What will be the single big new capability of the C7 that will drive sales?
07-29-2012, 05:21 PM
#1161
Le Mans Master
All depends on what one is willing to spend.
A base C6 coupe weights 3217 lbs.
1)subtract the 136 pounds if it had the Z06's aluminum frame = 3081 pounds.
2)subtract the 10 pounds if it had the Z06's Mg engine cradle = 3071 pounds.
3)subtract the 7 pounds if it had the Z06's carbon fiber skinned floorboards = 3064 pounds.
4) subtract approximately 30 pounds if it had carbon fiber front fenders(base C6 style) and innerliners = 3034 pounds.
Subtract approximately 11 pounds if it had a carbon fiber hood(base C6/Z06 style) = 3023 pounds.
5) subtract approximately 10 pounds if it had the ZR1's carbon fiber roof and halo = 3013 pounds.
3013 pounds and not neccessary to reduce the cars size .0001 of an inch.
Now you're knocking on a sub 3000 pound C7 especially if a lighter rear hatch/window is in the design along with carbon fiber rear quarter panels and door skins. Add in a carbon fiber propshaft, Mg rear crossmember and you dropped another 75 pounds off the C6's 3013 weight(after using all the light weight parts currently in GM's parts bins).
If GM could(and they can) build a C6 today that weighs ~ 3013 pounds, there is no reason the C7 can't come in at ~2950 pounds. All depends on how much you are willing to spend. All those weight reduction items comes at a price.
A base C6 coupe weights 3217 lbs.
1)subtract the 136 pounds if it had the Z06's aluminum frame = 3081 pounds.
2)subtract the 10 pounds if it had the Z06's Mg engine cradle = 3071 pounds.
3)subtract the 7 pounds if it had the Z06's carbon fiber skinned floorboards = 3064 pounds.
4) subtract approximately 30 pounds if it had carbon fiber front fenders(base C6 style) and innerliners = 3034 pounds.
Subtract approximately 11 pounds if it had a carbon fiber hood(base C6/Z06 style) = 3023 pounds.
5) subtract approximately 10 pounds if it had the ZR1's carbon fiber roof and halo = 3013 pounds.
3013 pounds and not neccessary to reduce the cars size .0001 of an inch.
Now you're knocking on a sub 3000 pound C7 especially if a lighter rear hatch/window is in the design along with carbon fiber rear quarter panels and door skins. Add in a carbon fiber propshaft, Mg rear crossmember and you dropped another 75 pounds off the C6's 3013 weight(after using all the light weight parts currently in GM's parts bins).
If GM could(and they can) build a C6 today that weighs ~ 3013 pounds, there is no reason the C7 can't come in at ~2950 pounds. All depends on how much you are willing to spend. All those weight reduction items comes at a price.
You lead off by stating "it all depends on what one is willing to spend.", and ending by stating "how much you are willing to spend." No kidding! Many of us have been saying that.
Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done. Hell, we all KNOW it CAN be done. But the elements you mention are not free. The base Corvette could be priced at carbon Z06 levels, or higher, and achieve this weight goal. And the Corvette as we know it would then be doomed. GM may sell 2,000 to 3,000 of these $100,000 cars.
07-29-2012, 05:39 PM
#1162
Team Owner
You seem to be "digging" at Mike. Not sure you are meaning to though.
You lead off by stating "it all depends on what one is willing to spend.", and ending by stating "how much you are willing to spend." No kidding! Many of us have been saying that.
Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done. Hell, we all KNOW it CAN be done. But the elements you mention are not free. The base Corvette could be priced at carbon Z06 levels, or higher, and achieve this weight goal. And the Corvette as we know it would then be doomed. GM may sell 2,000 to 3,000 of these $100,000 cars.
You lead off by stating "it all depends on what one is willing to spend.", and ending by stating "how much you are willing to spend." No kidding! Many of us have been saying that.
Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done. Hell, we all KNOW it CAN be done. But the elements you mention are not free. The base Corvette could be priced at carbon Z06 levels, or higher, and achieve this weight goal. And the Corvette as we know it would then be doomed. GM may sell 2,000 to 3,000 of these $100,000 cars.
When GM started working on carbon fiber parts for the C5 Z06 and then the C6 Z, the word was that they were also working on developing a filler for the SMC body parts that was almost as light as carbon fiber, but not much more in cost over the Fiberglas that is presently used as a filler in the SMC panels. If GM has worked out the details on the material, another 100 pounds could be saved with the new lightweight body panels. I was listing the items, and their weight savings, that are currently available for the C6 that would reduce the base C6's weight, to show it is possible to build a C7 under 3000 pounds, without making the C7 into a tiny little car that no one wants.
Are people willing to spend more to get more? Look at a Pontiac Solstice vs a Corvette C6. 4 banger vs a V8, room for more then one change of underwear in the back with the C6, etc. . It looks as if they are willing to pay more to get more. $25,000 vs $50,000.
07-29-2012, 05:57 PM
#1163
Le Mans Master
.. I'm just stating that a C6, using current parts, can come in a little over 3000 pounds. ... I was listing the items, and their weight savings, that are currently available for the C6 that would reduce the base C6's weight, to show it is possible to build a C7 under 3000 pounds, ... We all agree on this.
Are people willing to spend more to get more? Look at a Pontiac Solstice vs a Corvette C6. 4 banger vs a V8, room for more then one change of underwear in the back with the C6, etc. . It looks as if they are willing to pay more to get more. $25,000 vs $50,000.
Are people willing to spend more to get more? Look at a Pontiac Solstice vs a Corvette C6. 4 banger vs a V8, room for more then one change of underwear in the back with the C6, etc. . It looks as if they are willing to pay more to get more. $25,000 vs $50,000.
As to the Solstice vs. C6 comparison: not in the same ball park. Folks are aware a Corvette starts at $50K~ while a totally different class of car starts at $25K. Yes, many were willing to spend the money on the Corvette rather than the Solstice (or Miata).
Now raise $50K C6 up to $100K for openers and see what happens to your market. An undergrad business major, no probably a sharp high school student, could give the correct answer to that.
07-29-2012, 06:23 PM
#1164
Team Owner
Well, the technology you mention is not available yet, ergo the Z07 package and other carbon fiber packages that drive a Z06 3Lz to $103K plus change. The only reason I know the price is because I was at my dealer talking last Wednesday!
As to the Solstice vs. C6 comparison: not in the same ball park. Folks are aware a Corvette starts at $50K~ while a totally different class of car starts at $25K. Yes, many were willing to spend the money on the Corvette rather than the Solstice (or Miata).
Now raise $50K C6 up to $100K for openers and see what happens to your market. An undergrad business major, no probably a sharp high school student, could give the correct answer to that.
As to the Solstice vs. C6 comparison: not in the same ball park. Folks are aware a Corvette starts at $50K~ while a totally different class of car starts at $25K. Yes, many were willing to spend the money on the Corvette rather than the Solstice (or Miata).
Now raise $50K C6 up to $100K for openers and see what happens to your market. An undergrad business major, no probably a sharp high school student, could give the correct answer to that.
The mold for making the C6's carbon fiber filler parts(Z06 front fenders) are not the same as the molds for making parts using the fiberglass filler. There is a different shrinkage rate after molding, between the two materials and one set of molds can not be used for both fillers. The best time to make the change to the new SMC is when you are building all new molds for all new body panels, not spending a 3-4 million dollars for new molds for a model(C6) that is at the end of it's life span. That money has to be spent for the new C7 molds so that is the time to make a material change. But, I'm not saying GM is, or is not, changing the material.
In addition to the styling change in the C7, you want that "new and improved" factor that helps drive sales. If you use the new material on the outgoing model in it's last year of production, you can't call it "new and improved" on the new model.
Last edited by JoesC5; 07-29-2012 at 06:33 PM.
07-29-2012, 06:31 PM
#1165
Le Mans Master
How do you know the technology doesn't exist for making the lightweight body panels? ie the lightweight filler.
The mold for making the C6's carbon fiber filler parts(Z06 front fenders) are not the same as the molds for making parts using the fiberglass filler. There is a different shrinkage rate after molding, between the two materials and one set of molds can not be used for both fillers. The best time to make the change to the new SMC is when you are building all new molds for all new body panels, not spending a 3-4 million dollars for new molds for a model(C6) that is at the end of it's life span. That money has to be spent for the new C7 molds so that is the time to make a material change. But, I'm not saying GM is, or is not, changing the material.
The mold for making the C6's carbon fiber filler parts(Z06 front fenders) are not the same as the molds for making parts using the fiberglass filler. There is a different shrinkage rate after molding, between the two materials and one set of molds can not be used for both fillers. The best time to make the change to the new SMC is when you are building all new molds for all new body panels, not spending a 3-4 million dollars for new molds for a model(C6) that is at the end of it's life span. That money has to be spent for the new C7 molds so that is the time to make a material change. But, I'm not saying GM is, or is not, changing the material.
07-29-2012, 06:55 PM
#1166
Team Owner
A $50,400.00 base MSRP is possible (and I too am hopeful for it) but I have to be more realistic and guess closer to around/just under $52k but also resulting in a car that's worth every single penny of it.
It is a very practical daily driver. You would be surprised at how many people think it is a rough riding, gas sucking ride. I have taken several 800 mile trips in my C5 and C6 and both were very comfortable. Not to mention how much luggage they will hold. All while getting 28 mpg on the freeway. I only get 28 because I let the horses run free whenever I get the chance.
100%
07-29-2012, 07:03 PM
#1167
Team Owner
You lead off by stating "it all depends on what one is willing to spend.", and ending by stating "how much you are willing to spend." No kidding! Many of us have been saying that.
Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done. Hell, we all KNOW it CAN be done. But the elements you mention are not free. The base Corvette could be priced at carbon Z06 levels, or higher, and achieve this weight goal. And the Corvette as we know it would then be doomed. GM may sell 2,000 to 3,000 of these $100,000 cars.
Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done. Hell, we all KNOW it CAN be done. But the elements you mention are not free. The base Corvette could be priced at carbon Z06 levels, or higher, and achieve this weight goal. And the Corvette as we know it would then be doomed. GM may sell 2,000 to 3,000 of these $100,000 cars.
That laundry list of weight reduction items certainly does make a 3000 pound curb weight very possible but it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the base car will incorporate ALL of that.An aluminum frame? Possibly.
Magnesium front cradle/roof panel/carbon fiber body panels? Not likely.
But I wouldn't doubt that at least some of the C6 Z06's/ZR1's (or maybe even some that those two cars don't even have yet) other weight savings technologies might find their way onto the base C7.
07-29-2012, 09:59 PM
#1168
Team Owner
Here is an example of new technology regarding SMC for automotive use. While we don't always see or hear about it, the car companies and their suppliers are always working on new technologies. Just because a new technology isn't in production today doesn't mean it won't be next year.
http://www.speautomotive.com/SPEA_CD..._berger_gm.pdf
or
http://www.patents.com/us-5506039.html
or
http://www.devileye.net/catalog/fin-...materials.html
or
[url]http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/resin-systems-update-the-greening-of-thermosets[/ur
Or, did you know that GM considered using another material instead of a composite for the C6....
"In the end, the new Chevrolet C6
Corvette retained composite body panels,
but a material change was contemplated.
“It was a closer call than you might think
to stay with composites,” said David
Mattis, Director of GM’s Materials &
Appearance Engineering Center.
As another possibility, could GM be thinking of an aluminum body C7. The Solstice and the Sky has hydro formed steel body panels, and Ford has announced that the new F150 will have aluminum body panels. Since the outer body panels on a Corvette are not part of the superstructure, aluminum might not be to bad an idea. You get one damaged; it's easy to remove a few screws and bolt another aluminum panel on, unlike a car with a monocoque body made of aluminum where the body is the structural member holding the car together.
As for carbon fiber, this new plant(opened in 2009) should help drive down the cost.
"Carbon fiber line moves toward startup
AKSA (Akrilic Kimya Sanayii AS, Istanbul, Turkey) continues to advance its new carbon fiber manufacturing program, with the announcement that its full-scale production line in Turkey, capable of producing 1,500 metric tonnes (3.3 million lb) of carbon fiber per annum, is nearing completion and scheduled for startup in mid-2009. AKSA operates the largest acrylic fiber facility in the world, representing 12 percent of worldwide capacity, and is currently using its acrylic material to create carbon fiber precursor in a pilot production line. The company also announced on Feb. 27 that it has formed an exclusive marketing relationship with DeLong and Associates LLC (Atlanta, Ga.). The latter will represent AKSA’s new AKSACA carbon fiber in the Americas."
http://www.speautomotive.com/SPEA_CD..._berger_gm.pdf
or
http://www.patents.com/us-5506039.html
or
http://www.devileye.net/catalog/fin-...materials.html
or
[url]http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/resin-systems-update-the-greening-of-thermosets[/ur
Or, did you know that GM considered using another material instead of a composite for the C6....
"In the end, the new Chevrolet C6
Corvette retained composite body panels,
but a material change was contemplated.
“It was a closer call than you might think
to stay with composites,” said David
Mattis, Director of GM’s Materials &
Appearance Engineering Center.
As another possibility, could GM be thinking of an aluminum body C7. The Solstice and the Sky has hydro formed steel body panels, and Ford has announced that the new F150 will have aluminum body panels. Since the outer body panels on a Corvette are not part of the superstructure, aluminum might not be to bad an idea. You get one damaged; it's easy to remove a few screws and bolt another aluminum panel on, unlike a car with a monocoque body made of aluminum where the body is the structural member holding the car together.
As for carbon fiber, this new plant(opened in 2009) should help drive down the cost.
"Carbon fiber line moves toward startup
AKSA (Akrilic Kimya Sanayii AS, Istanbul, Turkey) continues to advance its new carbon fiber manufacturing program, with the announcement that its full-scale production line in Turkey, capable of producing 1,500 metric tonnes (3.3 million lb) of carbon fiber per annum, is nearing completion and scheduled for startup in mid-2009. AKSA operates the largest acrylic fiber facility in the world, representing 12 percent of worldwide capacity, and is currently using its acrylic material to create carbon fiber precursor in a pilot production line. The company also announced on Feb. 27 that it has formed an exclusive marketing relationship with DeLong and Associates LLC (Atlanta, Ga.). The latter will represent AKSA’s new AKSACA carbon fiber in the Americas."
Last edited by JoesC5; 07-29-2012 at 10:58 PM.
07-29-2012, 10:49 PM
#1170
Team Owner
I think that to get to 3000 lbs they are going to have to do a high performance version of the "narrow body" car. But truthfully, 3000 is very hard in a car with 500 hp because of all the support systems to handle that much power. Keep in mind that if they could make smaller tires, wheels and brakes, they could reduce not only total weight, but unsprung and rotating weight - which is even better.
I think to do it would also likely require getting rid of some options - like power seats and the full feature sound system for instance. History shows that not many people really want a stripped Corvette.
I think to do it would also likely require getting rid of some options - like power seats and the full feature sound system for instance. History shows that not many people really want a stripped Corvette.
07-29-2012, 11:04 PM
#1171
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2000
Location: North Dallas 40 TX
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I think that to get to 3000 lbs they are going to have to do a high performance version of the "narrow body" car. But truthfully, 3000 is very hard in a car with 500 hp because of all the support systems to handle that much power. Keep in mind that if they could make smaller tires, wheels and brakes, they could reduce not only total weight, but unsprung and rotating weight - which is even better.
I think to do it would also likely require getting rid of some options - like power seats and the full feature sound system for instance. History shows that not many people really want a stripped Corvette.
I think to do it would also likely require getting rid of some options - like power seats and the full feature sound system for instance. History shows that not many people really want a stripped Corvette.
Oh, I think they will have an easier time getting the base model under 3000 pounds. The dry sump system adds weight, as do the wider and bigger tires and wheels; which as you noted have other detriments as well.
07-29-2012, 11:06 PM
#1172
Team Owner
I think that to get to 3000 lbs they are going to have to do a high performance version of the "narrow body" car. But truthfully, 3000 is very hard in a car with 500 hp because of all the support systems to handle that much power. Keep in mind that if they could make smaller tires, wheels and brakes, they could reduce not only total weight, but unsprung and rotating weight - which is even better.
I think to do it would also likely require getting rid of some options - like power seats and the full feature sound system for instance. History shows that not many people really want a stripped Corvette.
I think to do it would also likely require getting rid of some options - like power seats and the full feature sound system for instance. History shows that not many people really want a stripped Corvette.
Last edited by JoesC5; 07-29-2012 at 11:38 PM.
07-30-2012, 12:35 AM
#1174
Team Owner
I think that to get to 3000 lbs they are going to have to do a high performance version of the "narrow body" car. But truthfully, 3000 is very hard in a car with 500 hp because of all the support systems to handle that much power. Keep in mind that if they could make smaller tires, wheels and brakes, they could reduce not only total weight, but unsprung and rotating weight - which is even better.
I think to do it would also likely require getting rid of some options - like power seats and the full feature sound system for instance. History shows that not many people really want a stripped Corvette.
I think to do it would also likely require getting rid of some options - like power seats and the full feature sound system for instance. History shows that not many people really want a stripped Corvette.
Too much power will likely demand the use of those aforementioned bigger brakes and wider wheels/tires than do tend to add so much more weight.
Also true.
07-30-2012, 02:41 AM
#1175
Drifting
[QUOTE=LS1LT1;1581436367An aluminum frame? Possibly.
[/QUOTE]
I have no insider info, don't know a single person who knows a single person who has anything to do the the C7. But, I would bet my C6 that we will see an aluminum frame across the board with the C7.
[/QUOTE]
I have no insider info, don't know a single person who knows a single person who has anything to do the the C7. But, I would bet my C6 that we will see an aluminum frame across the board with the C7.
07-30-2012, 02:43 AM
#1176
Drifting
Isn't it like adding 100 hp? Thought I read somwehere that 100 lbs either way equates to about 50 HP?
07-30-2012, 03:09 AM
#1177
Team Owner
Top speed might be different, but when talking about 1/4 mile acceleration it is widely know that 100 pounds in weight in equal to roughly a full tenth.
10 horsepower (or perhaps 10 rear wheel horsepower?) is also equal to roughly one full tenth (give or take a few thousandths).
07-30-2012, 03:21 AM
#1178
Drifting
Yes, I agree that is very possible, maybe even probable.
200 pounds equaling roughly 20hp sounds about right.
Top speed might be different, but when talking about 1/4 mile acceleration it is widely know that 100 pounds in weight in equal to roughly a full tenth.
10 horsepower (or perhaps 10 rear wheel horsepower?) is also equal to roughly one full tenth (give or take a few thousandths).
200 pounds equaling roughly 20hp sounds about right.
Top speed might be different, but when talking about 1/4 mile acceleration it is widely know that 100 pounds in weight in equal to roughly a full tenth.
10 horsepower (or perhaps 10 rear wheel horsepower?) is also equal to roughly one full tenth (give or take a few thousandths).
That is an absolutle MUST if they want to drop weight.
07-30-2012, 10:53 AM
#1179
Team Owner
Very true, if you don't have the .gov forcing you to meet gas mileage requirements. But, we have a .gov that is acting as a dictatorship, and is forcing us to purchase products they are designing, not products designed by companies that are meeting the wants and needs of their customer.
Take the Z06. One of GM's prime concerns when designing the car was keeping the car away from the gas guzzler tax. They could have built it with a steel frame, etc, adding 175 pounds to the cars weight and then added another 18 HP to the engine to overcome the weight penalty, and the extra horsepower would then consumer more gas, further hurting the Z06's gas mileage. And it would not get the excellent gas mileage that the Z06 gets and would increase the car's cost by a couple thousand dollars.
So, is it really cheaper to add 20 horsepower vs reducing the weight by 200 pounds?
Take the Z06. One of GM's prime concerns when designing the car was keeping the car away from the gas guzzler tax. They could have built it with a steel frame, etc, adding 175 pounds to the cars weight and then added another 18 HP to the engine to overcome the weight penalty, and the extra horsepower would then consumer more gas, further hurting the Z06's gas mileage. And it would not get the excellent gas mileage that the Z06 gets and would increase the car's cost by a couple thousand dollars.
So, is it really cheaper to add 20 horsepower vs reducing the weight by 200 pounds?
Last edited by JoesC5; 07-31-2012 at 01:34 PM.