If C7 has a DI engine, any chance of F/I?
10-05-2012, 10:41 PM
#1
If C7 has a DI engine, any chance of F/I?
I've been told, even by experienced tuners that DI engines are much more complex to tune than none-DI like the current LS engines.
So my question to those experience tuners, is that, what's the chance of adding F/I (SC or Turbos) to this new engine?
Thank you in advance!
So my question to those experience tuners, is that, what's the chance of adding F/I (SC or Turbos) to this new engine?
Thank you in advance!
10-05-2012, 11:42 PM
#2
Drifting
Tuning from what I understand is different, not so much harder. All engines can be tuned though. The GTR's ecu was supposedly uncrackable and was... for about 6 months or less I believe.
To answer your question yes, these will be super/turbocharged engines though, they compliment each other perfectly. To have a production ready, safe engine you need to have high compression, but low boost, more frequently low compression and decent psi. The problem being heat which causes detonation prematurely. With direct injection, the gasoline cools the incoming air. Thus more compression can be had without worry of detonation. The result is engines like the 458 which run I believe 12.1 to 1 compression n/a which is unheard of on pump gas, or forced induction cars with say, 10.5 compression and 15psi. Audi/vw turbo 2.0 is direct injection I believe, cobalt ss/sky/solstice/ats/everything else with the 2.0 turbo is direct injection, Audi's new supercharged 6 is, Jag's soon to be release supercharged 6 is, bww's turbo'd engines are all direct injection as are Ford's ecoboost. The number of forced induction direct injection engines far outway the naturally aspirated ones. Ferraris v8 and v12's are, the camaro v6 as well as genesis v6 is, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head actually. That tells that you don't need that big of an engine anymore, ran with f/i and d/i, to make a but ton of power.
The only thing even REMOTELY comparable to what the new engines will be capable of is the 458 engine, and that's a stretch. Not nearly that many rpm's, but hopefully still 6.2L. 470hp should be no problem with that size, but a 5.5 could make that kind of power as well. In fact, based on the 6.4 hemi with variable cam timing(470hp), if a 6.2 direct injection/variable cam timing only makes 470hp, that's pretty sad.
To answer your question yes, these will be super/turbocharged engines though, they compliment each other perfectly. To have a production ready, safe engine you need to have high compression, but low boost, more frequently low compression and decent psi. The problem being heat which causes detonation prematurely. With direct injection, the gasoline cools the incoming air. Thus more compression can be had without worry of detonation. The result is engines like the 458 which run I believe 12.1 to 1 compression n/a which is unheard of on pump gas, or forced induction cars with say, 10.5 compression and 15psi. Audi/vw turbo 2.0 is direct injection I believe, cobalt ss/sky/solstice/ats/everything else with the 2.0 turbo is direct injection, Audi's new supercharged 6 is, Jag's soon to be release supercharged 6 is, bww's turbo'd engines are all direct injection as are Ford's ecoboost. The number of forced induction direct injection engines far outway the naturally aspirated ones. Ferraris v8 and v12's are, the camaro v6 as well as genesis v6 is, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head actually. That tells that you don't need that big of an engine anymore, ran with f/i and d/i, to make a but ton of power.
The only thing even REMOTELY comparable to what the new engines will be capable of is the 458 engine, and that's a stretch. Not nearly that many rpm's, but hopefully still 6.2L. 470hp should be no problem with that size, but a 5.5 could make that kind of power as well. In fact, based on the 6.4 hemi with variable cam timing(470hp), if a 6.2 direct injection/variable cam timing only makes 470hp, that's pretty sad.
10-05-2012, 11:55 PM
#3
Tuning from what I understand is different, not so much harder. All engines can be tuned though. The GTR's ecu was supposedly uncrackable and was... for about 6 months or less I believe.
To answer your question yes, these will be super/turbocharged engines though, they compliment each other perfectly. To have a production ready, safe engine you need to have high compression, but low boost, more frequently low compression and decent psi. The problem being heat which causes detonation prematurely. With direct injection, the gasoline cools the incoming air. Thus more compression can be had without worry of detonation. The result is engines like the 458 which run I believe 12.1 to 1 compression n/a which is unheard of on pump gas, or forced induction cars with say, 10.5 compression and 15psi. Audi/vw turbo 2.0 is direct injection I believe, cobalt ss/sky/solstice/ats/everything else with the 2.0 turbo is direct injection, Audi's new supercharged 6 is, Jag's soon to be release supercharged 6 is, bww's turbo'd engines are all direct injection as are Ford's ecoboost. The number of forced induction direct injection engines far outway the naturally aspirated ones. Ferraris v8 and v12's are, the camaro v6 as well as genesis v6 is, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head actually. That tells that you don't need that big of an engine anymore, ran with f/i and d/i, to make a but ton of power.
The only thing even REMOTELY comparable to what the new engines will be capable of is the 458 engine, and that's a stretch. Not nearly that many rpm's, but hopefully still 6.2L. 470hp should be no problem with that size, but a 5.5 could make that kind of power as well. In fact, based on the 6.4 hemi with variable cam timing(470hp), if a 6.2 direct injection/variable cam timing only makes 470hp, that's pretty sad.
To answer your question yes, these will be super/turbocharged engines though, they compliment each other perfectly. To have a production ready, safe engine you need to have high compression, but low boost, more frequently low compression and decent psi. The problem being heat which causes detonation prematurely. With direct injection, the gasoline cools the incoming air. Thus more compression can be had without worry of detonation. The result is engines like the 458 which run I believe 12.1 to 1 compression n/a which is unheard of on pump gas, or forced induction cars with say, 10.5 compression and 15psi. Audi/vw turbo 2.0 is direct injection I believe, cobalt ss/sky/solstice/ats/everything else with the 2.0 turbo is direct injection, Audi's new supercharged 6 is, Jag's soon to be release supercharged 6 is, bww's turbo'd engines are all direct injection as are Ford's ecoboost. The number of forced induction direct injection engines far outway the naturally aspirated ones. Ferraris v8 and v12's are, the camaro v6 as well as genesis v6 is, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head actually. That tells that you don't need that big of an engine anymore, ran with f/i and d/i, to make a but ton of power.
The only thing even REMOTELY comparable to what the new engines will be capable of is the 458 engine, and that's a stretch. Not nearly that many rpm's, but hopefully still 6.2L. 470hp should be no problem with that size, but a 5.5 could make that kind of power as well. In fact, based on the 6.4 hemi with variable cam timing(470hp), if a 6.2 direct injection/variable cam timing only makes 470hp, that's pretty sad.
So, I was asking if the new C7 is going to be the same that many won't touch it.
10-06-2012, 12:09 AM
#4
Drifting
There are a handful of bmw tunners yeah. I've seen guys even swear by the preloaded tunners because they're so spot on and give good gains. It's just another part of a computer essentially, so anyone could get it with practice. The problem with the inline 6 from bmw is, that the fuel pump, like any other gets maxed out. The early pumps supposedly spontaneously fail as well. Problem is, no aftermarket company has stepped up to make a bigger pump. Non the less, stock ones are good to supposedly 400+whp, so no slouch.
Audi/vw aftermarket is huge as well just because so many cars share parts. Plenty of tuners for them available too.
Now how many local shops are skilled in it, who knows. But like people learned fuel injection tables, they'll learn direct injection as well. It'll slowly spread across all of cardom, so there'll be no choice I suspect.
Audi/vw aftermarket is huge as well just because so many cars share parts. Plenty of tuners for them available too.
Now how many local shops are skilled in it, who knows. But like people learned fuel injection tables, they'll learn direct injection as well. It'll slowly spread across all of cardom, so there'll be no choice I suspect.
10-06-2012, 12:11 PM
#5
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
Location: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
Posts: 40,078
Received 8,919 Likes
on
5,328 Posts
Due to draconian fuel economy requirements on the horizon and the need to design a car architecture that will be in production for at least 8 years we will see Direct Injection and Forced Injection to keep the power levels up while having smaller displacement engines to give better fuel economy. DI and F/I increase engine efficiency but still do not increase efficiency above 30% so we will see other efficiency enhancements to get all cars to the 35.5 mpg fleet average that will be required in 2016 and increasing to 54.5 mpg in 2025. The C7 is a 2014 model and that means just two years from the 35.5 requirement they will have to be pretty close to it if they hope to meet the 2016 requirements. I suspect all of GM's passenger cars will have to have higher mpg averages to offset the lower averages of the light trucks so the Vette will have to have a huge increase in fuel economy in just 3 years.
The only way to achieve the mpg's and maintain performance is to reduce weight, increase engine and drivetrain efficiency. This is happening in all cars not just the Vette. So we may be looking at a 2900 lb car, smaller displacement engine with DI and F/I and more efficient transmissions like a DCT. Weight savings could come by reducing the amount of electrical wiring in the car (serial data fiber optic signal lines and more smart modules for lights, etc), going to higher voltage electrical system (48V) which would decrease the amount of copper required in power feeds reducing structure weight even more. Engine efficiency could be improved by adding a feature that stops the engine when the car stops similar to what the GM short hybrid cars offer but without the extra weight of the hybrid stuff (saves a lot of fuel in city driving), something else that could improve efficiency is to increase engine temperatures by using ceramics inside the engine to allow it to operate at much higher temps than current engines operate. Somewhere along the line the valve train may change considerably to reduce the valve train mass and the friction losses involved in operating the valve train (maybe some sort of electronic valve technology).
Several times over the last 60 years GM has used the Corvette to introduce new technologies into production. Sometimes these introductions have been small little noticed things and other times they have been larger like the first time use of fiberglass in car bodies or hydroformed frame rails that started with the C5s and was then introduced into the truck lines.
The production numbers are not high but they are sufficient to see how these technologies will adapt to a production environment and to iron out production issues before they are introduced in mainstream vehicle lines a year or so later.
Bill
The only way to achieve the mpg's and maintain performance is to reduce weight, increase engine and drivetrain efficiency. This is happening in all cars not just the Vette. So we may be looking at a 2900 lb car, smaller displacement engine with DI and F/I and more efficient transmissions like a DCT. Weight savings could come by reducing the amount of electrical wiring in the car (serial data fiber optic signal lines and more smart modules for lights, etc), going to higher voltage electrical system (48V) which would decrease the amount of copper required in power feeds reducing structure weight even more. Engine efficiency could be improved by adding a feature that stops the engine when the car stops similar to what the GM short hybrid cars offer but without the extra weight of the hybrid stuff (saves a lot of fuel in city driving), something else that could improve efficiency is to increase engine temperatures by using ceramics inside the engine to allow it to operate at much higher temps than current engines operate. Somewhere along the line the valve train may change considerably to reduce the valve train mass and the friction losses involved in operating the valve train (maybe some sort of electronic valve technology).
Several times over the last 60 years GM has used the Corvette to introduce new technologies into production. Sometimes these introductions have been small little noticed things and other times they have been larger like the first time use of fiberglass in car bodies or hydroformed frame rails that started with the C5s and was then introduced into the truck lines.
The production numbers are not high but they are sufficient to see how these technologies will adapt to a production environment and to iron out production issues before they are introduced in mainstream vehicle lines a year or so later.
Bill
10-06-2012, 01:11 PM
#6
Safety Car
An engine is an air pump. Forced induction is exactly that, forcing more air in. Fuel delivery and how it is done is of no consequence.... but it does have it's own set of rules and limitations. Those rules and limitations can be addressed. So DI should not hinder how much air is pump in/out... it is only part of the equation.
10-11-2012, 09:18 AM
#9
IMO the numbers that the Vette sells at are so few compared to the entire GM fleet that C7 will have little impact on corporate fleet averages, especially to offset the much higher volume trucks. That doesn't mean that they won't try to get every last mpg they can from it while incrementally improving on the C6 performance levels, though.
10-11-2012, 12:14 PM
#10
Team Owner
It really depends what their overall goals for the engine are, and what compromises they choose between economy and power. GM's 3.6L v6 gained nearly 20% when DI was added to them in 2008. If more aggressive moves are taken for gas mileage, the GenV may see significantly less.
IMO the numbers that the Vette sells at are so few compared to the entire GM fleet that C7 will have little impact on corporate fleet averages, especially to offset the much higher volume trucks. That doesn't mean that they won't try to get every last mpg they can from it while incrementally improving on the C6 performance levels, though.
IMO the numbers that the Vette sells at are so few compared to the entire GM fleet that C7 will have little impact on corporate fleet averages, especially to offset the much higher volume trucks. That doesn't mean that they won't try to get every last mpg they can from it while incrementally improving on the C6 performance levels, though.
It was GM's decison that their entire car/truck lineup have DRL's and that overrode Dave Hill's concern.
10-11-2012, 01:03 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
It really depends what their overall goals for the engine are, and what compromises they choose between economy and power. GM's 3.6L v6 gained nearly 20% when DI was added to them in 2008. If more aggressive moves are taken for gas mileage, the GenV may see significantly less.
IMO the numbers that the Vette sells at are so few compared to the entire GM fleet that C7 will have little impact on corporate fleet averages, especially to offset the much higher volume trucks. That doesn't mean that they won't try to get every last mpg they can from it while incrementally improving on the C6 performance levels, though.
IMO the numbers that the Vette sells at are so few compared to the entire GM fleet that C7 will have little impact on corporate fleet averages, especially to offset the much higher volume trucks. That doesn't mean that they won't try to get every last mpg they can from it while incrementally improving on the C6 performance levels, though.
10-11-2012, 04:04 PM
#12
Le Mans Master
Due to draconian fuel economy requirements on the horizon and the need to design a car architecture that will be in production for at least 8 years we will see Direct Injection and Forced Injection to keep the power levels up while having smaller displacement engines to give better fuel economy. DI and F/I increase engine efficiency but still do not increase efficiency above 30% so we will see other efficiency enhancements to get all cars to the 35.5 mpg fleet average that will be required in 2016 and increasing to 54.5 mpg in 2025. The C7 is a 2014 model and that means just two years from the 35.5 requirement they will have to be pretty close to it if they hope to meet the 2016 requirements. I suspect all of GM's passenger cars will have to have higher mpg averages to offset the lower averages of the light trucks so the Vette will have to have a huge increase in fuel economy in just 3 years.
The only way to achieve the mpg's and maintain performance is to reduce weight, increase engine and drivetrain efficiency. This is happening in all cars not just the Vette. So we may be looking at a 2900 lb car, smaller displacement engine with DI and F/I and more efficient transmissions like a DCT. Weight savings could come by reducing the amount of electrical wiring in the car (serial data fiber optic signal lines and more smart modules for lights, etc), going to higher voltage electrical system (48V) which would decrease the amount of copper required in power feeds reducing structure weight even more. Engine efficiency could be improved by adding a feature that stops the engine when the car stops similar to what the GM short hybrid cars offer but without the extra weight of the hybrid stuff (saves a lot of fuel in city driving), something else that could improve efficiency is to increase engine temperatures by using ceramics inside the engine to allow it to operate at much higher temps than current engines operate. Somewhere along the line the valve train may change considerably to reduce the valve train mass and the friction losses involved in operating the valve train (maybe some sort of electronic valve technology).
Several times over the last 60 years GM has used the Corvette to introduce new technologies into production. Sometimes these introductions have been small little noticed things and other times they have been larger like the first time use of fiberglass in car bodies or hydroformed frame rails that started with the C5s and was then introduced into the truck lines.
The production numbers are not high but they are sufficient to see how these technologies will adapt to a production environment and to iron out production issues before they are introduced in mainstream vehicle lines a year or so later.
Bill
The only way to achieve the mpg's and maintain performance is to reduce weight, increase engine and drivetrain efficiency. This is happening in all cars not just the Vette. So we may be looking at a 2900 lb car, smaller displacement engine with DI and F/I and more efficient transmissions like a DCT. Weight savings could come by reducing the amount of electrical wiring in the car (serial data fiber optic signal lines and more smart modules for lights, etc), going to higher voltage electrical system (48V) which would decrease the amount of copper required in power feeds reducing structure weight even more. Engine efficiency could be improved by adding a feature that stops the engine when the car stops similar to what the GM short hybrid cars offer but without the extra weight of the hybrid stuff (saves a lot of fuel in city driving), something else that could improve efficiency is to increase engine temperatures by using ceramics inside the engine to allow it to operate at much higher temps than current engines operate. Somewhere along the line the valve train may change considerably to reduce the valve train mass and the friction losses involved in operating the valve train (maybe some sort of electronic valve technology).
Several times over the last 60 years GM has used the Corvette to introduce new technologies into production. Sometimes these introductions have been small little noticed things and other times they have been larger like the first time use of fiberglass in car bodies or hydroformed frame rails that started with the C5s and was then introduced into the truck lines.
The production numbers are not high but they are sufficient to see how these technologies will adapt to a production environment and to iron out production issues before they are introduced in mainstream vehicle lines a year or so later.
Bill
Excellent reply Bill!