Corvette Owner Busted by GoPro for Insurance Fraud
02-14-2017, 10:58 AM
#61
Melting Slicks
To insure my C5 Z06 for one weekend at a $25,000 agreed value it costs $170 for the weekend through Ontrackinsurance.com
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djnice (02-15-2017)
02-14-2017, 11:47 AM
#62
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You'd be half right, I am a insurance adjuster/investigator and also a Porsche Club driving instructor.
Every road course you've been to takes safety "deadly serious"??? I have been to MANY events and the "tech in procedure" at HPDE events is VERY lax. To say they "generally" check the car would be an overstatement. All organizations I run with make you fill out your own tech sheet where YOU had the car inspected. All they do at tech is check the lug nuts, make sure the battery is secure, check your helmet and to assign you a number and the correct run group sticker on the front glass.
You can't put drag racing or the event this guy crashed his car at and a HPDE or road racing event even remotely in the same conversation as they are totally different. In my opinion I have been tech'd MUCH harder at a regular drag strip in a car that ran mid 10's than I have ever been tech'd at any road course event. But like many drag strips a "test and tune" or grudge race Sunday" has zero tech, none.....nada.
When you enter the gates at any race track with the intentions of getting on track it's dangerous, speed kills when you hit a stationary object. Guys die doing HPDE events, 2 at Road Atlanta in the last 5 or so years and there have been at least 10 over the last 6 years or so.
I just can't get over the blame game in life, no one takes the hit for a F up it's always call a lawyer and point the finger away from yourself.
Every road course you've been to takes safety "deadly serious"??? I have been to MANY events and the "tech in procedure" at HPDE events is VERY lax. To say they "generally" check the car would be an overstatement. All organizations I run with make you fill out your own tech sheet where YOU had the car inspected. All they do at tech is check the lug nuts, make sure the battery is secure, check your helmet and to assign you a number and the correct run group sticker on the front glass.
You can't put drag racing or the event this guy crashed his car at and a HPDE or road racing event even remotely in the same conversation as they are totally different. In my opinion I have been tech'd MUCH harder at a regular drag strip in a car that ran mid 10's than I have ever been tech'd at any road course event. But like many drag strips a "test and tune" or grudge race Sunday" has zero tech, none.....nada.
When you enter the gates at any race track with the intentions of getting on track it's dangerous, speed kills when you hit a stationary object. Guys die doing HPDE events, 2 at Road Atlanta in the last 5 or so years and there have been at least 10 over the last 6 years or so.
I just can't get over the blame game in life, no one takes the hit for a F up it's always call a lawyer and point the finger away from yourself.
I disagree 100% with the statement "speed kills" and wish we could remove it from the vernacular. Speed does not kill, not being able to stop kills. Guess what, you can't stop in a reasonable distance over 35 MPH. Ergo all speeds over 35 MPH are deadly. Since the minimum you see on a public road is 25 MPH, this basically means all driving kills (Europeans think we are nuts have 25MPH in neighborhoods, they max out at 19 MPH/30 kph and can go as low as 4 MPH/7 kph). More speed does not equal "more death," death is just as likely at any speed on a percentage basis.
I will say that more speed requires more concentration, but I can bet people are more concentrated at the track than going 85 MPH on a freeway (which in my mind is completely and utterly safe).
You are right, drag racing is not the same as road courses, much more "idiocy" it seems at the strip. People do not take it as serious as they do a road course.
02-14-2017, 12:10 PM
#63
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Insurance..........the only thing we buy in life and never want to use!!!
02-14-2017, 01:13 PM
#64
Melting Slicks
When I say they "deadly serious" I mean the conditions of the track, and making sure that if a car has an issue that everyone is notified and no one else gets hurt. The events I attend also limit the number of users on the course at a time, limit passing based on skill level, as well as a number of other precautions. The morning drivers meeting specifically focuses on safety, and that the goal is for everyone to leave in the condition they arrived. My assumption was this was the way all events would be run, because logically it makes sense.
I disagree 100% with the statement "speed kills" and wish we could remove it from the vernacular. Speed does not kill, not being able to stop kills. Guess what, you can't stop in a reasonable distance over 35 MPH. Ergo all speeds over 35 MPH are deadly. Since the minimum you see on a public road is 25 MPH, this basically means all driving kills (Europeans think we are nuts have 25MPH in neighborhoods, they max out at 19 MPH/30 kph and can go as low as 4 MPH/7 kph). More speed does not equal "more death," death is just as likely at any speed on a percentage basis.
I will say that more speed requires more concentration, but I can bet people are more concentrated at the track than going 85 MPH on a freeway (which in my mind is completely and utterly safe).
You are right, drag racing is not the same as road courses, much more "idiocy" it seems at the strip. People do not take it as serious as they do a road course.
I disagree 100% with the statement "speed kills" and wish we could remove it from the vernacular. Speed does not kill, not being able to stop kills. Guess what, you can't stop in a reasonable distance over 35 MPH. Ergo all speeds over 35 MPH are deadly. Since the minimum you see on a public road is 25 MPH, this basically means all driving kills (Europeans think we are nuts have 25MPH in neighborhoods, they max out at 19 MPH/30 kph and can go as low as 4 MPH/7 kph). More speed does not equal "more death," death is just as likely at any speed on a percentage basis.
I will say that more speed requires more concentration, but I can bet people are more concentrated at the track than going 85 MPH on a freeway (which in my mind is completely and utterly safe).
You are right, drag racing is not the same as road courses, much more "idiocy" it seems at the strip. People do not take it as serious as they do a road course.
And to say speed doesn't kill is straight up BS. Would you rather hit a wall at 50 or a 150? I already know the answer. Speed in the racing realm is MUCH more likely to take your life than any other one thing out there. How many autocross deaths have you ever heard of? None for me.
Higher speeds require more ability, higher speeds cause more damage. Would you rather hit some coolant at turn 3 at Road Atlanta running 40 mph or at 10A running 140mph? If I had a choice it would be turn 3 all day every day.
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djnice (02-15-2017)
02-14-2017, 01:20 PM
#65
Team Owner
Not much to add but it does suck that a fun day at the drags turns out to be one bad day.
02-14-2017, 01:36 PM
#66
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The suit would have failed on two issues. First, he was in a public venue where there is no "right to privacy." Second is the doctrine of "clean hands" which says that you cannot use the courts for redress when you have acted wrongly. In this case it wasn't illegal to drag race at all, but the film was the evidence that proved insurance fraud. It's a silly thing to sue over and he must not have had competent legal counsel.
02-14-2017, 02:18 PM
#67
Burning Brakes
You must live in a pretty little boxed up world.
You go racing, ALL bets are off. You take your own safety in YOUR hands. You expect the track operators to check the entire track after every pass? No one does that except the NHRA and they bring their own safety crew with them. Even the NHRA when they hold an event at a track only inspects the track after every pass on the fastest classes of cars.
Local tracks at regular events only check the track if something happens that is obvious like blown engine or lots of smoke or a crash, otherwise they are pushing cars down the track.
Racing isn't riding a bus or plane that someone else is responsible for.
Racing is dangerous, do it at your own risk. But the lawyers of the world will find ways to sue and make a buck off anything. This is partially what's wrong with the country now, no responsibility for your own actions.
This crash was driver error in my opinion.
You go racing, ALL bets are off. You take your own safety in YOUR hands. You expect the track operators to check the entire track after every pass? No one does that except the NHRA and they bring their own safety crew with them. Even the NHRA when they hold an event at a track only inspects the track after every pass on the fastest classes of cars.
Local tracks at regular events only check the track if something happens that is obvious like blown engine or lots of smoke or a crash, otherwise they are pushing cars down the track.
Racing isn't riding a bus or plane that someone else is responsible for.
Racing is dangerous, do it at your own risk. But the lawyers of the world will find ways to sue and make a buck off anything. This is partially what's wrong with the country now, no responsibility for your own actions.
This crash was driver error in my opinion.
FYI, one of those quotes is from a Porsche affiliated track website
02-14-2017, 02:58 PM
#68
Melting Slicks
I live in the same world you do only I expect more from companies willing to offer a service and charge for it. You can't advertise "drivers are able to enjoy a safe and fun day at the track" and "controlled and professionally staffed environment" or "Overall SAFETY and SAFE DRIVING is the paramount priority" and then claim zero accountability when an accident occurs that can be attributed to a surface condition.
FYI, one of those quotes is from a Porsche affiliated track website
FYI, one of those quotes is from a Porsche affiliated track website
People like you are the reason kids can't play outside unsupervised anymore, the reason coffee cups out of McDonalds windows have CAUTION HOT on them, the reason radiator caps have NEVER OPEN HOT or NEVER OPEN on them.
Geez man, do you do anything fun?Risky?
You can't make everything safe, motorsports and racing are inherently dangerous.....for many reasons. For people like me that's why I enjoy it...the adrenaline, the fear...pushing limits.
Are you a lawyer? It kind of sounds like it.
And I can guarantee you, you don't live in "my world"....jus sayin.
I'll say it again, what happened to the guy in the video was driver error. Money can buy a fast car, but it can't buy talent.
Last edited by FASTFATBOY; 02-14-2017 at 03:48 PM.
02-14-2017, 04:10 PM
#69
Burning Brakes
That said, if an HPDE track is held to a rigorous saftey standard, then so should the drag strip.
A willingness to accept and your risk exposure at the track should be limited to metrics you have a modicum of control over ie; your skill and your vehicle, not the one thing you have zero influence on---the asphalt.
B) I disagree with frivolous lawsuits like those that forced restaurants to place warnings about a hot coffee being...well, hot.
C) I enjoy fun risky things, I got married.
No but I have sued companies and prevailed, I'm 2-0.
Unless you were at that track, you can't discount the possibility there was a fluid on the track which contributed to the accident.
Last edited by ZenicaPA; 02-14-2017 at 04:11 PM. Reason: Typo
02-14-2017, 04:49 PM
#70
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Seems to me the driver made a serious driving error. When you start to loose the rear end, let off the gas IMMEDIATELY. Or suffer the consequences. At least his error only hurt him and not the other driver. And he will pay dearly for the fraud conviction for years to come.
02-14-2017, 05:00 PM
#71
Melting Slicks
I'm saying that an HPDE track and a drag strip have more in common that either do to a public road.
That said, if an HPDE track is held to a rigorous saftey standard, then so should the drag strip.
A willingness to accept and your risk exposure at the track should be limited to metrics you have a modicum of control over ie; your skill and your vehicle, not the one thing you have zero influence on---the asphalt.
You can't put asterisks on risk, you either accept it or you don't.
A) I only think kids should be supervised because I don't want either of my kids pictured on a milk carton.
I meant in the way of skint elbows, broken bones, stitches, wearing helmets etc.
B) I disagree with frivolous lawsuits like those that forced restaurants to place warnings about a hot coffee being...well, hot.
No words for this, lawsuits for dumbass people has changed our world. The people with no sense at all are being rewarded.
C) I enjoy fun risky things, I got married.
Yes, dangerous. But that danger is inherent to the driver and the equipment....usually...not the asphalt. This is one reason people PAY to use a track....that and it's legal. Expecting the driver to assume the risks caused by the venue not maintaining the track properly is flawed thinking. If you were in a store and a light fixture nails you in the head on its decent to the floor, your just going to brush it off as assumed risk by entering the store?
No one is forcing people to run at tracks, jump out of planes or anything else dangerous. If you think it's not properly maintained, walk away. This is what's wrong with our country imo, people who think they have a "safety net" when they do stupid things....and right now they do. A light fixture is different from wearing brand new leather bottom slick shoes into the store and busting your ***, then blaming it on the store, you knew the shoes were slick....but did it any way. It's not the stores fault or the maker seller of the shoe.
I've seen people die on a forklift when it tipped over:
1. The operator was probably at fault
2. It says right on the forklift roll cage do not jump off during rollover(but the operator did it anyway and died because of it)
3. His employer, forklift maker, the location of accident(different from employer) all were sued because the operator was stupid.
No but I have sued companies and prevailed, I'm 2-0.
Unless you were at that track, you can't discount the possibility there was a fluid on the track which contributed to the accident.
That said, if an HPDE track is held to a rigorous saftey standard, then so should the drag strip.
A willingness to accept and your risk exposure at the track should be limited to metrics you have a modicum of control over ie; your skill and your vehicle, not the one thing you have zero influence on---the asphalt.
You can't put asterisks on risk, you either accept it or you don't.
A) I only think kids should be supervised because I don't want either of my kids pictured on a milk carton.
I meant in the way of skint elbows, broken bones, stitches, wearing helmets etc.
B) I disagree with frivolous lawsuits like those that forced restaurants to place warnings about a hot coffee being...well, hot.
No words for this, lawsuits for dumbass people has changed our world. The people with no sense at all are being rewarded.
C) I enjoy fun risky things, I got married.
Yes, dangerous. But that danger is inherent to the driver and the equipment....usually...not the asphalt. This is one reason people PAY to use a track....that and it's legal. Expecting the driver to assume the risks caused by the venue not maintaining the track properly is flawed thinking. If you were in a store and a light fixture nails you in the head on its decent to the floor, your just going to brush it off as assumed risk by entering the store?
No one is forcing people to run at tracks, jump out of planes or anything else dangerous. If you think it's not properly maintained, walk away. This is what's wrong with our country imo, people who think they have a "safety net" when they do stupid things....and right now they do. A light fixture is different from wearing brand new leather bottom slick shoes into the store and busting your ***, then blaming it on the store, you knew the shoes were slick....but did it any way. It's not the stores fault or the maker seller of the shoe.
I've seen people die on a forklift when it tipped over:
1. The operator was probably at fault
2. It says right on the forklift roll cage do not jump off during rollover(but the operator did it anyway and died because of it)
3. His employer, forklift maker, the location of accident(different from employer) all were sued because the operator was stupid.
No but I have sued companies and prevailed, I'm 2-0.
Unless you were at that track, you can't discount the possibility there was a fluid on the track which contributed to the accident.
1. The car was spinning from the time he stood on the gas from the sound of the tires and he didn't lift(error#1).
2. Sound coming from the tires indicates a dry surface.
3. When he shifted the car into 2nd the engine was on the rev limiter(error#2)
4. When he shifted the car you can see it dart, this is often due to the driver moving the steering wheel during the shift which is common for under experienced drivers(error#3)
5. It appears the driver had trouble getting the car into second gear. Possibly this is why the steering wheel was moved. The clutch was then "dumped" this shocks the tires and makes the spinning worse(error#4).
6. Over correction from the crooked steering wheel and the clutch dump into second(error#5)
EDIT
7.It also appears his "Nannies" (Traction Control etc)were turned off(error#6)
Even if there were "something" on the track an experienced driver would not have eaten the wall.
Cause, driver error.
Last edited by FASTFATBOY; 02-14-2017 at 05:06 PM.
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jimmyb (02-15-2017)
02-14-2017, 05:02 PM
#72
Instructor
My bros thats the infamous 2nd gear step out. My c5 does it anytime it feels the need. Love going into 2nd at 55mph to brace for a step out. Traction control works and is real.
02-14-2017, 05:19 PM
#73
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I've been on track many many times where a corner worker hasn't seen things on track unless it's debris or a car spinning other than those 2 things a corner worker is just a person with a flag and they can't see everything. I have went to the pits more than once in the middle of a session and told the grid marshall that "X" car is dropping something.
And to say speed doesn't kill is straight up BS. Would you rather hit a wall at 50 or a 150? I already know the answer. Speed in the racing realm is MUCH more likely to take your life than any other one thing out there. How many autocross deaths have you ever heard of? None for me.
Higher speeds require more ability, higher speeds cause more damage. Would you rather hit some coolant at turn 3 at Road Atlanta running 40 mph or at 10A running 140mph? If I had a choice it would be turn 3 all day every day.
And to say speed doesn't kill is straight up BS. Would you rather hit a wall at 50 or a 150? I already know the answer. Speed in the racing realm is MUCH more likely to take your life than any other one thing out there. How many autocross deaths have you ever heard of? None for me.
Higher speeds require more ability, higher speeds cause more damage. Would you rather hit some coolant at turn 3 at Road Atlanta running 40 mph or at 10A running 140mph? If I had a choice it would be turn 3 all day every day.
Dead is dead. There is no such thing as deader. I'd rather not hit anything over 35 MPH.
And remember, you have brakes, you can be going 150 MPH, lose control, brake, and still be going 50 MPH when you stuff it into a wall. The problem with accidents is they ask someone how fast they were going before they braked. Which is dumb. Cars have different braking capability, your speed prior to you braking is irrelevant. Your damage and risk is dependent on how fast you are going WHEN you actually hit something.
This is why I have issues with lots of statistics, they are warped and meaningless. Accident statistics fall into this category. I'm betting most non-fatal accidents occurred at under 35 MPH when the car impacted the object it struck. If a car going 80 MPH hits a car going 60 MPH at speed, that's only a 20 MPH impact, FWIW.
02-14-2017, 05:34 PM
#74
Pro
Ouch, that was painful to watch! I hate seeing a pretty Corvette crash 
There were several factors that played into this crash, the largest one being that this owner clearly doesn't seem to know how to properly drive down the drag. I'm glad he got caught for insurance fraud, such a dishonest thing to do and it makes rates higher for the rest of us!
There were several factors that played into this crash, the largest one being that this owner clearly doesn't seem to know how to properly drive down the drag. I'm glad he got caught for insurance fraud, such a dishonest thing to do and it makes rates higher for the rest of us!
02-14-2017, 08:43 PM
#75
02-14-2017, 09:50 PM
#76
Instructor
When I say they "deadly serious" I mean the conditions of the track, and making sure that if a car has an issue that everyone is notified and no one else gets hurt. The events I attend also limit the number of users on the course at a time, limit passing based on skill level, as well as a number of other precautions. The morning drivers meeting specifically focuses on safety, and that the goal is for everyone to leave in the condition
they arrived. My assumption was this was the way allevents would be run, because logically it makes sense.
I disagree 100% with the statement "speed kills" and wish we could remove it from the vernacular. Speed does not kill, not being able to stop kills. Guess what, you can't stop in a reasonable distance over 35 MPH. Ergo all speeds over 35 MPH are deadly. Since the minimum you see on a public road is 25 MPH, this basically means all driving kills (Europeans think we are nuts have 25MPH in neighborhoods, they max out at 19 MPH/30 kph and can go as low as 4 MPH/7 kph). More speed does not equal "more death," death is just as likely at any speed on a percentage basis.
I will say that more speed requires more concentration, but I can bet people are more concentrated at the track than going 85 MPH on a freeway (which in my mind is completely and utterly safe).
You are right, drag racing is not the same as road courses, much more "idiocy" it seems at the strip. People do not take it as serious as they do a road course.
they arrived. My assumption was this was the way allevents would be run, because logically it makes sense.
I disagree 100% with the statement "speed kills" and wish we could remove it from the vernacular. Speed does not kill, not being able to stop kills. Guess what, you can't stop in a reasonable distance over 35 MPH. Ergo all speeds over 35 MPH are deadly. Since the minimum you see on a public road is 25 MPH, this basically means all driving kills (Europeans think we are nuts have 25MPH in neighborhoods, they max out at 19 MPH/30 kph and can go as low as 4 MPH/7 kph). More speed does not equal "more death," death is just as likely at any speed on a percentage basis.
I will say that more speed requires more concentration, but I can bet people are more concentrated at the track than going 85 MPH on a freeway (which in my mind is completely and utterly safe).
You are right, drag racing is not the same as road courses, much more "idiocy" it seems at the strip. People do not take it as serious as they do a road course.
The laws of physics dictate that speed does kill. Deacceleration from a higher speeds (over the same time interval) applies more forces on the body than lower speeds and consequently results in a higher probability of injury or death.
02-14-2017, 10:29 PM
#77
Melting Slicks
Answer to bolded question.
Dead is dead. There is no such thing as deader. I'd rather not hit anything over 35 MPH.
And remember, you have brakes, you can be going 150 MPH, lose control, brake, and still be going 50 MPH when you stuff it into a wall. The problem with accidents is they ask someone how fast they were going before they braked. Which is dumb. Cars have different braking capability, your speed prior to you braking is irrelevant. Your damage and risk is dependent on how fast you are going WHEN you actually hit something.
This is why I have issues with lots of statistics, they are warped and meaningless. Accident statistics fall into this category. I'm betting most non-fatal accidents occurred at under 35 MPH when the car impacted the object it struck. If a car going 80 MPH hits a car going 60 MPH at speed, that's only a 20 MPH impact, FWIW.
Dead is dead. There is no such thing as deader. I'd rather not hit anything over 35 MPH.
And remember, you have brakes, you can be going 150 MPH, lose control, brake, and still be going 50 MPH when you stuff it into a wall. The problem with accidents is they ask someone how fast they were going before they braked. Which is dumb. Cars have different braking capability, your speed prior to you braking is irrelevant. Your damage and risk is dependent on how fast you are going WHEN you actually hit something.
This is why I have issues with lots of statistics, they are warped and meaningless. Accident statistics fall into this category. I'm betting most non-fatal accidents occurred at under 35 MPH when the car impacted the object it struck. If a car going 80 MPH hits a car going 60 MPH at speed, that's only a 20 MPH impact, FWIW.
Yeh, about that............
02-14-2017, 11:10 PM
#78
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St. Jude Donor '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15- '16-'17-‘18-‘19-'20-'21
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My ex wife had control issues too ..........
02-15-2017, 06:52 AM
#79
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Ergo, speed kills is a vulgar statement.
02-15-2017, 06:56 AM
#80
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Besides, when was the last time you saw an accident where the person struck the object at over 100 MPH?
I don't think I ever have seen or heard of one. #1 cause everybody brakes, and #2 even on many tracks going over 100 MPH can be difficult in most street cars (I think on all the tracks I've actually driven, there is a singular straight where I get over 100, and then it's usually 110-140 MPH and I brake so that if I did stuff it I'd hit whatever wall at less than 100 MPH).
If you don't think you can die in a 35 MPH crash, because the video doesn't look like the above, then well I've got news for you: You can, and it's very likely you will if you hit someone at that speed.
Again, dead is dead. Deader or more dead don't exist.