LDB

Until a few minutes ago, I’d have said a clear, not true to that. Some of the DI posts in this thread claim that ethanol reduces soot in DI engines and I do not know whether that is true. But for most engines, ethanol has not had any consequential emissions effect since closed loop fuel injection came into general use around 1990 (I forget the exact date). The belief that ethanol reduces emissions was true back in the carburetor days. That’s why oxygenates were first required in fuel back in the 1980’s. Carburetors metered fuel in a fixed ratio of gallons of fuel to cubic feet of air. Since a gallon of ethanol contains less energy than a gallon of gas, blending ethanol in the fuel made the engine run leaner and hence emit less unburned hydrocarbons. But once fuel injection and closed loop control came into general use around 1990, the fuel is injected to a target low but not zero residual exhaust O2 level, and the emissions benefit of ethanol went away. But ethanol supporters conveniently ignore that and continue to imply it reduces hydrocarbon emissions when in fact, it no longer does.

Ernest_T

That's confusing agricultural fuel with top tier designation. Gas which is untaxed is intended for agricultural use and is dyed red. In Texas, you can use the red fuel on the street in vehicles with the license that says "Farm Truck"

meyerweb

From what I've read E10 is supposed to reduce carbon monoxide emissions from IC engines. At least that's what its supporters claim. But whether that is significant or not, I admit I don't really know. In any case, that's the justification for requiring it in areas that don't meet Federal air quality standards.

ratman6161

Believe me its in there. I'm far to lazy to go look it up. But its there.

James Bertuca

All that I know here in Indiana top tier gas is sold at co-op's station's, I never heard of top tier gas before. If your talking about what detergent is put into the fuel that is makes the difference in the mix, gas is gas until they add the detergent, then they call V-Power is one name I can think of Amoco white gas, Boron had made no fuel line freeze up on an on Marathon uses STP What is top tier fuel they all make the same claim.

LDB

My post should have said unburned hydrocarbons AND carbon monoxide. That was indeed the initial claim, and it was true back in the 1980's with carburetors for the reasons noted in the other post. It was first mandated in the high altitude states like Colorado that have the worst carbon monoxide problem, perhaps even as early as the late 70's. But as explained in the other post, there is not any benefit for cars since closed loop control came in about 1990. But that doesn't stop ethanol supporters from continuing to make the claim. They just fail to mention the tiny little detail that while once true, it no longer is.

JoesC5

Do you have any BP or EXXON, or Shell, or Conoco or Phillips 66 or Valero or 76 or Chevron or Mobil or Sinclair or Countrymark or Texaco stations in Indiana? I bet that you do.

All those stations sell Top Tier gasoline plus a dozen more brands.

PS- I have purchased Top Tier gasoline at the Countrymark (and is also ethanol free) in Greenfield, IN. I usually stay the night in Greenfield when I'm driving east on I-70, so I fill up there also.

rrsperry

Ok, here goes...

I used to work for Hess oil. I was the terminal manager in Baltimore. We received bulk refined oil products, stored them, delivered them...

Gasoline as base product, is a fungable commodity. Meaning with the exception of the old Sonoco 94. Gas as it is stored before delivery is all the same. 87 is 87, 91 is 91 (but only in areas were 91 is the highest grade) and 93 is 93. Gas is delivered by ship, barge(offloaded off a ship), and by pipeline. The difference between Shell, Exxon, Hess, you name it, is the additive package injected into the tanker trucks loading for delivery to stations.

All additive packages must meet minimum standards. And yes, some are better than others.

So for all that... I'll be buying 93 octane gas, from any place I want, and I'm not worried about the name on the station...lol

JoesC5

If you want the best additive package, then you need to use Top Tier brands, which are much more than the minimum additives that the law requires for all brands. The additives do make a difference and your car will thank you.. That's the difference that counts between brands.

CLLOFF

Many states require some level ethanol now. In the winter months that is all you find here in CO. Has been from many years now. I'd be shocked if GM did not properly factor this into the C7.

Most gas comes from a relatively few number of producers and refiners. There is not such thing as bad gas no a days. There maybe a little more risks with a small local, low volume station with old tanks. The premium from the "top tier" gas comes from their detergent additives. Which might be helpful depending you your driving frequency or use of other additives.

rrsperry

Seriously, we blended the additive package at the loading rack. At the Hess terminal, we loaded, Amoco, Exxon, Hess, Sheetz, you name it... and had dedicated storage for the Sunoco 94.. It's all about the same. Just try and go to a station that does a lot of volume.

James Bertuca

All I'm saying the definition of top tier gas in this state is the co-op's station, I'm not a chemist, burn what ever you want if you want to use E-10 or E-85 it's your ride, I'll stick with BP. Top tier is also sold at the airport, buy that if you want. It's the co-op that threw me the curve. Instead of using a name brand they used top tier( all gas has ethanol in it its the law.

meyerweb

Top tier isn't just a claim, and it isn't a gasoline brand's marketing. It's a minimum detergent requirement that greatly exceeds the federal government's minimum detergent standards. First specified, IIRC, by BMW when they noticed coking on valves with gasoline that met the federal spec, and later adopted by other automakers. It's not "all the same claim."

http://www.toptiergas.com/

On non DI engines, Top Tier is proven to reduce valve and piston carbon deposits, and keep fuel injectors cleaner, than gas that only meets the federal spec. It's benefit may not be as clear on DI engines.

Yes, we understand, you loaded the additive package at the terminal. But all those additive packages were not the same, were they? Some had higher levels of detergents than others. Top Tier brands have higher levels of detergent than most other brands. All gasolines are not the same by the time they're delivered to the customer.

meyerweb

Top Tier has nothing to do with ethanol, and nothing to do with a brand name. It's a standard that specified a minimum level of detergents. A gasoline either meets the top tier standards or it doesn't. Any brand, including co-op and Costco, can sign on to sell only gasoline that meets top tier standards and use that term in their marketing. BP is a retailer of Top Tier gasoline.

In Canada, Co-Op is a retailer of gasoline that meets the Top Tier specs. Any retailer that isn't on the list linked below is not. Co-Op does not appear to be a U.S. supplier of Top Tier gas, so if you have a local station of that name that claims to sell Top Tier, they may be lying.

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers/

Ernest_T

BMW had issues with gas in the 80s when the intake valves in their cars were getting gunked up with deposits. I had to have deposits cleaned in a 325i that wouldn't idle cleanly. It cost me $1300 in 1987 dollars and they used crushed walnut shells and air pressure to clean the deposits.

BMW and Southwest Research started testing different brands of gas by disassembling the engines, weighing the valve train components, then driving the cars for 40,000 miles. Then they took the engines apart again and weighed the valve train components again. Certain brands of gas, Shell and Chevron at that time, deposited significantly less gunk on the valves than other cheaper brands. I believe that Techron had just been introduced into gas then.

James Bertuca

I was miss lead, when I google top tier gas in Indiana,(they gave me those co-op stations) it gave me a map with locations, that threw me a curve. I never heard of gas reference to top tier gas in my 67 years.

COSPEED

Not sure where my posts went or why, can a moderator please explain what was not within the rules that deleted them? All was related to this thread and technical in nature.

Anyway, here is more info that for the most part is very accurate and up to date except I do not care for the damage solvent based cleaners cause to the pistons and cylinder walls with GDI super hard deposits when they break loose:


GDI ENGINE COMPLAINTS OFTEN MYSTERIOUS, HARD TO RESOLVE
JANUARY 7, 2015 JLEMAN LEAVE A COMMENT
Article describes effective remedy for high oil consumption, misfires, and performance loss showing up in these engines in as little as 3,000 miles

By Jim Leman

Many modern vehicles powered by Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) engines are showing up in service departments with mysterious complaints. These problems can put the diagnostic skills of even the best techs to the test.

Diagnosing and remedying these engines’ issues early is important. Problems can affect engine performance in as little as 3,000 miles. Neglected treatment may require a costly upper end teardown or vigorous mechanical cleaning to restore vitality.



Article published in Fixed Ops magazine, Jan/Feb issue, 2015
Article published in Fixed Ops magazine, Jan/Feb issue, 2015
A dealer (and OEM) can only hope the repairs will restore the vehicle owner’s brand trust.

Shawn Crow, service manager for Bob Robinson Chevrolet-Buick-Cadillac-GMC near Wheeling, W.VA, told me his shop sees GDI engine issues every day. “It involves ’07 models forward,” he said. “It is even more a problem in turbo versus naturally aspirated GDI engines because the intake gases in turbo engines are even hotter.”

Intake port deposits at 21,000 miles on 2009 BMW 3.5L
Intake port deposits at 21,000 miles on 2009 BMW 3.5L
Pat Goss, Motorweek’s resident master technician and owner operator of Goss’s Garage near Washington, D.C., for the last 43 years, told me that part of the diagnostic challenge is that many technicians have not been educated about issues associated with GDI engines.

Sticky deposits on piston in 2013 Porsche 4.8L after 6,454 miles
Sticky deposits on piston in 2013 Porsche 4.8L after 6,454 miles
OEMs developed GDI engines to meet 2016 CAFE fuel economy standards and they have been increasing use since 2000. The technology, however, has been around since WW II. Mercedes-Benz used it in the early ‘50s for its 300SL Gullwing, which won LeMans in 1952.

One reason GDI problem diagnosis is often elusive is that some of the diagnostic skills to identify it are long out of practice. For instance, the industry’s heavy reliance on sensor codes and scan diagnostics have eroded many techs’ ability to diagnose based on observation, knowledge and instinct.

Also disconcerting, Goss said, is that many techs and motorists still check a vehicle’s tailpipe for bluish exhaust. That diagnose for cylinder oil burning was valid in the days before cars had to use catalytic converters. These devices burn away all gases entering them, leaving zero telltale oil smoke at the tailpipe.

Problem details

GDI engines burn leaner than port fuel injection engines, a 40 to 1 versus 14.7 to 1 air-to-fuel ratio. This leaner mixture results in more conservative fuel usage but contributes to much hotter engine operating temperatures.

GDI engine concerns:

Higher cylinder temperatures and pressures released into the crankcase accelerate oil vaporization. Eventually this causes oil droplets to coat intake valves.
Cylinder injector spray position means fresh fuel is not sprayed onto intake valves and flush away vapor build up. This build up can accumulate and bake on intake valves in as little as 10,000 miles (16,000 km).
Rings can become stuck into their lands by carbonized oil sludge. This can prevent these engine’s low-tension rings from properly sealing the piston. This also causes sludge, oil, and fuel deposits to bake onto piston tops.
Since inception, GDI engines have had known problems with coking—buildup of cooked fuel deposits that foul injectors.
Konrad DeLong is a former regional field engineer for General Motors. He now is Development Coordinator for Lubrication Specialists, Inc. of Houston. In both roles, he has learned well how major vehicle engine problems like those showing up in GDI engines can shake consumer confidence.

“Customers would bring vehicles into the shop complaining of misfires or performance lags, but when techs run diagnostics the PCM [power control module] might show a diagnostic trouble code but no indicator of the cause,” DeLong recalled from his GM experiences.

“The technician would perform an intake cleaner service perhaps, but the vehicle would return with the same problem,” he added. “The cleaners and the cleaning process used couldn’t reach these deposits, and did little to address the stuck rings and crankcase vapor deposits that were the core issues.

“Having to tear down an engine to address a problem can be a real confidence shaker for the customer, causing loss of trust in the brand, so remedying the situation correctly is critical,” he said.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration believes that 60 percent of the fleet by 2016 will use GDI technology. Service centers can expect to see an increasing volume of GDI-powered vehicles in their shops. OEMs reluctance to talk about these engines’ issues, Goss believes, has hampered techs’ ability to understand, diagnose and remedy these problems for their customers.

To be fair, OEMs are studying and hoping to resolve GDI combustion chamber and valve design to prevent these issues. For instance, General Motors service bulletin document ID 3650687 addresses “engine misfires due to major carbon deposits on the intake and or exhaust valves.” It covers 17 GM models from 2009 to 2014. In other cases, motorists have sued Ford for performance issues related to its EcoBoost GDI engine. According to reports, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is investigating.

However, as is often the case, the aftermarket provides a remedy.

Solution details

Experts’ observations and my personal research of literature on the topic led to BGFuelTest.com. This site bristles with photography, obtained by borescope, of what the combustion chambers of these engines can look like even after only a few thousand miles. Other borescope studies on these engines show:

Oil sucked into the air intake and into the turbocharger at 6,454 miles on 2012 Porsche 4.8L
Intake port deposits at 21,000 miles on 2009 BMW 3.5L
ylinder scoring from deposits at 25,600 miles on Ford F-150 3.5L EcoBoost
Sticky deposits on piston in 2013 Porsche 4.8L after 6,454 miles
Goss and Crow described a supplements-based treatment they have found to be effective in remedying GDI issues. One or both described the service they do on these cars as:

A detergent- and additives-rich fuel tank and fuel system cleaner to clean deposits in the fuel line, intake manifold, fuel injectors, valves and combustion chambers
A crankcase cleaner (added to the engine and the engine operated for 15 minutes prior to an oil and filter change and then introduced as supplement treatment with the fresh oil change) to loosen and dissolve heat-baked oil sludge in the crankcase, piston rings, and oil screens and passages, rocker arms and other critical areas of engines.
An engine-performance restoration treatment to control future oil deposits.
How advisors present this remedy is important, Crow said.

“Presenting customers a supplement treatment solution can be a fine line,” said Crow, a former master-certified GM technician. “No customer who just purchased a new vehicle powered by a GDI engine wants to hear that more than routine oil and filter maintenance may be necessary.

“This is especially true now that new GM models come with a two-year free maintenance program. Why then should a customer want to pay for an out-of-pocket preventive service? However,” Crow stressed, “treating GDI engines with a motor oil additive that reduces acidity and sludge buildup between oil changes, and fuel tank and valve cleaners from BG Products is the only way we’ve found to deliver a solid, proven maintenance investment for these vehicles.”

Goss of Goss’s Garage agreed. “We have had tremendous luck with this treatment for these engines, which uses a chemical engine cleaner that dissolves and removes deposits from piston rings to help restore compression,” he said.

Summary

GDI engines deliver superior fuel economy, performance, and reduced emissions. However, these advantages come with some potentially costly problems.

Finally, where a solution is available and presented knowledgeably for GDI engine performance problems – and its use in their engine agreed to by vehicle owners — this noninvasive remedy may save them frustration, money, and lost confidence and get their vehicles running like new again.

About the author: Jim Leman, who has faced carbon and sludge buildup in the ‘30s and ‘40s engines he has rebuilt, writes often about automotive technologies and automotive retail. Reach him at jimleman@gmail.com.

B747VET

I'm continually amazed at the number of folks who purchase high end performance cars without having any understanding of top tier gas. Most of my acquaintances who own such cars make it a point to understand the overall quality of the fuels and oils which they can decide to put in their vehicles or not put in their vehicles.

There are three subjects being all scrambled up here. Ethanol, Top Tier, and direct injection.

I'm not going to spend any time addressing ethanol but will focus on Top Tier and DI.

First, DI is a whole new ball game which will necessitate a continuing review of what new practices and safeguards might best be employed to protect these engines from internal damage. The ultimate question that might need to be addressed is whether or not the rather miniscule performance gains enabled by DI are worth the other problems created by using DI. I simply don't have the answer to that question.

With respect to Top Tier gas, there is zero question as to whether or not anyone with a high performance car should be strictly using TT to the greatest extent possible. Should TT be used? Yes. Are there significant differences between the various TT products? Yes.

I was a top officer of an overseas oil refinery operation some years ago. One thing in particular that I learned from the petroleum engineers we hired was that they ALL used one particular brand of gas in their personal vehicles. Chevron. These guys had worked for Chevron, Shell, ARAMCO, and many other major oil companies.

My personal list in order of TT priority is: Chevron, Texaco, Shell, and Mobil. After that it's just a crap shoot and, either way, I still add a large bottle of Techron in my performance cars every 6 months. Such personal behaviors amount to cheap insurance against engine catastrophes.

The issue is not whether I am 100% right in my practices. It's that I have practices based on talking to a large number of petroleum experts over the last 20 years. I have a plan and I stick with it to the greatest extent possible. Also, I constantly seek new input from true experts in the field, not from my Uncle Fred who happens to own a Mercedes or from Jimmy at the local gas station.

The point is, do your research, develop a plan, and stick with it while being open to revising your plan. Any plan is better than no plan.

JoesC5

No, ALL gas does not have to have ethanol in it. It's NOT the law. As I told you, I purchase ethanol free Top Tier gasoline at Countrymark in Greenfield, IN when I'm driving on I-70 through INDIANA. Also, Countrymark is a CO-OP and here is what is on their link....

CountryMark
230 W. Osage St.
Greenfield, IN 46140
317-462-5551

Services Offered
Gas
Diesel
Ethanol-free Gasoline
Convenience Store
Major Credit Cards
CFN Cards

I couldn't buy ethanol free gas at Countrymark if it was against the law.

PS- Not only do they sell ethanol free premium gasoline(legally), they are also a Top Tier retailer, and they have stores in INDIANA.

Zymurgy

None of your posts have been deleted in this thread (except for 1 you deleted yourself). Perhaps you are thinking about posts you have in a different thread? You have 6 posts on the previous page in this thread.