't it? Guess what? It costs $10,000 less than that!
The quote you pulled out doesn't make any sense either. Cadillac hasn't built any sedan nimble enough to compete with the BMW 328i, ever -- and certainly not something that was nimble enough but cost too much!
I stand by my assertion that it's a confused and poorly written article. It ain't that I don't get it; I get that in trying to boil down a car to just two numbers, cost and mass, it goes too far and strips itself of meaning.
.Jinx
05-13-2012, 09:21 AM
#11
Race Director
Thread Starter
I think they and you are making too big a deal about the $10 a lb. part. The real issue is how GM is approaching weight/weight reduction. I suspect we will see all aluminum chassis on the C7 and a lot of change to how parts are connected to lower weight. I also believe we will see the first AWD model of Corvette some time during the C7 generation.
05-13-2012, 02:26 PM
#13
Safety Car
The $10 per pound relationship does NOT refer to a brand new car. What is refers to is the process of reducing the weight of a car that is undergoing its final design/pre-manufacturing process changes.
All new Corvettes series have a design weight (for performance and fuel economy). They are ambitious targets, sometimes achievable, sometimes not. This $10 per pound figure was used in the final design of the C5, when, in the book "All Corvettes Are Red," it was reported that Dave Hill said that if someone could reduce the weight of a component by a pound (say by going to a higher strength steel or to an aluminum or other lower weight part), but NOT increase that component part's price by more than $10, he would approve that change.
There is similarly a design weight for the C7 (that many conjecture about, but few know its actual amount). At this point, the weight of the car is pretty well known within GM and probably above that target. Perhaps the $ 10 per pound figure is again being used, perhaps it is now $15/pound -- all toward trying to achieve the C7's target weight.
All new Corvettes series have a design weight (for performance and fuel economy). They are ambitious targets, sometimes achievable, sometimes not. This $10 per pound figure was used in the final design of the C5, when, in the book "All Corvettes Are Red," it was reported that Dave Hill said that if someone could reduce the weight of a component by a pound (say by going to a higher strength steel or to an aluminum or other lower weight part), but NOT increase that component part's price by more than $10, he would approve that change.
There is similarly a design weight for the C7 (that many conjecture about, but few know its actual amount). At this point, the weight of the car is pretty well known within GM and probably above that target. Perhaps the $ 10 per pound figure is again being used, perhaps it is now $15/pound -- all toward trying to achieve the C7's target weight.
05-13-2012, 02:54 PM
#14
Drifting
Member Since: Feb 2002
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The $10 per pound relationship does NOT refer to a brand new car. What is refers to is the process of reducing the weight of a car that is undergoing its final design/pre-manufacturing process changes.
All new Corvettes series have a design weight (for performance and fuel economy). They are ambitious targets, sometimes achievable, sometimes not. This $10 per pound figure was used in the final design of the C5, when, in the book "All Corvettes Are Red," it was reported that Dave Hill said that if someone could reduce the weight of a component by a pound (say by going to a higher strength steel or to an aluminum or other lower weight part), but NOT increase that component part's price by more than $10, he would approve that change.
There is similarly a design weight for the C7 (that many conjecture about, but few know its actual amount). At this point, the weight of the car is pretty well known within GM and probably above that target. Perhaps the $ 10 per pound figure is again being used, perhaps it is now $15/pound -- all toward trying to achieve the C7's target weight.
All new Corvettes series have a design weight (for performance and fuel economy). They are ambitious targets, sometimes achievable, sometimes not. This $10 per pound figure was used in the final design of the C5, when, in the book "All Corvettes Are Red," it was reported that Dave Hill said that if someone could reduce the weight of a component by a pound (say by going to a higher strength steel or to an aluminum or other lower weight part), but NOT increase that component part's price by more than $10, he would approve that change.
There is similarly a design weight for the C7 (that many conjecture about, but few know its actual amount). At this point, the weight of the car is pretty well known within GM and probably above that target. Perhaps the $ 10 per pound figure is again being used, perhaps it is now $15/pound -- all toward trying to achieve the C7's target weight.
05-13-2012, 04:16 PM
#15
Safety Car
The $10 per pound relationship does NOT refer to a brand new car. What is refers to is the process of reducing the weight of a car that is undergoing its final design/pre-manufacturing process changes.
All new Corvettes series have a design weight (for performance and fuel economy). They are ambitious targets, sometimes achievable, sometimes not. This $10 per pound figure was used in the final design of the C5, when, in the book "All Corvettes Are Red," it was reported that Dave Hill said that if someone could reduce the weight of a component by a pound (say by going to a higher strength steel or to an aluminum or other lower weight part), but NOT increase that component part's price by more than $10, he would approve that change.
There is similarly a design weight for the C7 (that many conjecture about, but few know its actual amount). At this point, the weight of the car is pretty well known within GM and probably above that target. Perhaps the $ 10 per pound figure is again being used, perhaps it is now $15/pound -- all toward trying to achieve the C7's target weight.
All new Corvettes series have a design weight (for performance and fuel economy). They are ambitious targets, sometimes achievable, sometimes not. This $10 per pound figure was used in the final design of the C5, when, in the book "All Corvettes Are Red," it was reported that Dave Hill said that if someone could reduce the weight of a component by a pound (say by going to a higher strength steel or to an aluminum or other lower weight part), but NOT increase that component part's price by more than $10, he would approve that change.
There is similarly a design weight for the C7 (that many conjecture about, but few know its actual amount). At this point, the weight of the car is pretty well known within GM and probably above that target. Perhaps the $ 10 per pound figure is again being used, perhaps it is now $15/pound -- all toward trying to achieve the C7's target weight.
I believe the cost:weight target was probably just a creation of a writer who doesn't get it. Individually cost and weight set a watermark, but a ratio of the two makes no sense. Can you imagine the discussion: "we exactly meet the 10:1 ratio, but Jim figured out a way to reduce the weight by 400lbs, without any sacrifices, and keep the cost the same. But since that would mean a 11:1 cost:weight ratio, we are nixing that idea". Or: "we've met the 10:1 ratio, but we met with our suppliers, and we can get an extra 10% reduction in the all of the costs, so we could reduce the price of the car by 10% to undercut the competitors... But were not going to do that because it would change the ratio to 9:1".
If the ATS was truly targeting $10 per pound, then it would have been okay if the car had weighed 5000 lbs, and sold for $50,000. That would make it GREAT competition for the 3 series!
Last edited by WAwatchnut; 05-13-2012 at 04:59 PM.
05-13-2012, 05:34 PM
#18
Le Mans Master
05-13-2012, 08:40 PM
#20
Race Director
I beleive there are two important areas that will add to what you have suggested...to lower the weight in the C7...
One will be as Mark Ruess mentioned during an autoline after hours show whereby GM has created a new technique of welding that lowers weight and increases rigidity...
I don't know the details but it allows for a decrease in weight and improvement in rigidity..It was mentioned by Mark Ruess as a major break through to lowering weight...
The second manner in which GM will reduce weight in the C7 will be to utilize Opels seat design..
here are the details of Opels new lightweight supportive seat...
Enjoy!
--------------------------------------
http://media.opel.com/content/media/...opel_astra_opc
Rüsselsheim. The new Astra OPC, the most powerful Astra ever, will have a new high-performance bucket seat with state-of-the art technology, ready for the compact sports coupé’s world premiere at the international Geneva motor show on March 6. Both front seats increase the sporty and dynamic driving experience by introducing cutting-edge weight-saving material, a lower seating position and enhanced side support.
OPC (Opel Performance Center) engineers used an organic injection molded sheet in the performance seat shell, resulting in a weight saving of 45 percent compared to a conventional shell. The sheet is filled with a composite material of polyamide and fiber glass. The new material is both agile and strong and because of its strength it only needs to be one to two millimeters.
“Opel is the world’s first auto manufacturer to use this material in the shell of a production car seat,” says Armin Rossmann, the leader of the OPC seat development team. “The most powerful Astra ever deserves the best technology in all areas, including seating.”
The driver and his co-pilot can now enjoy an even more sporty driving experience as the seating position is 17 mm lower than in the Astra GTC coupé and even 40mm lower than the conventional Astra.
The lowering of the seats further increases the feeling for the car and the contact between the driver and the road.
The new seat boasts up to 18 different settings:
■Entire seat backwards and forwards (2)
■Entire seat upwards and downwards (2)
■Seat backrest backwards and forwards (2)
■Seat cushion angle adjustment (2)
■Seat cushion length extension (2)
■Four-way lumbar support adjustment (4)
■Adjustable side bolster support in back (2)
■Adjustable side bolster support in seat cushion (2)
The performance seat has the largest setting range in the compact sports coupé segment, allowing both the driver and his co-pilot a high degree of flexibility. In addition, pneumatically adjustable cushions are available for the flanks of the performance seat. They fit around every body shape and give support from the side at the push of a button. It can be ordered in three different leather, fabric and color combinations and will make its debut in the next generation Astra OPC.
Opel is the first car manufacturer to offer seats certified by the independent healthy back experts, AGR (“Aktion Gesunder Rücken e.V”), starting in 2003 with the Signum. The AGR only approves seats with its quality seal that meet its high ergonomic standards. In order to be honored with the AGR seal, the seat has to fulfill a list of ten criteria. They include four-way lordosis support and that the seatback contours adapt exactly to the natural curvature of the spine. The new Astra OPC continues this tradition and brings the only AGR certified seat to the compact sports coupé segment.
One will be as Mark Ruess mentioned during an autoline after hours show whereby GM has created a new technique of welding that lowers weight and increases rigidity...
I don't know the details but it allows for a decrease in weight and improvement in rigidity..It was mentioned by Mark Ruess as a major break through to lowering weight...
The second manner in which GM will reduce weight in the C7 will be to utilize Opels seat design..
here are the details of Opels new lightweight supportive seat...
Enjoy!
--------------------------------------
http://media.opel.com/content/media/...opel_astra_opc
Rüsselsheim. The new Astra OPC, the most powerful Astra ever, will have a new high-performance bucket seat with state-of-the art technology, ready for the compact sports coupé’s world premiere at the international Geneva motor show on March 6. Both front seats increase the sporty and dynamic driving experience by introducing cutting-edge weight-saving material, a lower seating position and enhanced side support.
OPC (Opel Performance Center) engineers used an organic injection molded sheet in the performance seat shell, resulting in a weight saving of 45 percent compared to a conventional shell. The sheet is filled with a composite material of polyamide and fiber glass. The new material is both agile and strong and because of its strength it only needs to be one to two millimeters.
“Opel is the world’s first auto manufacturer to use this material in the shell of a production car seat,” says Armin Rossmann, the leader of the OPC seat development team. “The most powerful Astra ever deserves the best technology in all areas, including seating.”
The driver and his co-pilot can now enjoy an even more sporty driving experience as the seating position is 17 mm lower than in the Astra GTC coupé and even 40mm lower than the conventional Astra.
The lowering of the seats further increases the feeling for the car and the contact between the driver and the road.
The new seat boasts up to 18 different settings:
■Entire seat backwards and forwards (2)
■Entire seat upwards and downwards (2)
■Seat backrest backwards and forwards (2)
■Seat cushion angle adjustment (2)
■Seat cushion length extension (2)
■Four-way lumbar support adjustment (4)
■Adjustable side bolster support in back (2)
■Adjustable side bolster support in seat cushion (2)
The performance seat has the largest setting range in the compact sports coupé segment, allowing both the driver and his co-pilot a high degree of flexibility. In addition, pneumatically adjustable cushions are available for the flanks of the performance seat. They fit around every body shape and give support from the side at the push of a button. It can be ordered in three different leather, fabric and color combinations and will make its debut in the next generation Astra OPC.
Opel is the first car manufacturer to offer seats certified by the independent healthy back experts, AGR (“Aktion Gesunder Rücken e.V”), starting in 2003 with the Signum. The AGR only approves seats with its quality seal that meet its high ergonomic standards. In order to be honored with the AGR seal, the seat has to fulfill a list of ten criteria. They include four-way lordosis support and that the seatback contours adapt exactly to the natural curvature of the spine. The new Astra OPC continues this tradition and brings the only AGR certified seat to the compact sports coupé segment.