Edmunds C7 vs 911 comparison test
09-11-2013, 11:39 AM
#201
Burning Brakes
What did you think I was referring to when I said they make the stuff that make the stuff? Germany makes robots, but they still have a strong labor force.
Now you're taking it to an extreme in a failed attempt to disprove that some manual labor is valuable (and is seen as a point of pride in craftsmanship). As I said with the example of Germany, it's not necessary that you have to have an extreme of all labor or all machines.
The designing and building of those robots can be farmed out to lower-wage countries. All you're talking about now is maintenance. Really thinks it takes more people to maintain those robots than it takes labor to build what they're building? What was the point of robots again?
And why aren't they the same? Because if Toyota employed the same technique, they'd never hit their production goals. Pagani's production goals are far different, and it's worked out for them so far.
Now you're taking it to an extreme in a failed attempt to disprove that some manual labor is valuable (and is seen as a point of pride in craftsmanship). As I said with the example of Germany, it's not necessary that you have to have an extreme of all labor or all machines.
The designing and building of those robots can be farmed out to lower-wage countries. All you're talking about now is maintenance. Really thinks it takes more people to maintain those robots than it takes labor to build what they're building? What was the point of robots again?
And why aren't they the same? Because if Toyota employed the same technique, they'd never hit their production goals. Pagani's production goals are far different, and it's worked out for them so far.
Besides, the debate about helping the economy and whatnot was a clever little distraction, but completely besides the original point, which is that hand-made is objectively no better than machine-made in terms of the quality of the final product.
As for Pagani... That's kind of my point.
Absent any objective calculus on your part, is there any reason why the free market concept of value isn't valid?
And yet you will not even engage into a debate, point for point, about the advantages and disadvantes between Corvette and 911. You have not yet countered those things I've listed (and we can even get into more, if you want).
And yet you will not even engage into a debate, point for point, about the advantages and disadvantes between Corvette and 911. You have not yet countered those things I've listed (and we can even get into more, if you want).
Last edited by RocketGuy3; 09-11-2013 at 11:44 AM.
09-11-2013, 02:01 PM
#202
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09-11-2013, 02:06 PM
#203
Race Director
Edmunds is the nerd of auto magazines...
Just ahead of consumer reports..
Its a pricing guide that creates articles for traffic ..
Edmunds vs motor trend...or better yet car and driver..( motor trend did do that stupid rain test comparison of the grand sport versus 911 a year or two back...lol
Lets see the differences in the report and enjoy the cool video edmunds showed us.
Its like asking a pro golfer to play pro football...at least at this stage.
Just ahead of consumer reports..
Its a pricing guide that creates articles for traffic ..
Edmunds vs motor trend...or better yet car and driver..( motor trend did do that stupid rain test comparison of the grand sport versus 911 a year or two back...lol
Lets see the differences in the report and enjoy the cool video edmunds showed us.
Its like asking a pro golfer to play pro football...at least at this stage.
09-11-2013, 02:25 PM
#204
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So no, it wasn't even close to a "stupid" test.
09-11-2013, 02:43 PM
#205
Safety Car
I read on another forum that the Corvette says you're getting there as fast as you can while the 911 says you've already arrived.
Money no object, I'd choose to own both cars.
Money no object, I'd choose to own both cars.
09-11-2013, 03:03 PM
#206
Race Director
It wasn't a test they designed to be run in the rain; it wasn't a "rain test comparison". They had the cars for a couple of days and although highly unusual, it did rain the first day of the test. They said they weren't going to skip the test just because of some rain, so they proceeded. That makes complete sense to me. Besides, it was good to see how both cars performed on public roads where the vast majority of owners operate them and where traction and temperatures aren't "track perfect". The review illustrated what the real-world capabilities of both care are.
So no, it wasn't even close to a "stupid" test.
So no, it wasn't even close to a "stupid" test.
I'm not surprised at your response.
Main Focal point is edmunds is not exactly Up to the test standards of car and driver, road and track or as I mentioned even motor trend...
Their impressions are valid...the video cool but the test data is less than representative.....in my opinion based off of the fact edmunds main focus is price guidelines etc...
Its created these edmunds reviews to increase web site traffic etc...
They are improving but still placed above consumer reports...(which many Americans respect) and below carand driver etc as a true test of a vehicles capabilities..
09-11-2013, 04:01 PM
#207
And yet AWD Porsches aren't used for that application. Nor Audis (at least not private customer ones). Evos and WRXs are, but then you're losing the point about the 911: It is that adept in poor conditions and that fast in the dry (<7:40 on the Nurburgring), and neither car matches the delicacy of controls and feedback of the 911.
The point about the Motor Trend test is that you really don't even have to drive the 911 that aggressively for the Porsche to offer far more confidence. That was not a test of at-the-limit driving (at least not for the 911s). At anything less than that, the 911 is still comfortably more secure.
But the 911's overall design is an asset to traction and functionality that many customers want. From a roll is one thing, but once you introduce steering lock and less than ideal conditions, limited sightlines (ie, not able to practice run after run on a racetrack), then it's the added confidence that can matter.
The point about the Motor Trend test is that you really don't even have to drive the 911 that aggressively for the Porsche to offer far more confidence. That was not a test of at-the-limit driving (at least not for the 911s). At anything less than that, the 911 is still comfortably more secure.
But the 911's overall design is an asset to traction and functionality that many customers want. From a roll is one thing, but once you introduce steering lock and less than ideal conditions, limited sightlines (ie, not able to practice run after run on a racetrack), then it's the added confidence that can matter.
The 911 is first and foremost a sports car. The rear engine design is not an asset to this aim. You can find outside cases where this is can be an asset. But overall it is not. It is not an overwhelming traction advantage and likely not much of one at all in today's market. It is not the reason the 911 feels precise or inspires confidence. In fact in the older years it caused the opposite opinion.
Again I am not saying that the 911 isn't an excellent car. But it is not because it is rear engined. It is in spite of it. You can't argue against simple physics.
Last edited by 99C5JA1; 09-11-2013 at 04:19 PM.
09-11-2013, 04:18 PM
#208
It wasn't a test they designed to be run in the rain; it wasn't a "rain test comparison". They had the cars for a couple of days and although highly unusual, it did rain the first day of the test. They said they weren't going to skip the test just because of some rain, so they proceeded. That makes complete sense to me. Besides, it was good to see how both cars performed on public roads where the vast majority of owners operate them and where traction and temperatures aren't "track perfect". The review illustrated what the real-world capabilities of both care are.
So no, it wasn't even close to a "stupid" test.
So no, it wasn't even close to a "stupid" test.
Real world common sense for a sane owner of an expensive sports car is to make sure that traction control is enabled and keep your foot out of it. Regardless of marque.
09-11-2013, 05:46 PM
#210
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09-11-2013, 05:48 PM
#211
Race Director
When I need a car type to speak for me...I'd be in trouble. I buy and own what I like.
09-11-2013, 05:50 PM
#212
Safety Car
09-11-2013, 05:53 PM
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09-11-2013, 05:59 PM
#214
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09-11-2013, 08:01 PM
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09-11-2013, 08:51 PM
#216
Race Director
Please accept my apologies if my interpretation and perspective of edmunds upsets you.
I did like the edmunds video efforts yet find car and driver, road and track and even motor trend test data more accurate when testing manual transmission vehicles.
Its unfortunate that is offensive to you.
Last edited by JerriVette; 09-11-2013 at 08:55 PM.
09-11-2013, 09:13 PM
#217
Burning Brakes
Says the guy on corvette forum who continually says Porsches are better...
I'm not surprised at your response.
Main Focal point is edmunds is not exactly Up to the test standards of car and driver, road and track or as I mentioned even motor trend...
Their impressions are valid...the video cool but the test data is less than representative.....in my opinion based off of the fact edmunds main focus is price guidelines etc...
Its created these edmunds reviews to increase web site traffic etc...
They are improving but still placed above consumer reports...(which many Americans respect) and below carand driver etc as a true test of a vehicles capabilities..
I'm not surprised at your response.
Main Focal point is edmunds is not exactly Up to the test standards of car and driver, road and track or as I mentioned even motor trend...
Their impressions are valid...the video cool but the test data is less than representative.....in my opinion based off of the fact edmunds main focus is price guidelines etc...
Its created these edmunds reviews to increase web site traffic etc...
They are improving but still placed above consumer reports...(which many Americans respect) and below carand driver etc as a true test of a vehicles capabilities..
09-11-2013, 09:16 PM
#218
Burning Brakes
Notch is dead on, you obviously did not read it either. The conclusion was the Vette was down right dangerous to drive in the rain conditions they were in.
09-11-2013, 09:18 PM
#219
The Consigliere
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It's deja vu all over again.
09-11-2013, 09:33 PM
#220
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