Edmunds C7 vs 911 comparison test
09-25-2013, 01:19 PM
#562
Instructor
His assertion was answered by you with a question. Poor tactic.
I am not saying anything of the sort. You like trying to speak for others. Another poor tactic.
Also, what is this 'prestige factor' you seem to believe is fact, and not merely your bias. I don't seem to recall there being a universally accepted rule that anything made in Germany is 'prestigious'. Perhaps you could show that Americans overwhelmingly prefer anything made in Germany over the same product made in America?
So what you're saying is that GM could have been taking advantage of the "made in Germany" prestige factor all of these years, with no loss in profits (since shipping and duty is also apparently $0), yet chose not to do it.
Also, what is this 'prestige factor' you seem to believe is fact, and not merely your bias. I don't seem to recall there being a universally accepted rule that anything made in Germany is 'prestigious'. Perhaps you could show that Americans overwhelmingly prefer anything made in Germany over the same product made in America?
Last edited by ScottNC; 09-25-2013 at 01:31 PM.
09-25-2013, 01:23 PM
#563
Instructor
Seems reasonable to me that BLS would try to make the figures as comparable as possible. If not, why even do it? Otherwise, the figures would be useless for referencing by anyone (including Telepierre, who misrepresented the actual figures and quoted from incomparable table entries)
If you want to have an objective debate, then please continue. If not, at least admit you have no proper answer and are just throwing spaghetti at the wall.
09-25-2013, 01:53 PM
#564
Instructor
I'm sure if we added figures for retirees, the German figures would go up too. Of course, GM wouldn't want to mention that when asking for a handout from the government; they would want to maximize their liability case for more support.
Conjecture that is rooted in common sense. After all, if you were GM asking for a handout, would you minimize your liabilities or would you maximize them? Please try to actually answer a question for once.
As for the other 'conjecture rooted in common sense', I would say you would best be served by using 'conjecture based upon verifiable fact'.
There are many, MANY smart people working for both GM and the US government - skewing numbers would serve no purpose whatsoever.
But if that is the crux of your 'argument', so be it.
I don't know who you think you are convincing with these half arguments. All I've seen so far is a bunch of intellectually dishonest evasion and oddly concocted leaps of 'logic' that make no sense.
09-25-2013, 02:01 PM
#565
Telling him to explain something is not a question. Once again, you would rather discuss the personalities in this thread, and not the substantive topic of debate. Poor tactic.
So what are you saying? If what I say makes sense and is reasonable, that does not mean "I like trying to speak for others."
I'm talking about the whining that goes on in these forums whenever a German car wins any mag test or the dollars of American consumers. It invariably comes down to either advertising bribes or because it's made in Germany.
Why would I have to do that, when my point has been the exact opposite: Some people prefer or buy things because of the quality, not necessarily because of where it's made.
Also, what is this 'prestige factor' you seem to believe is fact, and not merely your bias. I don't seem to recall there being a universally accepted rule that anything made in Germany is 'prestigious'. Perhaps you could show that Americans overwhelmingly prefer anything made in Germany over the same product made in America?
Why would I have to do that, when my point has been the exact opposite: Some people prefer or buy things because of the quality, not necessarily because of where it's made.
Last edited by Guibo; 09-25-2013 at 02:11 PM.
09-25-2013, 02:03 PM
#566
Ahhh.. the 'seems reasonable to me' argument. Immediately followed by another question. Evasion is just about the only thing this statement is good for.
If you want to have an objective debate, then please continue. If not, at least admit you have no proper answer and are just throwing spaghetti at the wall.
If you want to have an objective debate, then please continue. If not, at least admit you have no proper answer and are just throwing spaghetti at the wall.
09-25-2013, 02:10 PM
#567
You are 'sure' that the figures would go up? If you are so sure, find them and post them.
As for the other 'conjecture rooted in common sense', I would say you would best be served by using 'conjecture based upon verifiable fact'.
There are many, MANY smart people working for both GM and the US government - skewing numbers would serve no purpose whatsoever.
But if that is the crux of your 'argument', so be it.
I don't know who you think you are convincing with these half arguments. All I've seen so far is a bunch of intellectually dishonest evasion and oddly concocted leaps of 'logic' that make no sense.
As for the other 'conjecture rooted in common sense', I would say you would best be served by using 'conjecture based upon verifiable fact'.
There are many, MANY smart people working for both GM and the US government - skewing numbers would serve no purpose whatsoever.
But if that is the crux of your 'argument', so be it.
I don't know who you think you are convincing with these half arguments. All I've seen so far is a bunch of intellectually dishonest evasion and oddly concocted leaps of 'logic' that make no sense.
Skewing numbers wouldn't serve a purpose...really. So you're saying that if GM came to the US government asking for a handout, yet showing that they already pay much, much lower than the transplanted Honda and Toyota competition, the US government would weigh their plight and asking for funds the same way.
The only one evading here is you. You continue to evade question after question, and making unfounded demands of "proof" of "doubts," apparently incapable of understanding the distinction. I doubt a Corvette with a Ferrari V12 would be more efficient than it is with the LT1. I don't have any proof of this doubt, nor do I need any to voice this doubt.
09-25-2013, 08:40 PM
#568
Burning Brakes
I'd like to see the proof that the 911 is a safer car than the Corvette as was claimed by Guibo. This answer does not come from the number of airbags contained within, but by accident, survival statistics.
09-25-2013, 11:03 PM
#569
If anything was debunked, it certainly wasn't by you.
Distribution of vendors is the same as it is for why Iowa has only one Porsche dealer: nobody wants them out there. Meanwhile, there are 5 offiicial dealers clustered around Chicago in the next state over.
"Hogwash"...ok, you tell me why Porsche sells so much better relative to Corvette in Canada. Be careful with your vendors theory, as there are only about 15 dealers in Canada, vs over 400 GM dealers in Canada.
Distribution of vendors is the same as it is for why Iowa has only one Porsche dealer: nobody wants them out there. Meanwhile, there are 5 offiicial dealers clustered around Chicago in the next state over.
"Hogwash"...ok, you tell me why Porsche sells so much better relative to Corvette in Canada. Be careful with your vendors theory, as there are only about 15 dealers in Canada, vs over 400 GM dealers in Canada.
If anything was debunked, it certainly wasn't by you.
Distribution of vendors is the same as it is for why Iowa has only one Porsche dealer: nobody wants them out there. Meanwhile, there are 5 offiicial dealers clustered around Chicago in the next state over.
Bottom line. Facts at hand, the US auto market is one of the most open market in the world with ample opportunities for the Corvette to prove it's competitiveness. Now look at the German market...
Oh! wait they buy predominantly German (not 911s though..)
"Hogwash"...ok, you tell me why Porsche sells so much better relative to Corvette in Canada. Be careful with your vendors theory, as there are only about 15 dealers in Canada, vs over 400 GM dealers in Canada.
Wait...
Let's do some math with some data...
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
C6 vs 911 Canada sales 2005-2013 (YTD and C6 "gap year")
C6: 4970
911:4872
tell me why Porsche sells so much better relative to Corvette in Canada.
As usual Guibo...You are asking questions of wrong premises...
Last edited by Telepierre; 09-25-2013 at 11:24 PM.
09-25-2013, 11:12 PM
#570
I don't know what "IF" you're talking about.
I'm questioning what the figure would be if you reported for Porsche the same way GM reported its costs when begging for a lifeline. How could you (or any of your sources) account for Porsche's pension plan, which has a performance-based component on top of the fixed rate, which increases depending on Porsche's return on sales?
I'm questioning what the figure would be if you reported for Porsche the same way GM reported its costs when begging for a lifeline. How could you (or any of your sources) account for Porsche's pension plan, which has a performance-based component on top of the fixed rate, which increases depending on Porsche's return on sales?
what the figure would be if you reported for
After all the links you provided on hourly labor costs NOW you are premising that GM calculates it differently??
09-26-2013, 12:31 AM
#571
Didn't say it was safer in terms of crash safet. I said it offers more stability in inclement conditions (see MT test) and it offers more safety features. Crash tests for a variety of cars since inception of airbags show that they are effective in crashes.
09-26-2013, 12:57 AM
#572
I'm saying the Corvette has a patriotic advantage. I didn't say everybody in the US is patriotic about their purchases. Learn to realize that distinction. Then tell me why Corvette doesn't do as well in Canada as it does in the US, despite a massive price advantage.
And where did I say that Porsche doesn't enjoy a patriotic advantage in Germany???
Notice I chose a neutral country by which we can remove the effect of patriotism: Canada. (Even though Canada has a long tradition of GM plant employment.)
http://www.gm.ca/gm/english/vehicles...vette/overview
911 price in Canada: From $92k:
http://www.porsche.com/canada/en/mod...1/911-carrera/
You're crowing about 98 additional sales (2%) over a car that costs 53% more, even before options? Wow. You must be "impressed" that McDonald's sells more $5 burgers than restaurants selling $50 steaks, am I right?
"???????????
As usual Guibo...You are asking questions of wrong premises..."
Is it really the wrong premises? Check the YTD sales of Corvette and 911 in the US and tell me there is no difference between that ratio and the ratio in Canada. "Selling better relative to" != "outselling"
09-26-2013, 01:02 AM
#573
I addressed that the first time it was brought up. The $73 figures certainly did not appear when YOU first mis-quoted BLS figures.
09-26-2013, 03:42 PM
#574
Instructor
Telling him to explain something is not a question. Once again, you would rather discuss the personalities in this thread, and not the substantive topic of debate. Poor tactic.
2. Do a search of distribution of vendors in US vs Germany and then come back to us and tell us that the US market is a "patriotic" market. Hogwash.
"Hogwash"...ok, you tell me why Porsche sells so much better relative to Corvette in Canada.
So what are you saying? If what I say makes sense and is reasonable, that does not mean "I like trying to speak for others."
This is what you wrote:
So what you're saying is that GM could have been taking advantage of ...
"the same type of 'common sense' or 'subjective' answers people have been giving all throughout this thread, to which you reply, 'where is your proof?'"
I have done no such thing.
I have done no such thing.
Actually you have:
There is no circumlocution going on here. My point is also incredibly simple: You have yet to prove that objective fractional differences on a racetrack are a prime motivating factor for purchasers of luxury sports cars (which is what GM is marketing the Corvette as, and has done so since the C6 at least). Nor (after making a dubious reference to panic stops) can you claim that subjective agility, steering feel, and braking feel don't matter to some people in the market for a sports car, nor have you made the case that the 335i/IS350 vs Porsche is in any way relevant to our Corvette vs 911 discussion.
Last edited by ScottNC; 09-26-2013 at 04:08 PM.
09-26-2013, 04:21 PM
#575
Let me refresh - Telepierre wrote:
to which you reply:
So that isn't a question? He has no responsibility to provide you with a reason for the assertion he just made, he asked YOU to look at the data then provide a solid framework for YOUR assertion. Instead of taking responsibility for your own assertions, you attempt to pass the buck..ie evasion. This is your calling card, and you provide multiple examples all through this thread.
to which you reply:
So that isn't a question? He has no responsibility to provide you with a reason for the assertion he just made, he asked YOU to look at the data then provide a solid framework for YOUR assertion. Instead of taking responsibility for your own assertions, you attempt to pass the buck..ie evasion. This is your calling card, and you provide multiple examples all through this thread.
Perhaps you could enlighten us all with why you think patriotism isn't at play, with regards to the Corvette's sales in the US. It makes sense for Porsche in Germany, so I don't see why it wouldn't make sense for the Corvette in the US.
That's not a fraud.
1) If fractional differences were such a prime motivating factor in luxury sports cars sales, we'd see the types of cars like the Viper and Corvette clobbering sales of the types of cars that CF considers to be poor bang/buck sports cars.
2) Some people do value those characteristics in cars, as stated by multiple posters here in this thread and in others. GM values it too.
09-27-2013, 01:36 PM
#576
Instructor
That's not a fraud.
1) If fractional differences were such a prime motivating factor in luxury sports cars sales, we'd see the types of cars like the Viper and Corvette clobbering sales of the types of cars that CF considers to be poor bang/buck sports cars.
2) Some people do value those characteristics in cars, as stated by multiple posters here in this thread and in others. GM values it too.
1) If fractional differences were such a prime motivating factor in luxury sports cars sales, we'd see the types of cars like the Viper and Corvette clobbering sales of the types of cars that CF considers to be poor bang/buck sports cars.
2) Some people do value those characteristics in cars, as stated by multiple posters here in this thread and in others. GM values it too.
Quote:
"the same type of 'common sense' or 'subjective' answers people have been giving all throughout this thread, to which you reply, 'where is your proof?'"
I have done no such thing.
"the same type of 'common sense' or 'subjective' answers people have been giving all throughout this thread, to which you reply, 'where is your proof?'"
I have done no such thing.
Actually you have:
Quote:
There is no circumlocution going on here. My point is also incredibly simple: You have yet to prove that objective fractional differences on a racetrack are a prime motivating factor for purchasers of luxury sports cars (which is what GM is marketing the Corvette as, and has done so since the C6 at least). Nor (after making a dubious reference to panic stops) can you claim that subjective agility, steering feel, and braking feel don't matter to some people in the market for a sports car, nor have you made the case that the 335i/IS350 vs Porsche is in any way relevant to our Corvette vs 911 discussion.
There is no circumlocution going on here. My point is also incredibly simple: You have yet to prove that objective fractional differences on a racetrack are a prime motivating factor for purchasers of luxury sports cars (which is what GM is marketing the Corvette as, and has done so since the C6 at least). Nor (after making a dubious reference to panic stops) can you claim that subjective agility, steering feel, and braking feel don't matter to some people in the market for a sports car, nor have you made the case that the 335i/IS350 vs Porsche is in any way relevant to our Corvette vs 911 discussion.
And why would you deny saying it when anyone can look a few posts back and see CLEARLY that you have?
Someone else in the thread used the term, 'intellectual dishonesty' - they were being too polite.
But even on top of the evident dishonesty, even if we undertake your ridiculous notion that we should 'provide proof', I would respond thus:
There needs to be no 'proof'!
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for the back seat.
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for its ability to drive better than other 'luxury sports cars' in the snow.
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for safety features that other luxury cars may not have.
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for any and/or all combinations of the aforementioned.
If you disagree with that, great. The overwhelming majority of people here don't. You are the fringe case, and as with all fringe cases, your opinion and/or relevance is marginal at best.
And that's being generous.
09-27-2013, 02:07 PM
#577
Again, evasion.
Nah..you haven't.. amirite?
Actually you have:
I reiterate: you are a fraud. You attempt to evade even the most simple of common sense answers by querying for 'proof'.
And why would you deny saying it when anyone can look a few posts back and see CLEARLY that you have?
Someone else in the thread used the term, 'intellectual dishonesty' - they were being too polite.
But even on top of the evident dishonesty, even if we undertake your ridiculous notion that we should 'provide proof', I would respond thus:
There needs to be no 'proof'!
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for the back seat.
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for its ability to drive better than other 'luxury sports cars' in the snow.
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for safety features that other luxury cars may not have.
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for any and/or all combinations of the aforementioned.
If you disagree with that, great. The overwhelming majority of people here don't. You are the fringe case, and as with all fringe cases, your opinion and/or relevance is marginal at best.
And that's being generous.
Nah..you haven't.. amirite?
Actually you have:
I reiterate: you are a fraud. You attempt to evade even the most simple of common sense answers by querying for 'proof'.
And why would you deny saying it when anyone can look a few posts back and see CLEARLY that you have?
Someone else in the thread used the term, 'intellectual dishonesty' - they were being too polite.
But even on top of the evident dishonesty, even if we undertake your ridiculous notion that we should 'provide proof', I would respond thus:
There needs to be no 'proof'!
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for the back seat.
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for its ability to drive better than other 'luxury sports cars' in the snow.
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for safety features that other luxury cars may not have.
My common sense tells me that no one buys a damn 911 for any and/or all combinations of the aforementioned.
If you disagree with that, great. The overwhelming majority of people here don't. You are the fringe case, and as with all fringe cases, your opinion and/or relevance is marginal at best.
And that's being generous.
I never said those were the only reasons why people buy 911s. I said those are advantages that could sway people toward the 911 over the Corvette, if one were realistically considering both. Other factors have been discussed before: build quality, performance, fun-to-drive, style, customization, dealer service, and yes, prestige too. Those are things in which the 335i/IS350 do not match the 911 (and sports cars in general) on every level. If it were, BMW wouldn't be making Z4s.
And country of origin is also a factor. There are Americans for whom the Corvette is the only choice, no matter how good a Porsche is. The converse is true in Germany. The point about Canada was to compare what happens on neutral ground.
And do you even know why I've been asking for proof?? It's because guys like RocketGuy have claimed the 911 is inferior based on his "merit-based" system, which apparently includes a list for the Corvette's qualities that are just as long as (or longer than) the 911's. This list, to this day, is still M.I.A. It's pretty apparent you've been blinded by some crazy obsession to attack me personally, so much so that you've missed what I've been saying all along: subjectivity matters. I'm using the objective card to see how they'd respond when that boot is on the other foot. It's their own card, for chrissake.
Last edited by Guibo; 09-27-2013 at 02:20 PM.
09-27-2013, 02:22 PM
#578
'As quick' might be true in SOME performance tests, as seen on the instrumented tests on the clip. As 'rewarding'? Have to reserve my judgment until I drive the C7, but I doubt it's even going to be close on that one.
That makes it obvious which car they're biased against 
.
.
09-27-2013, 03:05 PM
#579
Instructor
I never said those were the only reasons why people buy 911s. I said those are advantages that could sway people toward the 911 over the Corvette, if one were realistically considering both.
How many people ever in the history of the world bought the 911 over the Corvette (or over any other car for that matter) solely because of the functionally useless back seat? You honestly think this is even worth debating?... or even pointing out?
Here is a quote from one of your earliest posts in this thread:
Now, I know you're probably going to say those things don't matter to you. But those are objectively things that the Porsche has and the Corvette doesn't. That they don't matter to you does not mean they don't matter to other people with the means and willingness to pay.
I will agree to one thing: Subjectivity DOES matter.
And that is the primary reason the 911 sells the way it does.
IMO the 911 is an overpriced, overengineered marketing MARVEL, the likes of which the automotive industry has never seen. It has benefited from DECADES of marketing hype that have given it a halo of near invulnerability in the market.
Is it a good car? No doubt.
Is it a better *sports car* than the C7? I would say no, not really. Physics and chassis architecture are not it's friend (despite your fringe case rear traction in snow example), and it simply does not put up the numbers.
Now, is it a better status symbol than a Corvette? Probably.
And therein lies the heart of it IMO.
Are there a few people out there that buy the 911 on its own merit of having a backseat, snow traction, fluffy dealer experience etc?... possibly.
Common sense and real world experience tell me the OVERWHELMING majority of people who buy a 911 do so more for the ability to say they 'own a Porsche 911', and their enjoyment of the status (perceived or real) thereby afforded.
And I promise, I'm not the only one who adheres to this world view.
09-27-2013, 04:07 PM
#580
And again, these are fringe cases which the VAST majority of potential buyers don't care about.
How many people ever in the history of the world bought the 911 over the Corvette (or over any other car for that matter) solely because of the functionally useless back seat? You honestly think this is even worth debating?... or even pointing out?
How many people ever in the history of the world bought the 911 over the Corvette (or over any other car for that matter) solely because of the functionally useless back seat? You honestly think this is even worth debating?... or even pointing out?
Again, I wonder if you even understand why we even got into these "fringe" cases in the first place: It stemmed largely from RocketGuy's assertion that an objective list of qualities for the Corvette is as long as (or longer than) that of the 911. I've been asking for this list, while providing some items of my own. This is not solid grounds for you to go apesh1t and thinking I'm the one looking at it purely from an objective perspective.
So my common sense reasons aren't so hair-brained after all, eh.
And a sports car is not necessarily only about "putting up the numbers." Nor does GM market the C7 only as a sports car based on numbers. They've been hyping its premium quality, and have marketed it as a luxury sports car.
All you've added here is just another data point among many in the Corvette fandom for why you/they think it's not worth the money. In other words, nothing new. The free market is the final arbiter of what a product should cost to the consumer.
Are there a few people out there that buy the 911 on its own merit of having a backseat, snow traction, fluffy dealer experience etc?... possibly.
Common sense and real world experience tell me the OVERWHELMING majority of people who buy a 911 do so more for the ability to say they 'own a Porsche 911', and their enjoyment of the status (perceived or real) thereby afforded.
Common sense and real world experience tell me the OVERWHELMING majority of people who buy a 911 do so more for the ability to say they 'own a Porsche 911', and their enjoyment of the status (perceived or real) thereby afforded.