2500 lb C7 Corvette possible?
07-02-2012, 05:02 PM
#41
I think one useful area to attack with carbon fiber products is the unsprung weight of the car. Featherlight wheels, that make OEM wheels, CCWs and OZ racing wheels look like lead bricks by comparison, have always been available, but cost something like $10,000 for four. I would imagine that an order for tens of thousands of those wheels could reduce the cost substantially, and although the weight savings over current stock wheels might only be 30lbs, 30lbs off of unsprung weight is a substantial savings.
For street cars, the Volk CE28N and the Volk TE37 are incredibly light and strong. They are just forged aluminum but hot-forged at extremely high pressure. Also, the alloy might be more exotic than expected. Upgrade Motoring lists the Volk TE37 Corvette wheels in 19 x 12 + 57 and 18 x 9.5 +35. Then Vivid Racing says that they are discontinued.
On the 32-valve Northstar engine for the Corvette:
It would be a high-output Northstar and not a Cadillac Northstar. It would have horsepower-per-liter similar to the 2013 Ford Mustang 5.0. And the Corvette would get better fuel mileage than the Mustang because the Corvette weighs less and is pushing less air.
But they have talked about a turbocharged V6 for the Corvette. It could happen at any year point. A 32-valve Northstar, on the other hand, keeps the balance of a V8. Also, we see from the Lincoln LS that a 32-valve V8 has no problem as small as 3.9L.
The 2013 Ford Mustang 5.0 V8 makes 420 horsepower.
.
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Last edited by B Stead; 07-02-2012 at 06:18 PM.
07-02-2012, 05:20 PM
#42
Race Director
Back in the mid-80's there was a company called "Monster Miatas", which converted new-build Miatas to be equipped with Ford 5.0L V-8's. I came close to getting one, especially after driving one, but decided on a new Firebird Trans Am, instead. This is the best I can do about recollecting that vehicle. It was a pocket rocket!
Seriously great fun, I'm told.
07-02-2012, 05:25 PM
#43
Melting Slicks
After driving the V-8 Miata, I told the guy, "You don't drive this thing, you AIM it." He laughed, but I walked. Crazy fast car.
07-02-2012, 07:57 PM
#44
The Consigliere
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A few years back, carbon fiber wheels broke in GP motorcycle road racing and they are not popular. They should work but I don't know where they are currently used.
For street cars, the Volk CE28N and the Volk TE37 are incredibly light and strong. They are just forged aluminum but hot-forged at extremely high pressure. Also, the alloy might be more exotic than expected. Upgrade Motoring lists the Volk TE37 Corvette wheels in 19 x 12 + 57 and 18 x 9.5 +35. Then Vivid Racing says that they are discontinued.
On the 32-valve Northstar engine for the Corvette:
It would be a high-output Northstar and not a Cadillac Northstar. It would have horsepower-per-liter similar to the 2013 Ford Mustang 5.0. And the Corvette would get better fuel mileage than the Mustang because the Corvette weighs less and is pushing less air.
But they have talked about a turbocharged V6 for the Corvette. It could happen at any year point. A 32-valve Northstar, on the other hand, keeps the balance of a V8. Also, we see from the Lincoln LS that a 32-valve V8 has no problem as small as 3.9L.
The 2013 Ford Mustang 5.0 V8 makes 420 horsepower.
.
.
For street cars, the Volk CE28N and the Volk TE37 are incredibly light and strong. They are just forged aluminum but hot-forged at extremely high pressure. Also, the alloy might be more exotic than expected. Upgrade Motoring lists the Volk TE37 Corvette wheels in 19 x 12 + 57 and 18 x 9.5 +35. Then Vivid Racing says that they are discontinued.
On the 32-valve Northstar engine for the Corvette:
It would be a high-output Northstar and not a Cadillac Northstar. It would have horsepower-per-liter similar to the 2013 Ford Mustang 5.0. And the Corvette would get better fuel mileage than the Mustang because the Corvette weighs less and is pushing less air.
But they have talked about a turbocharged V6 for the Corvette. It could happen at any year point. A 32-valve Northstar, on the other hand, keeps the balance of a V8. Also, we see from the Lincoln LS that a 32-valve V8 has no problem as small as 3.9L.
The 2013 Ford Mustang 5.0 V8 makes 420 horsepower.
.
.
With all due respect, I don't understand your fixation with the Northstar engine for use in the C7. Compared to the current LS series engines, the Northstar is inferior as to
1) size/packaging,
2) weight,
3) hp,
4) power under the curve (common for 4/multi-valve engines),
5) efficiency,
6) higher center of mass (negative to handling),
7) cost (since it wouldn't likely be leveraged across as many platforms as the Vette engine base architecture is).
I frankly don't want a heavier, physically larger, more difficult to package, more expensive, torque deficient engine in my sports car in general, my Vettes in particular.
07-02-2012, 07:59 PM
#45
Melting Slicks
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B Stead, I'm curious why you're pushing the Northstar engine so much. Why do you feel the new LS series of engines (or even the Gen IV for that matter) will be inadequate?
<edit> Damn OnPoint beat me by 2 minutes. I guess his screen name is pretty accurate.
<edit> Damn OnPoint beat me by 2 minutes. I guess his screen name is pretty accurate.
The problem with using the power per liter measure is you get an underpowered car that way. The LS engines are getting more power per pound and physical dimensions than the other manufacturers. That is why people are replacing BMW, Miata, 944, 911 and older Nissan Z engines with LS engines. They get more power, for the same or less weight in a smaller overall size package. The Northstar is dead because it weighs too much, is too big and is too complicated. You don't see people putting them or Ford OHC engines in other cars with smaller displacement OHC engines since they don't fit. Late last year one of the other instructors at a WGI driving school took me for a ride in his LS1 powered 944. I asked him why he made the switch and his answer was reliability, less maintenance while at the track, more power, less weight and better performance. The car was awesome on the track, it cornered like it was on rails and ran as fast or faster than most of the top dog cars that were there that day and when he finished the session he pulled into the garage and walked away until the next session.
You start going with a smaller displacement OHC V6 with a Supercharger on it and you get a heavier engine with larger outside dimensions. All that crap necessary to place the cams on the top of the engine adds weight higher in the car and requires more room for the engine.
Bill
You start going with a smaller displacement OHC V6 with a Supercharger on it and you get a heavier engine with larger outside dimensions. All that crap necessary to place the cams on the top of the engine adds weight higher in the car and requires more room for the engine.
Bill
07-02-2012, 10:44 PM
#46
Le Mans Master
I think one useful area to attack with carbon fiber products is the unsprung weight of the car. Featherlight wheels, that make OEM wheels, CCWs and OZ racing wheels look like lead bricks by comparison, have always been available, but cost something like $10,000 for four. I would imagine that an order for tens of thousands of those wheels could reduce the cost substantially, and although the weight savings over current stock wheels might only be 30lbs, 30lbs off of unsprung weight is a substantial savings.
.Jinx
07-02-2012, 10:58 PM
#47
Le Mans Master
Also, we see from the Lincoln LS that a 32-valve V8 has no problem as small as 3.9L.
You keep saying Northstar would be better, but you fail to provide any believable reasoning to support your case.
.Jinx
07-02-2012, 11:04 PM
#48
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St. Jude Donor '09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Back in the mid-80's there was a company called "Monster Miatas", which converted new-build Miatas to be equipped with Ford 5.0L V-8's. I came close to getting one, especially after driving one, but decided on a new Firebird Trans Am, instead. This is the best I can do about recollecting that vehicle. It was a pocket rocket!
My buddy has a Monster Miata with a Ford 302.
Here's a Miata with a LS1
I have a Flying Miata turbo that puts out 275 HP without the added weight and cost of a V8. Still weighs 2,460 lbs., power to weight ratio rules.
07-03-2012, 02:26 AM
#49
Team Owner
I dig those Monster Miatas but like the Miata LSx conversions even more. 
I sure hope it's not for the very same reasons that we've all seen others cling to in the past...that typical cliche' (but somewhat misinformed) "old tech" versus "new tech" thing....or the usual "hey, DOHCs/multi valves per cylinder are what most of the European and Japanese manufacturers use so Corvettes should have it too!" 
07-03-2012, 03:45 AM
#50
Advanced
http://www.araoengineering.com/
The guy who runs the company is an unscrupulous #$%^&%^$ and he wanted so much to license it to GM that they told him never and they'd just wait till the patent ran out. He also seems to like to take peoples money and not deliver anything other than empty promises. But if the patent were to expire tomorrow, GM would suddenly start producing 4 valve pushrod heads and the SBC would get a huge performance boost with very little weight gain and almost no increase in internal friction.
07-03-2012, 09:17 AM
#51
The Consigliere
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I sure hope it's not for the very same reasons that we've all seen others cling to in the past...that typical cliche' (but somewhat misinformed) "old tech" versus "new tech" thing....or the usual "hey, DOHCs/multi valves per cylinder are what most of the European and Japanese manufacturers use so Corvettes should have it too!"
I always chuckle when I see that, and you're right, one sees it often.
Truth is, OHC technology had widespread application in aircraft and motor vehicles prior to OHV technology. Thus the old tech is actually OHC.
Simple fact of the matter is that neither one is new tech, and they each offer advantages and disadvantages relative to the other.
In our market - where the controlling government doesn't tax displacement (for now anyway), OHV has many advantages over OHC for the Vette.
07-03-2012, 10:45 AM
#52
Le Mans Master
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As you know less weight has many advantages than just improving pounds/hp.
I am one of the strange ones that is all for less weight, even to the sacrifice of some creature comforts. Maybe they could make something like the BMW CSL and Porsche Club Sport lightweight models. Manual everything except windows. Surprisingly electric windows on the Elise saved a couple of pounds.
The C6 aluminum frame is about 136 punds lighter than the steel frame IIRC. so it should be easy to get that kind of weight savings out of the base model.
07-03-2012, 11:24 AM
#53
Le Mans Master
In the US market? Was it real or did it evaporate under SAE standards?
The base model Z06 is this, but most Z06s get optioned up. I doubt there are more than a handful of buyers interested in a more-expensive-lightweight version of the base Corvette, e.g. narrow body with more expensive lightweight wheels and more expensive lightweight body panels and no options. Something tells me people would want to check the lightweight options and then add 3LT or 4LT... see C5 Z06.
As for the frame, we all want the lighter-weight frame to be standard on C7
.Jinx
I am one of the strange ones that is all for less weight, even to the sacrifice of some creature comforts. Maybe they could make something like the BMW CSL and Porsche Club Sport lightweight models. Manual everything except windows. Surprisingly electric windows on the Elise saved a couple of pounds.
As for the frame, we all want the lighter-weight frame to be standard on C7
.Jinx
07-03-2012, 03:05 PM
#54
Burning Brakes
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Under 2500#, is possible but unlikely due to expense. There would be massive amounts of titantium and carbon fiber to be possible. No AC, no radio, etc.
Its kinda funny to me to hear about all the weight reduction everyone wants in the vette. Porsche is one of the leaders in small lightweight cars. Which has been the at the very heart of sports car racing for decades.... American cars (vettes, camaros, mustangs) big cars with, high HP. vs. European cars, small, lightweight, adaquate HP.
The Battle still continues, the more that things change, the more they stay the same.
Its kinda funny to me to hear about all the weight reduction everyone wants in the vette. Porsche is one of the leaders in small lightweight cars. Which has been the at the very heart of sports car racing for decades.... American cars (vettes, camaros, mustangs) big cars with, high HP. vs. European cars, small, lightweight, adaquate HP.
The Battle still continues, the more that things change, the more they stay the same.
Last edited by 2K3Z06; 07-03-2012 at 03:07 PM.
07-03-2012, 03:45 PM
#55
Burning Brakes
The C6 doesnt even have a spare tire, for weight savings I suspect.
The saftey equipment may be upgraded in the C7, that means more airbags and thats adds weight.
I still dont see why it doesnt have a spare tire, but i've read how allot of auto makers are seeing into not having a spare tire to save weight and adding a can of fix a flat and a inflater.
At least my old C4 has a spare tire, thanks C4 engineers.
The saftey equipment may be upgraded in the C7, that means more airbags and thats adds weight.
I still dont see why it doesnt have a spare tire, but i've read how allot of auto makers are seeing into not having a spare tire to save weight and adding a can of fix a flat and a inflater.
At least my old C4 has a spare tire, thanks C4 engineers.
Last edited by rad928music; 07-03-2012 at 03:47 PM. Reason: change
07-03-2012, 03:50 PM
#56
Race Director
I always chuckle when I see that, and you're right, one sees it often.
Truth is, OHC technology had widespread application in aircraft and motor vehicles prior to OHV technology. Thus the old tech is actually OHC.
Simple fact of the matter is that neither one is new tech, and they each offer advantages and disadvantages relative to the other.
In our market - where the controlling government doesn't tax displacement (for now anyway), OHV has many advantages over OHC for the Vette.
Truth is, OHC technology had widespread application in aircraft and motor vehicles prior to OHV technology. Thus the old tech is actually OHC.
Simple fact of the matter is that neither one is new tech, and they each offer advantages and disadvantages relative to the other.
In our market - where the controlling government doesn't tax displacement (for now anyway), OHV has many advantages over OHC for the Vette.
Yup - a Dusenberg Model J (1928 - 1937), for example, had a 8 cyl DOHC 4 valve/cyl engine of 420 ci and 265 hp. Hot for its day - yes! New tech now - uh, no!
07-03-2012, 05:57 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
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The C6 doesnt even have a spare tire, for weight savings I suspect.
The saftey equipment may be upgraded in the C7, that means more airbags and thats adds weight.
I still dont see why it doesnt have a spare tire, but i've read how allot of auto makers are seeing into not having a spare tire to save weight and adding a can of fix a flat and a inflater.
At least my old C4 has a spare tire, thanks C4 engineers.
The saftey equipment may be upgraded in the C7, that means more airbags and thats adds weight.
I still dont see why it doesnt have a spare tire, but i've read how allot of auto makers are seeing into not having a spare tire to save weight and adding a can of fix a flat and a inflater.
At least my old C4 has a spare tire, thanks C4 engineers.
Also, I might be wrong, but the C5/C6 has less ground clearance than the C4. I imagine that makes it more difficult to get a jack under the car while on the side of the road.
Last edited by vant; 07-03-2012 at 05:59 PM.
07-03-2012, 07:53 PM
#58
Somba master
07-03-2012, 08:17 PM
#59
The Consigliere
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I could see 200 pounds. Al frame alone is nearly 140 pound difference. Getting another 60 would be impressive, tho.
