4xxhp will not be enough
06-02-2012, 01:45 PM
#41
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Anyone else concerned about the c7 potential power output now that the gt500 has 600rwhp? Its a 55k msrp car that sure is a pig but has imo a better interior and is faster than a gs/c6 in the straight line. I know the corvette isnt a drag car but lets be real day to day straight line acceleration is what we usually get atleat here in texas. When i first heard the c7 will have a smaller motor and put out a marginal bump in power i wasnt concerned but now that the gt500 is directly competing and exceeding the c6 i sure hope chevy gives it a minimum of 540-570hp and gives us a cf driveshaft like the gt500 has.
The Mustang can have 1000 HP and it still wouldn't be in the same league as a Corvette. It's not all about power you know?
06-02-2012, 01:51 PM
#42
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Yes street ride you only need the 55k if i bought it i would pay 60k for the recaros and a few other bits. Mpg is fools gold imo. C6 only gets amazing mpg as a commuter. Nice to have but it wont sell cars.
As a track car the c6/c7 will be the better choice of course.
As a track car the c6/c7 will be the better choice of course.
It's $55K stripped. It's $62K with only the essential performance options that actually make it dangerous to Corvette in anything but a straight line. Here's what your $55K doesn't buy you:
TORSEN differential
Bilstein adjustable dampers
Uprated rear springs
External engine oil cooler
Differential cooler
Transmission cooler
Perhaps if you're just a stoplight threat you'll be happy with the base car, but if you want the "faster than Corvettes" track cred, that'll be $62K, thank you very much.
Of course we'll have to wait to see where Corvette lands in the following model year to make a fair comparison. Shall we table the falling-sky discussion until then? And then see if there's even a 2014 GT500 to compare?
We care. We just haven't all tied our personal sense of manhood to the base Corvette's numerical superiority over every other car available every single model year no matter how many or few might be sold. We don't all see the Corvette's identity as "the fastest for the cheapest no matter what sacrifices it requires."
I get it. You're thinking about a 2014 C7, but how can you spend all that money on that car and then have some dork in a grocery store parking lot taunt you with, "how's it feel to be slower than a Mustang?" If a better interior, still far more performance than you're likely capable of exploiting, more exotic looks, and likely more rewarding road feel aren't enough of a salve, then yes, Chevrolet has betrayed you and you should buy that Mustang. Then you'll have your factory-stock price-performance tarmac superiority, and the only bench racing inadequacy you'll have to worry about is every single theoretically faster-for-cheaper build-up of every decent sporting platform sold in the last 25 years. "How's it feel to be slower than a $5,000 old Camaro with a twin-turbo LS7 build? Hahaha, you suck, factory boy!" It never ends.
The 2015 model year will likely bring higher-performance Corvette variants. It'll also bring an all-new Mustang, and the GT500 probably won't be available OMG Ford's DOOMED.
.Jinx
PS GT500 fuel economy is TBD. Surely it'll outperform C7 there too...
TORSEN differential
Bilstein adjustable dampers
Uprated rear springs
External engine oil cooler
Differential cooler
Transmission cooler
Perhaps if you're just a stoplight threat you'll be happy with the base car, but if you want the "faster than Corvettes" track cred, that'll be $62K, thank you very much.
Of course we'll have to wait to see where Corvette lands in the following model year to make a fair comparison. Shall we table the falling-sky discussion until then? And then see if there's even a 2014 GT500 to compare?
We care. We just haven't all tied our personal sense of manhood to the base Corvette's numerical superiority over every other car available every single model year no matter how many or few might be sold. We don't all see the Corvette's identity as "the fastest for the cheapest no matter what sacrifices it requires."
I get it. You're thinking about a 2014 C7, but how can you spend all that money on that car and then have some dork in a grocery store parking lot taunt you with, "how's it feel to be slower than a Mustang?" If a better interior, still far more performance than you're likely capable of exploiting, more exotic looks, and likely more rewarding road feel aren't enough of a salve, then yes, Chevrolet has betrayed you and you should buy that Mustang. Then you'll have your factory-stock price-performance tarmac superiority, and the only bench racing inadequacy you'll have to worry about is every single theoretically faster-for-cheaper build-up of every decent sporting platform sold in the last 25 years. "How's it feel to be slower than a $5,000 old Camaro with a twin-turbo LS7 build? Hahaha, you suck, factory boy!" It never ends.
The 2015 model year will likely bring higher-performance Corvette variants. It'll also bring an all-new Mustang, and the GT500 probably won't be available OMG Ford's DOOMED.
.Jinx
PS GT500 fuel economy is TBD. Surely it'll outperform C7 there too...
06-02-2012, 01:54 PM
#43
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Give it a break with the comparison! Although the GT500 has impressive power, it's a different car with a different market. It's a mid level hot rod while the Corvette is a flagship niche world class (minus it's interior and maybe transmission) sports car. If you want a comparison then you got the wrong GM car to compare it to.....remember a car GM created just to compete with the Mustang?? It's called a Camaro.
The Mustang can have 1000 HP and it still wouldn't be in the same league as a Corvette. It's not all about power you know?
The Mustang can have 1000 HP and it still wouldn't be in the same league as a Corvette. It's not all about power you know?
However you are correct the gt500 shouldnt compete with the c7 which is why i made this thread.
06-02-2012, 01:55 PM
#44
Melting Slicks
I will say this, if GM is trying to get younger buyers then alot of them will street race and it will be more straight line racing. The ZR1 is a world class car but the base C6 is just a nice buy for its power, not world class. Thats why I bought it. It being a vette had nothing to do with it. I understand some think the vette is it while others think the Porsche is it and so on. The GT500 is geared to be compared to the Camaro because of price but is still a beast as the new camaro will be in a straight line which is really where most of the racing is done for the younger generation. But hardcore car guys will stay with the car they like no matter who makes it.
06-02-2012, 02:06 PM
#45
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Similar msrp similar buyers. People cross shop them all the time. Just saw a thread in the z06 forum where people were talking about moving from their zo6 to the gt500. I dont know why thats hard to grasp for some of you. On this forum and gt500 forums buyers talk about both cars.
However you are correct the gt500 shouldnt compete with the c7 which is why i made this thread.
However you are correct the gt500 shouldnt compete with the c7 which is why i made this thread.
06-02-2012, 02:07 PM
#46
Le Mans Master
Yes street ride you only need the 55k
That is not its mission.
Mpg is fools gold imo. C6 only gets amazing mpg as a commuter. Nice to have but it wont sell cars.
And fuel economy doesn't just matter when commuting. A lighter more aerodynamic car will consume less fuel for a given lap time, all else being comparable. It'll go further / cost less on road trips too, whether you're cruising or pushing hard.
But the basic point to be gleaned from all this? Mustang is serious business. It's not the same formula as Corvette, anymore than Corvette is the same formula as 911, but from the V6 with the track pack to the GT Premium to the Boss 302 to the GT500, it's some tasty dishes. It'll make Camaro a much better car, and it'll keep Corvette honest. And for that, we say, "thank you."
.Jinx
06-02-2012, 02:20 PM
#47
Melting Slicks
Corvette has never been the best bang for the buck in a straight line.
That is not its mission.
Great mileage might not sell a lot of performance cars, but lousy mileage can hurt sales.
And fuel economy doesn't just matter when commuting. A lighter more aerodynamic car will consume less fuel for a given lap time, all else being comparable. It'll go further / cost less on road trips too, whether you're cruising or pushing hard.
But the basic point to be gleaned from all this? Mustang is serious business. It's not the same formula as Corvette, anymore than Corvette is the same formula as 911, but from the V6 with the track pack to the GT Premium to the Boss 302 to the GT500, it's some tasty dishes. It'll make Camaro a much better car, and it'll keep Corvette honest. And for that, we say, "thank you.".Jinx
That is not its mission.
Great mileage might not sell a lot of performance cars, but lousy mileage can hurt sales.
And fuel economy doesn't just matter when commuting. A lighter more aerodynamic car will consume less fuel for a given lap time, all else being comparable. It'll go further / cost less on road trips too, whether you're cruising or pushing hard.
But the basic point to be gleaned from all this? Mustang is serious business. It's not the same formula as Corvette, anymore than Corvette is the same formula as 911, but from the V6 with the track pack to the GT Premium to the Boss 302 to the GT500, it's some tasty dishes. It'll make Camaro a much better car, and it'll keep Corvette honest. And for that, we say, "thank you.".Jinx
06-02-2012, 02:32 PM
#48
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Price doesn't always dictate comparisons. A fully loaded Honda Accord will cost almost around the same price a Lexus ES but does that mean they are in the same class? Sure there is a small minority that cross shop everything (not just cars) cars but that doesn't make the cars in the same class. While the GT500 is impressive, again a direct comparison is the Camaro.
06-02-2012, 02:34 PM
#49
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Stock for stock the c6 offered great bang for the buck in a straight line. Who was better for the price pre 2013 gt500?
Corvette has never been the best bang for the buck in a straight line.
That is not its mission.
Great mileage might not sell a lot of performance cars, but lousy mileage can hurt sales.
And fuel economy doesn't just matter when commuting. A lighter more aerodynamic car will consume less fuel for a given lap time, all else being comparable. It'll go further / cost less on road trips too, whether you're cruising or pushing hard.
But the basic point to be gleaned from all this? Mustang is serious business. It's not the same formula as Corvette, anymore than Corvette is the same formula as 911, but from the V6 with the track pack to the GT Premium to the Boss 302 to the GT500, it's some tasty dishes. It'll make Camaro a much better car, and it'll keep Corvette honest. And for that, we say, "thank you."
.Jinx
That is not its mission.
Great mileage might not sell a lot of performance cars, but lousy mileage can hurt sales.
And fuel economy doesn't just matter when commuting. A lighter more aerodynamic car will consume less fuel for a given lap time, all else being comparable. It'll go further / cost less on road trips too, whether you're cruising or pushing hard.
But the basic point to be gleaned from all this? Mustang is serious business. It's not the same formula as Corvette, anymore than Corvette is the same formula as 911, but from the V6 with the track pack to the GT Premium to the Boss 302 to the GT500, it's some tasty dishes. It'll make Camaro a much better car, and it'll keep Corvette honest. And for that, we say, "thank you."
.Jinx
06-02-2012, 02:57 PM
#50
Melting Slicks
The only facts about the C7 are
1)smaller motor
2) different body then the c6
3) lighter car.
I happen to think a 650 HP Mustang is great!!I was going to actually wait and see what they look like are do on the road,but I got impatient!I'm a half a car guy most of the time and I love these "horsepower wars"!!!580 ZL1,650 MUSTANG,470 CHALLENGER...bring it on!The weight of the Stang will be overcome by all that power,make no mistake about it.It is designed to handle better too.I think the C7 will be in the 480 range for HP with the car at maybe 3000 even for weight.It's all good no matter what it is.I can't use the 436 I have now!!!
1)smaller motor
2) different body then the c6
3) lighter car.
I happen to think a 650 HP Mustang is great!!I was going to actually wait and see what they look like are do on the road,but I got impatient!I'm a half a car guy most of the time and I love these "horsepower wars"!!!580 ZL1,650 MUSTANG,470 CHALLENGER...bring it on!The weight of the Stang will be overcome by all that power,make no mistake about it.It is designed to handle better too.I think the C7 will be in the 480 range for HP with the car at maybe 3000 even for weight.It's all good no matter what it is.I can't use the 436 I have now!!!
I had a similar thought, but along the lines of torque rather than HP. Smaller displacement usually results in a reduction in torque, so it should be easier to handle.
06-02-2012, 03:06 PM
#51
Melting Slicks
Well it completely dominates the camaro and is ascending to the corvette. Puting blinders on to that doesnt make it less true. What you are essentially saying is backseat is only comparable to backseat cars which imo is silly. People shop based on what they want (luxury, looks, speed, commuter etc) coupled with what they can afford. The small minority is the one that will limit themselves to just a two seater imo.
I agree. I consider myself a "car guy" . . . I've owned and enjoyed a Pontiac Firebird TA, Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaros, a Dodge, a Plymouth. Hmm, any others?Anyway, I have no problem cross-shopping cars. Back seat or two-seater, not a major factor. Price is always a major factor. Anything above $50 gets real close scrutiny. I bought my C6 in the low $40's new . . . I doubt I will pay over $60K for a C7 if it elicits a "Meh" . . .
For true car guys, a Mustang ragtop is a fun vehicle, not a hated adversary. Horsepower? I rarely use all of it, which is produced at nearly rev limiter throttle.
Fun factor is what I'm after, I guess.
06-02-2012, 04:14 PM
#52
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Well it completely dominates the camaro and is ascending to the corvette. Puting blinders on to that doesnt make it less true. What you are essentially saying is backseat is only comparable to backseat cars which imo is silly. People shop based on what they want (luxury, looks, speed, commuter etc) coupled with what they can afford. The small minority is the one that will limit themselves to just a two seater imo.
It's silly to think that the Mustang is in the same class as a Corvette, just as silly it is to think the Camaro is. If that is the case then GM should just stop making Camaros.
All that said the GT500 seems like a blast to drive and has come a long way and kudos to Ford for that.
06-02-2012, 04:28 PM
#53
Melting Slicks
Whether it dominates the Camaro or not will not change the fact that they are true competitors. And there is much more differences b/w the Mustang and the Corvette than a backseat or not. It's substance, cache, etc......and just the car as a whole. If these things are not important to some and it's only about HP and performance then we can open discussions about other comparisons.
It's silly to think that the Mustang is in the same class as a Corvette, just as silly it is to think the Camaro is. If that is the case then GM should just stop making Camaros.
All that said the GT500 seems like a blast to drive and has come a long way and kudos to Ford for that.
It's silly to think that the Mustang is in the same class as a Corvette, just as silly it is to think the Camaro is. If that is the case then GM should just stop making Camaros.
All that said the GT500 seems like a blast to drive and has come a long way and kudos to Ford for that.
It's also just as silly to think most car guys don't cross-shop the sporty segments. Blast and kudos, indeed.
06-02-2012, 04:33 PM
#54
Le Mans Master
But how about the previous year GT500? How about the Camaro ZL1?
How about Mustang GT and Camaro SS which are nearly as quick for $20K less? How much faster will they go for a $5K investment? That's bang-for-the-buck.
Straight line, stock for stock, precisely at Corvette's price... buyers who are
over that should not buy a Corvette.Will GT500 steal some potential Corvette sales? You betcha. Enough for GM to go
over? Fat chance.GM will do what it's done for years. Corvette will be just powerful enough to be compelling. They'll not escalate the horsepower wars prematurely. They'll add power when they feel they have to, and not when Internet
says they MUST or they're DOOMED. And let's not forget, even a 1997 Corvette is so stupid-fast that if you uncork it in anger for more than a couple of seconds, your next ride will have flashing lights on top.
.Jinx
06-02-2012, 04:40 PM
#55
Le Mans Master
As to performance results, do a little research. The base C6 performance is outstanding and very well documented.
Last edited by jackhall99; 06-02-2012 at 04:45 PM.
06-02-2012, 05:55 PM
#56
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Jun 2004
Location: KADS- If it has wings or an engine, I can break it. Dallas TX
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I agree that the vette will need around 500 HP, to stay in the game. And these days, its seems big horsepower is not hard to do. Gotta love the modern horsepower wars. I just wonder if it can go any higher, which is what i thought in 2002 when I bought my Z06.
These cars are performance/sports cars. Of course car guys will cross shop. Unless you unlimted funds, then you just buy one of each. Thats how the high rollers, at barrett jackson do it.
And i'm one of the guys thinking about selling my Z06 for a Shelby convertible.
a. need more than 2 seats
b. been driving the old girl for 10 years, sometimes change is good/fun.
c. it a 660HP convertible, it should be a blast to drive on the street.
I know the "vette nutswingers" (love that term, lol) look down on Mustangs. I used to think the same way. I bought a Mazdaspeed Miata 3 years ago, which is a great driving car. All the Spec Miata racers think so too. wont be chasing down any vettes, but still a hoot to drive on twisty roads.
Your should have heard all the crap I took from my vette buddies. it doesn't even phase me anymore, I drive what I like. Not what some faceless strangers on the internet think I should drive. but I understand that this is a car forum, everybody is free to form/express their own opioions.
Plenty of time for more "hand wringing" before I can do a test drive.
Let the "nut swinging" continue.............. LOL
These cars are performance/sports cars. Of course car guys will cross shop. Unless you unlimted funds, then you just buy one of each. Thats how the high rollers, at barrett jackson do it.
And i'm one of the guys thinking about selling my Z06 for a Shelby convertible.
a. need more than 2 seats
b. been driving the old girl for 10 years, sometimes change is good/fun.
c. it a 660HP convertible, it should be a blast to drive on the street.
I know the "vette nutswingers" (love that term, lol) look down on Mustangs. I used to think the same way. I bought a Mazdaspeed Miata 3 years ago, which is a great driving car. All the Spec Miata racers think so too. wont be chasing down any vettes, but still a hoot to drive on twisty roads.
Your should have heard all the crap I took from my vette buddies. it doesn't even phase me anymore, I drive what I like. Not what some faceless strangers on the internet think I should drive. but I understand that this is a car forum, everybody is free to form/express their own opioions.
Plenty of time for more "hand wringing" before I can do a test drive.
Let the "nut swinging" continue.............. LOL
06-02-2012, 07:24 PM
#57
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Neither of those cars came close honestly. The gt500 was closest but the c6 being discounted into the floor really helped keep it the best buy. I sincerely doubt the c7 will see 0% and invoice pricing first or second or even third year into its run. Imo just fast enough to be compelling is 500hp. Anything less will compel me into a different car most likely.
I didn't say C6 wasn't great.
But how about the previous year GT500? How about the Camaro ZL1?
How about Mustang GT and Camaro SS which are nearly as quick for $20K less? How much faster will they go for a $5K investment? That's bang-for-the-buck.
Straight line, stock for stock, precisely at Corvette's price... buyers who are over that should not buy a Corvette.
Will GT500 steal some potential Corvette sales? You betcha. Enough for GM to go over? Fat chance.
GM will do what it's done for years. Corvette will be just powerful enough to be compelling. They'll not escalate the horsepower wars prematurely. They'll add power when they feel they have to, and not when Internet says they MUST or they're DOOMED.
And let's not forget, even a 1997 Corvette is so stupid-fast that if you uncork it in anger for more than a couple of seconds, your next ride will have flashing lights on top.
.Jinx
But how about the previous year GT500? How about the Camaro ZL1?
How about Mustang GT and Camaro SS which are nearly as quick for $20K less? How much faster will they go for a $5K investment? That's bang-for-the-buck.
Straight line, stock for stock, precisely at Corvette's price... buyers who are
over that should not buy a Corvette.Will GT500 steal some potential Corvette sales? You betcha. Enough for GM to go
over? Fat chance.GM will do what it's done for years. Corvette will be just powerful enough to be compelling. They'll not escalate the horsepower wars prematurely. They'll add power when they feel they have to, and not when Internet
says they MUST or they're DOOMED. And let's not forget, even a 1997 Corvette is so stupid-fast that if you uncork it in anger for more than a couple of seconds, your next ride will have flashing lights on top.
.Jinx
06-02-2012, 07:38 PM
#58
I'm guesstimating here but isn't a mustang 3850lbs to a c7 3100lbs give or take. Guesstimating again but isn't 100lbs equal to 1/10 in the 1/4 mile. In other words the stangs power increase will be totally negated from it being a pig. Plus a vette will out handle a stang all day long. Not to mention gearing settings.
Speed is more than just power.
Speed is more than just power.
Last edited by TA Racer; 06-02-2012 at 10:52 PM.
06-02-2012, 07:55 PM
#59
Le Mans Master
"A different car." You mean the 2013 Ford Mustang GT500. Be honest. Ford cranks up the boost and you're in love. Hey, that's okay. But be honest with yourself. This is not about Corvette's sudden (potential) inadequacy in the face of an advancing market, this is about one car. Don't feel bad. Don't dress down Corvette for not measuring up. It's just a car, not a girlfriend; you're not going to hurt its feelings because the new barista at Starbucks has even bigger-- ...gets you on an even deeper level. Go to the GT500. Put down a deposit now so that in mid-January, when you learn the C7 that tried to change for you but comes up short of those meaningful measurements, you can place your GT500 order and get it quickly. What matters isn't that you're loyal, what matters is that you're happy.
Seriously. Recognize when you're twitterpated. Heck, get the convertible -- life's better topless, right? (Talk about outshining -- the real story of the GT500 isn't its 650hp trump, it's the fact that its ragtop is only $2000 more.)
.Jinx
Seriously. Recognize when you're twitterpated. Heck, get the convertible -- life's better topless, right? (Talk about outshining -- the real story of the GT500 isn't its 650hp trump, it's the fact that its ragtop is only $2000 more.)
.Jinx
06-02-2012, 07:57 PM
#60
Team Owner
No, not in only a mile, but all out top speed can be (and has been) over 190mph in a manual transmissioned C6 LS3 coupe in the right conditions.
Probably still well over 180mph in even just average conditions.
No, was not meaning Z06 as that one is MUCH faster (10.9@128+mph bone stock and nearly 200mph bone stock). Others have gone 11.0s and 11.1s at over 127mph so it's not an isolated case.
The quickest 1/4 mile time for a bone stock C6 LS3 is the aforementioned 11.71@119.94mph (I was there that day) with others having gone high 11.7s and 11.8s as well.
I'm actually a little shocked/confused that so many fellow Corvette owners/enthusiasts are so uninformed about what these cars are truly capable of.
Probably still well over 180mph in even just average conditions.
The quickest 1/4 mile time for a bone stock C6 LS3 is the aforementioned 11.71@119.94mph (I was there that day) with others having gone high 11.7s and 11.8s as well.
I'm actually a little shocked/confused that so many fellow Corvette owners/enthusiasts are so uninformed about what these cars are truly capable of.