A10 faster shifts than dual clutch
05-12-2016, 10:43 AM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
A10 faster shifts than dual clutch
From Autoguide. We will probably see this transmission in the C7 or C8:
Chevrolet is claiming that the new 10-speed automatic transmission in the Camaro ZL1 shifts faster than a dual-clutch transmission.
The Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 is expected to be the first volume production car to offer a 10-speed automatic and features a wider overall gear ratio spread to optimize performance and efficiency. According to the American automaker, the 10-speed’s wider 7.39 overall gear ratio enhances off-the-line performance with an aggressive first gear ratio of 4.70. Between the gears are smaller steps that help the engine maintain the optimal speed for maximum power output.
The company tested its transmission and found that it has faster shift times than the Porsche PDK dual-clutch transmission, saying that the 1-2 shift is 36 percent faster than the PDK, while the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts are 27 and 26 percent quicker, respectively.
“There is simply nothing like the experience offered with the new 10-speed automatic in the Camaro ZL1,” said Aaron Link, ZL1 lead development engineer. “It delivers nearly instantaneous, lightning-fast shifts that alter your perception of what an automatic transmission can offer in a high-performance vehicle – whether you’re on the street, drag strip or road course.”
The Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 is powered by a 6.2-liter supercharged V8 engine with 640 horsepower and 640 pound-feet of torque.
Chevrolet is claiming that the new 10-speed automatic transmission in the Camaro ZL1 shifts faster than a dual-clutch transmission.
The Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 is expected to be the first volume production car to offer a 10-speed automatic and features a wider overall gear ratio spread to optimize performance and efficiency. According to the American automaker, the 10-speed’s wider 7.39 overall gear ratio enhances off-the-line performance with an aggressive first gear ratio of 4.70. Between the gears are smaller steps that help the engine maintain the optimal speed for maximum power output.
The company tested its transmission and found that it has faster shift times than the Porsche PDK dual-clutch transmission, saying that the 1-2 shift is 36 percent faster than the PDK, while the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts are 27 and 26 percent quicker, respectively.
“There is simply nothing like the experience offered with the new 10-speed automatic in the Camaro ZL1,” said Aaron Link, ZL1 lead development engineer. “It delivers nearly instantaneous, lightning-fast shifts that alter your perception of what an automatic transmission can offer in a high-performance vehicle – whether you’re on the street, drag strip or road course.”
The Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 is powered by a 6.2-liter supercharged V8 engine with 640 horsepower and 640 pound-feet of torque.
Last edited by millpond; 05-12-2016 at 10:47 AM.
05-12-2016, 10:48 AM
#2
Le Mans Master
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St. Jude Donor '15-'16,'18
I believe I read that it is too large for the current C7. Also, doesn't FCA also offer a 10 speed in some of their cars/Jeeps? They have had issues with this tranny. At the shift times you are referring to, I doubt they will make much difference to most drivers. Reliability and durability are, in my mind, more important than shift speed. I do know that the 8 speed Steptronic in my BMW is faster and crisper than the A8 in my C7.
05-12-2016, 10:52 AM
#3
Melting Slicks
More interest in the downshifts and delay between triggering a shift and it actually happening. To me, that's more important than being 36% faster going from 1-2 than a PDK.
05-12-2016, 10:58 AM
#4
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A10 should fit in a C7, housing size is identical to A8 (without bell housings and tails). A8 was identical to A6 in this regard. I think even from Corvette to other cars, the only difference is the tail housing is replaced by the differential (and it's housing) and the bell housing is replaced by the torque tube interface.
The reason you can't just release the A10 on all cars at once is Transmission tuning is a long an arduous process and can only be done by so many people at once.
The A10 RWD from a hardware perspective is a joint GM/Ford development with the lead being Ford.
The A9 FWD from a hardware perspective is also a joint GM/Ford development with the lead being GM.
Each transmission has unique Application SW and Calibrations.
FCA uses the RWD 8-Speed ZF Transmission. There are no issues with that one other than the type of shifter gate used on some cars.
FCA also uses a FWD 9-Speed ZF Transmission, this is the one you hear all the calibration issues with.
The reason you can't just release the A10 on all cars at once is Transmission tuning is a long an arduous process and can only be done by so many people at once.
The A10 RWD from a hardware perspective is a joint GM/Ford development with the lead being Ford.
The A9 FWD from a hardware perspective is also a joint GM/Ford development with the lead being GM.
Each transmission has unique Application SW and Calibrations.
I believe I read that it is too large for the current C7. Also, doesn't FCA also offer a 10 speed in some of their cars/Jeeps? They have had issues with this tranny. At the shift times you are referring to, I doubt they will make much difference to most drivers. Reliability and durability are, in my mind, more important than shift speed. I do know that the 8 speed Steptronic in my BMW is faster and crisper than the A8 in my C7.
FCA also uses a FWD 9-Speed ZF Transmission, this is the one you hear all the calibration issues with.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 05-12-2016 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Merged Posts
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05-12-2016, 11:01 AM
#5
Thats what I dislike about the A8. It takes too long to find the "right" gear when I step on the accelerator.
05-12-2016, 11:03 AM
#6
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I like Aaron Link, nice guy, good Veh Dyn engineer. However when GM says the A8 and the A10 shift faster it's only in the upshift direction and under certain conditions. In manual mode a DSG/PDK transmission will always shift better. A torque converter type transmission has shift speed issues inherently versus a dual clutch synchromesh type transmission no matter how fast the electronics get.
05-12-2016, 11:06 AM
#7
Melting Slicks
They said all that awesome stuff about the C7 A8 too lol.
To me the FCA ZF 8 speed is a lot more fun to drive than the C7 8 speed with the paddles.
FCA ZF FWD 9 speed is a POS, had two replaced in my wife's '15 Cherokee and her new car has a good old 6 speed auto
To me the FCA ZF 8 speed is a lot more fun to drive than the C7 8 speed with the paddles.
FCA ZF FWD 9 speed is a POS, had two replaced in my wife's '15 Cherokee and her new car has a good old 6 speed auto
It's still a slushbox.
05-12-2016, 11:50 AM
#10
Le Mans Master
You've never driven one. At least not a Z. I don't know what the Stringray is like, but as someone who's had a lot of sticks and now one A8, that's crazy talk.
This trans is no more a slushbox than the M7 is the granny-gear in my old C10 pickup. They both are now very different, very modern boxes.
And who car argue with a 2.95 zero to sixty? I'll take that ride all day.
This trans is no more a slushbox than the M7 is the granny-gear in my old C10 pickup. They both are now very different, very modern boxes.
And who car argue with a 2.95 zero to sixty? I'll take that ride all day.
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RFBHD (05-13-2016)
05-12-2016, 12:02 PM
#11
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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The company tested its transmission and found that it has faster shift times than the Porsche PDK dual-clutch transmission, saying that the 1-2 shift is 36 percent faster than the PDK, while the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts are 27 and 26 percent quicker, respectively.
“There is simply nothing like the experience offered with the new 10-speed automatic in the Camaro ZL1,” said Aaron Link, ZL1 lead development engineer. “It delivers nearly instantaneous, lightning-fast shifts that alter your perception of what an automatic transmission can offer in a high-performance vehicle – whether you’re on the street, drag strip or road course.”
The Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 is powered by a 6.2-liter supercharged V8 engine with 640 horsepower and 640 pound-feet of torque.
Sure hope they still have a 3 peddle option for my planned 2019 GS when I sell my 2014!
Perhaps Tremic is working on a dual clutch trans so Chevy can offer like the European manufacturers buy from ZF. Without the less efficient torque converter and multi disk clutches operating in an oil bath, it runs cooler. If I have to buy a paddle shifted trans hope it can be one with a third peddle for at least starting.
Last edited by JerryU; 05-12-2016 at 12:09 PM.
05-12-2016, 12:10 PM
#12
Le Mans Master
You've never driven one. At least not a Z. I don't know what the Stringray is like, but as someone who's had a lot of sticks and now one A8, that's crazy talk.
This trans is no more a slushbox than the M7 is the granny-gear in my old C10 pickup. They both are now very different, very modern boxes.
And who car argue with a 2.95 zero to sixty? I'll take that ride all day.
This trans is no more a slushbox than the M7 is the granny-gear in my old C10 pickup. They both are now very different, very modern boxes.
And who car argue with a 2.95 zero to sixty? I'll take that ride all day.
There are countless threads here that indicate the A8 is still a slushbox.
If you're into drag racing, an auto is the right choice as it is faster in a straight line.
05-12-2016, 12:13 PM
#13
Melting Slicks
It has nothing to do with drag racing, many fast drag cars have 2 speed powerglides and they dont shift as fast as a modern DCT.
The A8, and A6 and A4 were plenty fast in a drag race. What the A8 (or any other torque converter auto) doesnt have is that instant response from the paddles at all RPM and throttle levels like a real DCT. Whether its .01 or .02 second to make a shift is not a huge thing, not like the car stops when it makes a shift
I've owned PDKs and BMW DCTs, while they have their little issues there is no mistaking the difference between them and a torque converter auto.
The A8, and A6 and A4 were plenty fast in a drag race. What the A8 (or any other torque converter auto) doesnt have is that instant response from the paddles at all RPM and throttle levels like a real DCT. Whether its .01 or .02 second to make a shift is not a huge thing, not like the car stops when it makes a shift
I've owned PDKs and BMW DCTs, while they have their little issues there is no mistaking the difference between them and a torque converter auto.
05-12-2016, 12:54 PM
#14
I heard this same BS about the A8 being as fast as PDK.
GM LIED.
I hope I'm wrong about the A10, but I doubt it.
Anyone who claims the A8 is in the same league as PDK, has never driven PDK, is defending their A8 purchase, are just completely clueless, or any combination of the three.
GM LIED.
I hope I'm wrong about the A10, but I doubt it.
Anyone who claims the A8 is in the same league as PDK, has never driven PDK, is defending their A8 purchase, are just completely clueless, or any combination of the three.
Last edited by 20171LE; 05-12-2016 at 12:56 PM.
05-12-2016, 01:03 PM
#15
I heard this same BS about the A8 being as fast as PDK.
GM LIED.
I hope I'm wrong about the A10, but I doubt it.
Anyone who claims the A8 is in the same league as PDK, has never driven PDK, is defending their A8 purchase, are just completely clueless, or any combination of the three.
GM LIED.
I hope I'm wrong about the A10, but I doubt it.
Anyone who claims the A8 is in the same league as PDK, has never driven PDK, is defending their A8 purchase, are just completely clueless, or any combination of the three.
05-12-2016, 01:23 PM
#16
Instructor
I heard this same BS about the A8 being as fast as PDK.
GM LIED.
I hope I'm wrong about the A10, but I doubt it.
Anyone who claims the A8 is in the same league as PDK, has never driven PDK, is defending their A8 purchase, are just completely clueless, or any combination of the three.
GM LIED.
I hope I'm wrong about the A10, but I doubt it.
Anyone who claims the A8 is in the same league as PDK, has never driven PDK, is defending their A8 purchase, are just completely clueless, or any combination of the three.
He was spewing this crap on the Gen 6 Camaro forums and got his *** handed to him there too. He'll disappear, or change his gripe so he doesn't appear as clueless as he really is.
I'll post here exactly what I posted when you put this on the Camaro forums.
Link to exact post so you guys can read his drivel.
My reply:
They didn't lie. You just clearly didn't understand what they were saying.
The transmission does shift faster than some DCT's. What you want it to say / hear is that actuating the paddle shifter executes a shift as fast as some other cars (Porsche's PDK). They never said that.
When the transmission gets the signal to shift, the internal shifting time is on par with the PDK.
When the paddle gets pulled that signal gets sent to the ECU, and the ECU checks with all the other sensors in the car so shifting gears doesn't upset the car to a point of being dangerous. It is this ECU checking that is causing the delay / shift denied that people complain about.
A simple 5 minutes of Google'ing would have saved you from looking like a troll, and just because you don't understand what they are saying / mis-interpret it, doesn't mean they are the ones that are wrong.
The transmission does shift faster than some DCT's. What you want it to say / hear is that actuating the paddle shifter executes a shift as fast as some other cars (Porsche's PDK). They never said that.
When the transmission gets the signal to shift, the internal shifting time is on par with the PDK.
When the paddle gets pulled that signal gets sent to the ECU, and the ECU checks with all the other sensors in the car so shifting gears doesn't upset the car to a point of being dangerous. It is this ECU checking that is causing the delay / shift denied that people complain about.
A simple 5 minutes of Google'ing would have saved you from looking like a troll, and just because you don't understand what they are saying / mis-interpret it, doesn't mean they are the ones that are wrong.
Last edited by Cur; 05-12-2016 at 01:31 PM.
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Lavender (05-12-2016)
05-12-2016, 01:30 PM
#17
the moral of the story, unless your racing is 1/4 mile or some short term speed contest, get a manual or a single or dual clutch sequential because they don't generate as much heat as an automatic over time.
05-12-2016, 01:36 PM
#18
Team Owner
You've never driven one. At least not a Z. I don't know what the Stringray is like, but as someone who's had a lot of sticks and now one A8, that's crazy talk.
This trans is no more a slushbox than the M7 is the granny-gear in my old C10 pickup. They both are now very different, very modern boxes.
And who car argue with a 2.95 zero to sixty? I'll take that ride all day.
This trans is no more a slushbox than the M7 is the granny-gear in my old C10 pickup. They both are now very different, very modern boxes.
And who car argue with a 2.95 zero to sixty? I'll take that ride all day.
The only thing that allows GM to perpetuate this statement is the lack of exposure to people actually having spend time in a PDK/DCT.
I've driven the A8, my car is an M7 and my other car has a DCT.
Not even close. Upshift speed means nothing unless your drag racing. Downshift, shift intelligence, paddle reaction, all those things are miles behind a true DCT.
My DCT car will complete 2 separate downshifts from the paddles before the A8 thinks about what gear it wants to go into.
05-12-2016, 01:38 PM
#19
Ya maybe the A8 can mechanically shift just as fast as a duel clutch.
the problem is the way GM tuned it, it has delays a PDK or BMW DCT transmission doesn't have.
I hope they can fix this with the A10.
the problem is the way GM tuned it, it has delays a PDK or BMW DCT transmission doesn't have.
I hope they can fix this with the A10.
