Let the Gorging Begin
#21
Different ways of looking at this:
Rationally, at MSRP the C7 beats comparable cars (in the luxury sport) in both subjective and objective criterias. However C7 is not the only game in town..
So what is the delta to obtain a feasible substitution? ...
In my case it comes to several thousands of dollars... so comes time to chat with the dealer today I may have a threshold of let's say 2K over MSRP. In a year (most likely) less than MSRP...and so on ..
Also, at this rate in 10/15 years a car like a Corvette C7 will set you back the equivalent of 85/100K... so there are times where waiting actually works against you; not for you..
Rationally, at MSRP the C7 beats comparable cars (in the luxury sport) in both subjective and objective criterias. However C7 is not the only game in town..
So what is the delta to obtain a feasible substitution? ...
In my case it comes to several thousands of dollars... so comes time to chat with the dealer today I may have a threshold of let's say 2K over MSRP. In a year (most likely) less than MSRP...and so on ..
Also, at this rate in 10/15 years a car like a Corvette C7 will set you back the equivalent of 85/100K... so there are times where waiting actually works against you; not for you..
#22
Race Director
Luckily, we live in a free market which is why we get so many good products so cheaply.
If you complain about price gouging when supplies are short, you should also remember that those discounts from MSRP and dealer incentives people seem to require now a days come about from excessive supply.
You can't get one without the other.
If you complain about price gouging when supplies are short, you should also remember that those discounts from MSRP and dealer incentives people seem to require now a days come about from excessive supply.
You can't get one without the other.
Back when the C6 was intro'd and these same conversations took place about "adjusted market value", I posed the very same question...what part of supply and demand did folks sleep through?
I paid MSRP for my 2005 C6 convertible (and felt lucky to get that price), 3 years later, I paid invoice for my 2008 C6 convertible.
Jimmy
#24
Race Director
Luckily, we live in a free market which is why we get so many good products so cheaply.
If you complain about price gouging when supplies are short, you should also remember that those discounts from MSRP and dealer incentives people seem to require now a days come about from excessive supply.
You can't get one without the other.
If you complain about price gouging when supplies are short, you should also remember that those discounts from MSRP and dealer incentives people seem to require now a days come about from excessive supply.
You can't get one without the other.
Silly thread. It's called supply and demand.
The same folks that bitch with self righteous outrage when the dealer says, "MSRP +$5,000 please", need to also say, "No thank you, I'll pay sticker price" when the same dealer later offers a $5,000 OR $10,000 discount from MSRP.
But they won't.
By definition, a moral compass has to swing freely. It can't swing in only one self serving direction.
The same folks that bitch with self righteous outrage when the dealer says, "MSRP +$5,000 please", need to also say, "No thank you, I'll pay sticker price" when the same dealer later offers a $5,000 OR $10,000 discount from MSRP.
But they won't.
By definition, a moral compass has to swing freely. It can't swing in only one self serving direction.
This is about some greedy dealers (anybody remember Maxi Price and the ZO6 debacle?) charging over market prices to uninformed or uncaring folks who have money "to burn". With a little research they could buy at MSRP, but evidently do not care to do so.
That may not be "stupid", but it is certainly uninformed and ignorant of the other suppliers willing to sell at MSRP.
How in the world is it possibly a violation of some "moral compass" to shop around for the best price? Isn't that process an integral part of a free market economy?
It IS other peoples business because it perpetuates this kind of practice by the greedy dealers. That affects more than just those spending more than they have to on a C7; it spills over into other vehicle sales as well.
Last edited by tuxnharley; 05-06-2013 at 04:12 PM.
#25
Race Director
#26
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Dec 2009
Location: Tysons Corner, VA
Posts: 1,009
Likes: 0
Received 35 Likes
on
23 Posts
I simply don't see why dealers deserve the extra ADM on top of the MSRP. "Supply/Demand" is a specious argument. GM should set the price that meets demand.
I don't believe dealers deserve the extra cheddar simply for being middlemen.
I think doing so is short sighted by dealers. I wouldn't do business with one. It is looking at the sale as "transactional" and not considering the long term relationship with the consumer.
Thank god for the Internet, we all aren't subject to local dealer BS.
I don't believe dealers deserve the extra cheddar simply for being middlemen.
I think doing so is short sighted by dealers. I wouldn't do business with one. It is looking at the sale as "transactional" and not considering the long term relationship with the consumer.
Thank god for the Internet, we all aren't subject to local dealer BS.
#27
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,657
Received 4,116 Likes
on
1,470 Posts
2020 C8 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
#28
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,657
Received 4,116 Likes
on
1,470 Posts
2020 C8 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
I very much agree!
The beauty of the internet as it has made all markets "local". Now, you can buy something across the country even more easily than next door.
When the market area expands, competition increases and costs go down.
Too bad we can't teach that to the government. (Ooops, sorry!)
Last edited by Sin City; 05-06-2013 at 04:24 PM.
#29
AIR FORCE VETERAN
By law it is " suggested " price. The manufacture can not dictate pricing, it is not legal. They can suggest. The dealer can charge whatever the market will allow. You can pay or not it is called free enterprise. I love America..and free enterprise..and the ability to make money. The stock market is paying for my C7.. Because the value is what people will pay for what they want.
#30
I disagree. This is not about "supply and demand" or "free market economics" or a "moral compass" . That would only be true if ALL suppliers in the market were charging the same price, i.e. excess fees over MSRP. That is not the case here.
This is about some greedy dealers (anybody remember Maxi Price and the ZO6 debacle?) charging over market prices to uninformed or uncaring folks who have money "to burn". With a little research they could buy at MSRP, but evidently do not care to do so.
That may not be "stupid", but it is certainly uninformed and ignorant of the other suppliers willing to sell at MSRP.
How in the world is it possibly a violation of some "moral compass" to shop around for the best price? Isn't that process an integral part of a free market economy?
This is about some greedy dealers (anybody remember Maxi Price and the ZO6 debacle?) charging over market prices to uninformed or uncaring folks who have money "to burn". With a little research they could buy at MSRP, but evidently do not care to do so.
That may not be "stupid", but it is certainly uninformed and ignorant of the other suppliers willing to sell at MSRP.
How in the world is it possibly a violation of some "moral compass" to shop around for the best price? Isn't that process an integral part of a free market economy?
I don't think anyone is saying it's a violation of a "moral compass" to shop around. Just that you can't claim to live in a free market society and then ask for artificial price caps. The compass is free to swing thusly: Those who want short-term profits can sell at whatever ADM they feel the market will bear. They do so at the risk of losing long-term profits (loyal customers), but that is the mistake they have freely chosen. A customer can "pay to play" or he can shop around. No problem there either.
#31
I live in San Antonio which is where the dealer is that the OP posted. I was interested in the 1985 Vette when that model year came out and the Dealrer the OP cited was asking several thousand over MSRP. Later that year I was temporarily relocated to Detroit on a project for General Motors. I spent a lot of time at Milford Proving Grounds and seeing all those new Vettes made me really want one. I bought one near then end of the MY for invoice in Detroit and drove it back to San Antonio. I highly doubt the dealer in San Antonio will ever sell me a car.
#32
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Dec 2009
Location: Tysons Corner, VA
Posts: 1,009
Likes: 0
Received 35 Likes
on
23 Posts
I disagree. This is not about "supply and demand" or "free market economics" or a "moral compass" . That would only be true if ALL suppliers in the market were charging the same price, i.e. excess fees over MSRP. That is not the case here.
This is about some greedy dealers (anybody remember Maxi Price and the ZO6 debacle?) charging over market prices to uninformed or uncaring folks who have money "to burn". With a little research they could buy at MSRP, but evidently do not care to do so.
That may not be "stupid", but it is certainly uninformed and ignorant of the other suppliers willing to sell at MSRP.
How in the world is it possibly a violation of some "moral compass" to shop around for the best price? Isn't that process an integral part of a free market economy?
It IS other peoples business because it perpetuates this kind of practice by the greedy dealers. That affects more than just those spending more than they have to on a C7; it spills over into other vehicle sales as well.
This is about some greedy dealers (anybody remember Maxi Price and the ZO6 debacle?) charging over market prices to uninformed or uncaring folks who have money "to burn". With a little research they could buy at MSRP, but evidently do not care to do so.
That may not be "stupid", but it is certainly uninformed and ignorant of the other suppliers willing to sell at MSRP.
How in the world is it possibly a violation of some "moral compass" to shop around for the best price? Isn't that process an integral part of a free market economy?
It IS other peoples business because it perpetuates this kind of practice by the greedy dealers. That affects more than just those spending more than they have to on a C7; it spills over into other vehicle sales as well.
I'd argue 2 decades ago, ADM on vehicles violated the free market, because people simply didn't have the ability to check the inventory of 1000 dealers across the US instantly.
Now, I think it is more "free market" - because you can simply find out who is and isn't selling at <= MSRP thanks to the Internet.
I think now if you are selling with ADM, you are just bad at business and if you are buying with ADM, you are a fool. Perhaps selling at a high markup is why they aren't selling many and thus not getting a lot of allocations...
I still don't see what dealers bring to the table as being the middle men in the purchase of a vehicle like this to justify the ADM cost. They aren't providing vehicles to test. They don't have sample product. They simply add no value to the equation to justify over MSRP, other than being the only conduit to purchase the vehicle.
#33
Race Director
I was looking at 2013 Range Rover Sport yesterday. Since the
2014 new styles are shown on the net as well as pricing.
I asked well what are the incentives going to be to move
out the older style 13's.
Response was we will have them all gone before the 14, they
are selling briskly. Well now they had 30 that could see on the
lot. Just said glad your going to sell all of them, means the
economy is improving.
Car dealers are nothing but BS.
2014 new styles are shown on the net as well as pricing.
I asked well what are the incentives going to be to move
out the older style 13's.
Response was we will have them all gone before the 14, they
are selling briskly. Well now they had 30 that could see on the
lot. Just said glad your going to sell all of them, means the
economy is improving.
Car dealers are nothing but BS.
#34
Melting Slicks
#35
AIR FORCE VETERAN
It wouldn't be practical for all suppliers to charge the same excess fees over MSRP. You'd likely see a self-correction in the market that would hurt GM's bottom line (fewer cars sold, some customers looking to competing marques, etc). If uncaring folks with money to burn want the latest and greatest, and there are people willing to satisfy their hunger, then there's really no problem there.
I don't think anyone is saying it's a violation of a "moral compass" to shop around. Just that you can't claim to live in a free market society and then ask for artificial price caps. The compass is free to swing thusly: Those who want short-term profits can sell at whatever ADM they feel the market will bear. They do so at the risk of losing long-term profits (loyal customers), but that is the mistake they have freely chosen. A customer can "pay to play" or he can shop around. No problem there either.
I don't think anyone is saying it's a violation of a "moral compass" to shop around. Just that you can't claim to live in a free market society and then ask for artificial price caps. The compass is free to swing thusly: Those who want short-term profits can sell at whatever ADM they feel the market will bear. They do so at the risk of losing long-term profits (loyal customers), but that is the mistake they have freely chosen. A customer can "pay to play" or he can shop around. No problem there either.
I agree that there would be a market correction. If dealers are ahead of the market the cars would not sell. Thus the price would come down, there would be no loss of vehicles..no loss of bottom line ..just a temporary situation which would be corrected to meet demand. Market dictates the price not the dealers. The dealers just read the market and react. In my opinion.
#36
This is about some greedy dealers (anybody remember Maxi Price and the ZO6 debacle?) charging over market prices to uninformed or uncaring folks who have money "to burn".
....
It IS other peoples business because it perpetuates this kind of practice by the greedy dealers.
....
It IS other peoples business because it perpetuates this kind of practice by the greedy dealers.
2.) If what you believe is true, then somewhere there must be a parallel Corvette dealer forum where they have threads about "those greedy customers trying to steal my profit by offering to pay less than MSRP."
#37
Melting Slicks
Caveat emptor is an inherent conceptual component of supply and demand and free markets everywhere. Why do you think the toy industry used to send only New York lawyers to negotiate deals in Hong Kong?
You send the the toughest and the best in hopes of squeezing out every penny possible. All sellers are different and all buyers are different. That is part of the fun. It is also part of the tragedy. You don't have to like the rules, you just have to understand them.
You send the the toughest and the best in hopes of squeezing out every penny possible. All sellers are different and all buyers are different. That is part of the fun. It is also part of the tragedy. You don't have to like the rules, you just have to understand them.
#38
It wont be as bad as when the C6 Z06 came out as the economy was better then. Every dealer around me was asking 20k over. I put my name on the list at Courtesy Chevy in San Jose and told them to call me when they would sell at msrp. They called me every couple months with a better offer, 15k, 12k, 10k over, no thanks! I waited a year and finally found one in Indiana for msrp and bought it. It's bad enough what you lose on a new car, that $ over msrp goes in the toilet as soon as you leave.
A friend of mine works at Chevy dealer, they sold a ZL1 Camaro when they came out for 85k otd.
A friend of mine works at Chevy dealer, they sold a ZL1 Camaro when they came out for 85k otd.
#40
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2009
Location: Los Angeles California
Posts: 9,526
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
I'll pay MSRP if it means I'll get my car without a markup and without waiting a year.
I'm not so concerned with the deal I'm getting so much as the quality of the product I'm buying. I feel that the C7 is worth the money I spend on it, and therefore I don't think MSRP is too much.
I'm not so concerned with the deal I'm getting so much as the quality of the product I'm buying. I feel that the C7 is worth the money I spend on it, and therefore I don't think MSRP is too much.