Stingray vs. BMW M4
05-20-2014, 11:40 PM
#41
I drove an M4 and it is nowhere close to my c7 as far as performance and handling are concerned. The interior was cramped more than the vette also. Car was nice but felt like a toy.
05-21-2014, 02:16 AM
#42
Drifting
I've always hated BMW's... I never understood the phrase "ultimate driving maching". Every BMW I've driven was boring and dull. Not to mention their interiors for the past 10 years across all 183232 models all looks the same.
Also, I've never understood the argument about displacement from the import crowd. Maybe back in the 70's when big V8's were getting 10mpg this was a valid point. But now, most modern V8's are just as efficient as the smaller displacement rivals.
My dad always tried to argue this with his 2.0L S2000, arguing that it made 120hp per liter. Yet, it made a whopping 150lb of torque and got worse mileage than my LS3 Vette making 3x the torque. The car had ZERO advantage to having the tiny 2.0L engine.
Also, I've never understood the argument about displacement from the import crowd. Maybe back in the 70's when big V8's were getting 10mpg this was a valid point. But now, most modern V8's are just as efficient as the smaller displacement rivals.
My dad always tried to argue this with his 2.0L S2000, arguing that it made 120hp per liter. Yet, it made a whopping 150lb of torque and got worse mileage than my LS3 Vette making 3x the torque. The car had ZERO advantage to having the tiny 2.0L engine.
On a side note, when I got back to my car in the grocery store parking lot today a 911 Turbo Cabrio was parked next to me. I don't know what year as I don't follow them that closely. I took a good look at this one. Smaller than a vette, except for the massive fender flares in the back. The skin looked like it was pulled tight over the frame. Fit and finish were very good, paint was excellent, lots of nice little trim pieces around the top. Corvette is great bang for the buck but if money is no object, the extra $100k buys a seriously nice car.
05-21-2014, 02:56 AM
#43
Instructor
The thing up until the C7 with the BMW's has been that the M3 out of the box is a much more balanced, controllable car. It also is a racer out of the box with very little more needed to go from street to track. I track mine all the time and I can tell you the M3 is the most confidence inspiring car I have ever driven, predictable, balanced and easy to drive at the limits.
Up until the C7 it took a fair amount of mods in a Corvette to have a car that was not edgy at the limits. Raw power doesn't make up for an incredibly balanced car with great driving behavior. My M3 won't make the torque my new C7 does but there are plenty of M3 drivers than can take a vette all day because they aren't worried about what the car might do. There dependable and solid cars. I am excited to enter the Corvette world, I wasn't willing to even consider doing that though until the C7.
Up until the C7 it took a fair amount of mods in a Corvette to have a car that was not edgy at the limits. Raw power doesn't make up for an incredibly balanced car with great driving behavior. My M3 won't make the torque my new C7 does but there are plenty of M3 drivers than can take a vette all day because they aren't worried about what the car might do. There dependable and solid cars. I am excited to enter the Corvette world, I wasn't willing to even consider doing that though until the C7.
The thing about individual car forums is that their car is always the best and all others suck.
Let's face it, c7 Corvette is an exceptional vehicle and probably best bang for your buck performance wise.
But to say the that bmw m3 or m4 are not in the same category performance wise is pure ignorance!
They are both awesome cars, different strokes for different folks
05-21-2014, 05:00 AM
#44
Safety Car
Thing about the M4 is that you can get a used 335i that does 99% of what the M4 does for half the price. Only BMW buyers would spend 3x more for the same chassis (ok, P car owners too). I think the new M4 is a rip off. At least the old M3 had a proper high revving naturally aspirated V8. It takes a lot of investment and engineering to make that work in a daily driver.
There are literally hundreds of thousands of 3 series with turbo 6 cylinders. Most will run fine with a simple chip tune to unleash 400hp crank.
There are literally hundreds of thousands of 3 series with turbo 6 cylinders. Most will run fine with a simple chip tune to unleash 400hp crank.
05-21-2014, 06:10 AM
#45
That's just not true, I had an E60 M5 for 5 years and it never went into the dealer once for anything other than fluid changes. Before that I had a 335i, same story 4 years of ownership no warranty claims and nothing every broke. I also have two X5's my E70 has only had one issue that needed repair in 4 years and that was an air spring for $80.
I do agree that the new M3/4 is just not that special over a modded 335i, but I don't necessarily agree that you can get to what is included in the M model cheaply. Putting a chip in a 335 doesn't make it an M car. I had a 335 and it takes much more, larger oil cooler, intercooler, chasis bushings, control arms, suspension. by the time you add that all up your not that far away from an M3 that will retain more value.
As for the Camaro beating an M3, I doubt you would feel nearly as good driving a 4000lb plus car vs a 3300lb car. No question on that one I would take a M3/4 over a Camaro any day.
A lot of people here have never driven an M3/4 on a track, I would encourage you to do so before you judge that car.
I do agree that the new M3/4 is just not that special over a modded 335i, but I don't necessarily agree that you can get to what is included in the M model cheaply. Putting a chip in a 335 doesn't make it an M car. I had a 335 and it takes much more, larger oil cooler, intercooler, chasis bushings, control arms, suspension. by the time you add that all up your not that far away from an M3 that will retain more value.
As for the Camaro beating an M3, I doubt you would feel nearly as good driving a 4000lb plus car vs a 3300lb car. No question on that one I would take a M3/4 over a Camaro any day.
A lot of people here have never driven an M3/4 on a track, I would encourage you to do so before you judge that car.
05-21-2014, 08:56 AM
#46
I would certainly consider an M4. The performance is similar and the 4 seats do offer some practicality not found in the C7. The M4 looks awesome but, rather mundane compared to the C7 and like noted by others, the exhaust note is .....just noise. A big factor for me was when I priced it out, it was about 10 grand more than the C7 that I have on order.
05-21-2014, 09:04 AM
#47
Drifting
That's just not true, I had an E60 M5 for 5 years and it never went into the dealer once for anything other than fluid changes. Before that I had a 335i, same story 4 years of ownership no warranty claims and nothing every broke. I also have two X5's my E70 has only had one issue that needed repair in 4 years and that was an air spring for $80.
I do agree that the new M3/4 is just not that special over a modded 335i, but I don't necessarily agree that you can get to what is included in the M model cheaply. Putting a chip in a 335 doesn't make it an M car. I had a 335 and it takes much more, larger oil cooler, intercooler, chasis bushings, control arms, suspension. by the time you add that all up your not that far away from an M3 that will retain more value.
As for the Camaro beating an M3, I doubt you would feel nearly as good driving a 4000lb plus car vs a 3300lb car. No question on that one I would take a M3/4 over a Camaro any day.
A lot of people here have never driven an M3/4 on a track, I would encourage you to do so before you judge that car.
I do agree that the new M3/4 is just not that special over a modded 335i, but I don't necessarily agree that you can get to what is included in the M model cheaply. Putting a chip in a 335 doesn't make it an M car. I had a 335 and it takes much more, larger oil cooler, intercooler, chasis bushings, control arms, suspension. by the time you add that all up your not that far away from an M3 that will retain more value.
As for the Camaro beating an M3, I doubt you would feel nearly as good driving a 4000lb plus car vs a 3300lb car. No question on that one I would take a M3/4 over a Camaro any day.
A lot of people here have never driven an M3/4 on a track, I would encourage you to do so before you judge that car.
Camaro is not a 4000lb+ car unless you go straight to the ZL1. The Camaro 1le is 3600lbs, the Z28 is 3800. Nonetheless, all three have been tracked and found to clobber most other cars, specifically from Germany and Japan on the track. The Z28 recently put the beat down on the AWD Nissan GT-R.
No question I would take the Camaro over the M3/M4 all day everyday as long as it had a V8 in it. Ironically, you get more attention in the Camaro than you would in the run of the mill BMW anyway.
05-21-2014, 09:06 AM
#48
Drifting
Agree 100%
The thing about individual car forums is that their car is always the best and all others suck.
Let's face it, c7 Corvette is an exceptional vehicle and probably best bang for your buck performance wise.
But to say the that bmw m3 or m4 are not in the same category performance wise is pure ignorance!
They are both awesome cars, different strokes for different folks
The thing about individual car forums is that their car is always the best and all others suck.
Let's face it, c7 Corvette is an exceptional vehicle and probably best bang for your buck performance wise.
But to say the that bmw m3 or m4 are not in the same category performance wise is pure ignorance!
They are both awesome cars, different strokes for different folks
Grain of salt my friends
05-21-2014, 11:20 AM
#49
Where did you find a M4 to drive? Not even to the dealers yet! The first cars are expected in mid July. The auto magazines have not even received any to test. They had a group drive only in Europe. I guess it did drive like a toy because it had to be a toy M4 you drove.
Last edited by Sailfun; 05-21-2014 at 11:28 AM.
05-21-2014, 11:29 AM
#50
Le Mans Master
Well, it is a BMW blog. What are they supposed to say, "Give it up guys, our M4's are weak, trade immediately for a Stingray".
BTW, not trying to bash BMW, they've been making great cars for a long time. I just think it's funny how some folks feel they have to defend their personal choice by bashing the competition. We like what we like. They're different cars, both great in what they are, just different.
BTW, not trying to bash BMW, they've been making great cars for a long time. I just think it's funny how some folks feel they have to defend their personal choice by bashing the competition. We like what we like. They're different cars, both great in what they are, just different.
Last edited by lt4obsesses; 05-21-2014 at 11:40 AM.
05-21-2014, 11:33 AM
#51
Racer
cmicsa, while you astutely point out that the post was written by someone named M3Guy, it by no means makes his statement any less true. take a read through MOST of the posts on this thread. . .I'm waiting for my C7 to arrive, a car that I bought instead of an M4, and clearly I wanted it more than an M4. . .but for any of us to say the M4 is a bad car, or holds no candle is purely subjective. . .a lot of us might PREFER a Vette to the BMW for reasons of styling, performance, etc. . .BUT, an M4 is a SICK car with incredible performance. . .and if you look over half the posts on this thread bashing it for a piece of crap, it absolutely highlights M3Guy's post . . .when I had my S4 I was on an Audi forum, and sure enough there were plenty of "my car is better than your car" threads about M3s too. . .it's pretty normal. This is a group of vette guys who like vettes . . .and in their eyes, everything else sucks. . .but in truth, they don't suck, we just like our car more. . .
05-21-2014, 03:17 PM
#52
Safety Car
While the BMW performs well. It simply does not perform, sound or look like the Vette. In fact I think the much cheaper Infiniti Q50/60 looks & sounds much better than the BMW 3/4 series. I want my "sports car" to be as exotic as I can afford and something that feels very different from my daily driver. IMO the BMW M4, just doesnt look/sound/feel as exotic as other "true" sports car.. and the M4 still looks too much like every other BMW daily driver that I see commuting each week.
Last edited by Daekwan06; 05-21-2014 at 03:23 PM.
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ptran00 (02-08-2018)
05-21-2014, 04:15 PM
#53
Drifting
The two quotes above sum up exactly why I'd be choosing the C7 over the Beemer. Its more exciting to own, more exciting to drive, more exciting to hear and damn sure more exciting to look at.
While the BMW performs well. It simply does not perform, sound or look like the Vette. In fact I think the much cheaper Infiniti Q50/60 looks & sounds much better than the BMW 3/4 series. I want my "sports car" to be as exotic as I can afford and something that feels very different from my daily driver. IMO the BMW M4, just doesnt look/sound/feel as exotic as other "true" sports car.. and the M4 still looks too much like every other BMW daily driver that I see commuting each week.
While the BMW performs well. It simply does not perform, sound or look like the Vette. In fact I think the much cheaper Infiniti Q50/60 looks & sounds much better than the BMW 3/4 series. I want my "sports car" to be as exotic as I can afford and something that feels very different from my daily driver. IMO the BMW M4, just doesnt look/sound/feel as exotic as other "true" sports car.. and the M4 still looks too much like every other BMW daily driver that I see commuting each week.
BTW.. for the record, and I'm just throwing it out there. The cars are BIMMERS, the bikes are BEEMERS
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ptran00 (02-08-2018)
05-21-2014, 04:16 PM
#54
Drifting
cmicsa, while you astutely point out that the post was written by someone named M3Guy, it by no means makes his statement any less true. take a read through MOST of the posts on this thread. . .I'm waiting for my C7 to arrive, a car that I bought instead of an M4, and clearly I wanted it more than an M4. . .but for any of us to say the M4 is a bad car, or holds no candle is purely subjective. . .a lot of us might PREFER a Vette to the BMW for reasons of styling, performance, etc. . .BUT, an M4 is a SICK car with incredible performance. . .and if you look over half the posts on this thread bashing it for a piece of crap, it absolutely highlights M3Guy's post . . .when I had my S4 I was on an Audi forum, and sure enough there were plenty of "my car is better than your car" threads about M3s too. . .it's pretty normal. This is a group of vette guys who like vettes . . .and in their eyes, everything else sucks. . .but in truth, they don't suck, we just like our car more. . .
I'm not saying the M3/M4/M5/M6 are not awesome performance cars, but they are certainly no Vette.. C7, C6, or even C5 when you get down to it. In terms of iconic standing I'd barely put them up there with the Camaro or Mustang, at least in the States.. the only place that matters to me.
05-21-2014, 04:29 PM
#55
Racer
i'm certainly not going to get into an argument over it. . .you're entitled to your opinion. . .but there are probably plenty more people who'd laugh when you try to compare a BMW M car to a camaro or a mustang than the other way around. . .in the states. Look, i'm buying a C7 and i couldn't be happier because for me, the thing looks insanely sexy, and the performance is second to none with a nice snarly V8 and a targa top. . .but my point is, go to a BMW forum and there are people I'm SURE disparaging our cars for being plastic and cheaply made etc. . .point being, on forums, people LOVE their cars and everything else must be crap. . .but in the real world, an M4 and a C7 are relatively comparable cars in many ways. . .as are Caymans and 911s etc. . .we all, here on this forum, are VERY partial to vettes. . .but that's our opinion and we kinda sound stupid trying to make arguments to support that opinion. . .we're all car guys, and these are both insane machines. (even though ours IS better. . .)
05-21-2014, 04:42 PM
#56
Thing about the M4 is that you can get a used 335i that does 99% of what the M4 does for half the price. Only BMW buyers would spend 3x more for the same chassis (ok, P car owners too). I think the new M4 is a rip off. At least the old M3 had a proper high revving naturally aspirated V8. It takes a lot of investment and engineering to make that work in a daily driver.
There are literally hundreds of thousands of 3 series with turbo 6 cylinders. Most will run fine with a simple chip tune to unleash 400hp crank.
There are literally hundreds of thousands of 3 series with turbo 6 cylinders. Most will run fine with a simple chip tune to unleash 400hp crank.
but it still far from being M car.
so much things are different.
also reliability is much worse than E92 M3 (ask BMW mechanics).
Anway, new M4 doesn't look to be not as pure and tantalizing driving machine as E92, E46 and etc.
i really wonder how E92 stacks against C7 Z51...
that screaming V8 is something totally crazy...
05-21-2014, 06:44 PM
#57
Having owned a tuned e92 335 for 5 years which I've tracked many times as seen here, I will have to say it is faster than a stock c7 (dynos 450whp with 35% E85 and would be 500whp+ with upgraded turbos) and handles as good as an M3 with KW v2 coilovers and M3 sway and links... but it's no M. Something about M just feels more solid and I couldn't achieve that with my fully modded car.
btw my 335 was in the dealer 26 times for fuel pump, misfire, timing, plugs, coilpack, injectors... most unreliable car I've ever owned. Fun when it worked tho.
btw my 335 was in the dealer 26 times for fuel pump, misfire, timing, plugs, coilpack, injectors... most unreliable car I've ever owned. Fun when it worked tho.
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ptran00 (02-08-2018)
05-21-2014, 07:00 PM
#58
Intermediate
true with 335 you can get a lot of HP.
but it still far from being M car.
so much things are different.
also reliability is much worse than E92 M3 (ask BMW mechanics).
Anway, new M4 doesn't look to be not as pure and tantalizing driving machine as E92, E46 and etc.
i really wonder how E92 stacks against C7 Z51...
that screaming V8 is something totally crazy...
but it still far from being M car.
so much things are different.
also reliability is much worse than E92 M3 (ask BMW mechanics).
Anway, new M4 doesn't look to be not as pure and tantalizing driving machine as E92, E46 and etc.
i really wonder how E92 stacks against C7 Z51...
that screaming V8 is something totally crazy...
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/cor...son-test3.html
05-21-2014, 07:44 PM
#59
Intermediate
I googled C7 Corvette today, and this video came up in the "news" feed. It's a 0-200km/h comparison of the C7 to an M4.
From BMW blog:
"Corvette Stingray C7 is powered by a 6.1-liter V8naturally aspirated unit producing 450 hp and 450 lb-ft (610Nm) of torque. The new BMW M4 gave up the V8 naturally aspirated engine, which BMW says it won’t make a return, and it is now powered by the 3.0 liter six-cylinder engine producing 430 hp and 406 lb-ft (550Nm) of torque.
So basically half the size of the C7 engine while producing almost similar power outputs."
http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/05/16/0-...e-c7-stingray/
Anyone else see this? Thoughts (other than where they found a 6.1L stingray)?
From BMW blog:
"Corvette Stingray C7 is powered by a 6.1-liter V8naturally aspirated unit producing 450 hp and 450 lb-ft (610Nm) of torque. The new BMW M4 gave up the V8 naturally aspirated engine, which BMW says it won’t make a return, and it is now powered by the 3.0 liter six-cylinder engine producing 430 hp and 406 lb-ft (550Nm) of torque.
So basically half the size of the C7 engine while producing almost similar power outputs."
http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/05/16/0-...e-c7-stingray/
Anyone else see this? Thoughts (other than where they found a 6.1L stingray)?
Does anyone have actual data such as dimensions and weight of both engines to compare? Is the M4 engine really half the size spatially of the C7 engine? Just curious because this thread kind of diverged.
05-21-2014, 08:43 PM
#60
Melting Slicks
Where did you drive an M4? You'd be the only one in this country that I know of that has.... Sorry Chuck I'm calling bullchit on this. I sat in one at the DC auto show and the car is far from cramped and nowhere near as cramped (no that the C7 is) as ANY Vette.
Last edited by ALMS21; 05-21-2014 at 09:10 PM.