Gasoline may get higher octane -- and price
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Gasoline may get higher octane -- and price
#4
There are some very silly errors in that article. The writer cites 98 octane in Europe, but it's an entirely different octane rating method (RON). As the chart in the link below shows, 98 in Europe is equivalent to 93-94 here using the US-standard (R+M/2) rating method.
http://www.pencilgeek.org/2009/05/oc...nversions.html
http://www.pencilgeek.org/2009/05/oc...nversions.html
Last edited by Foosh; 04-26-2017 at 11:03 PM.
#5
Moderator
The writer didn't do a very good job of explain the difference between European octane measurement and U.S, but I believe he did address it:
In Europe, where higher-octane gasoline is common, running super-premium fuel with about 98 octane increased fuel economy 10%. That compares with gasoline at U.S.-premium levels of 92 to 94 octane.
#6
My bad, I totally missed that, and I stand corrected. Speed reading can get you in trouble.
#7
Moderator
#8
The choices I have locally right now are
91 with no ethanol = $2.79 / gallon
93 with 10% ethanol = $2.97 / gallon
Two different stations as the one with 91 doesn't offer 93
91 with no ethanol = $2.79 / gallon
93 with 10% ethanol = $2.97 / gallon
Two different stations as the one with 91 doesn't offer 93
#9
I have a hy vee store with gas station near me that has ethanol free 93 that I use for a few tanks prior to winter hibernation.
#10
Team Owner
Overall, I thought the article explained everything very well. It was aimed at the general consumer, not only engineers.
Last edited by JoesC5; 04-27-2017 at 08:03 AM.
#11
I use top tier during the "driving season" but I would rather have non-top tier without ethanol than top tier with ethanol in the tank and fuel system when the car is sitting for an extended period of time. All of the top tier fuel in the area has ethanol, not surprising here in corn country.
#12
Team Owner
I use top tier during the "driving season" but I would rather have non-top tier without ethanol than top tier with ethanol in the tank and fuel system when the car is sitting for an extended period of time. All of the top tier fuel in the area has ethanol, not surprising here in corn country.
What is interesting, is that Texas with it's huge population, with all it's oil wells, and no huge corn fields, only has 160 stations that sell ethanol free gasoline, yet Iowa, with it's small population, with no oil wells(that I'm aware off) but with huge corn fields, has 257 stations selling ethanol free gasoline.
A lot of the reasons that determine which states have ethanol free gasoline and those that don't is pure politics.
#13
Drifting
Cost of generating octane in a refinery is 1-2 cents per gallon per octane. Premium gas is priced much higher than that due to the typical marketing strategy in almost all industries, namely that profit margin is higher on premium products. But if the octane of all grades was increased, one logically should expect the added cost to be closer to the true cost than to today’s 6-12 cents per octane differential for premium versus regular.
As far as Europe versus US octane, as others have pointed out, Europe posts R number which is 5-6 higher than the (R+M)/2 number that the US uses. So our grades of 87 and 93 would be equivalent to their 92-93 for regular and 98-99 for premium. Most Euro regular is 95, while Euro premium is split between 99 and 100. So yes, Euro octane is a bit higher than ours, but not by nearly as much as the raw numbers would indicate. The reason it is higher is that we make a much higher fraction of the barrel into gasoline, while they make relatively less gasoline, and more diesel. When you push to squeeze max gasoline out of a barrel of crude like we do, it gets a bit tougher to make the octane. Hence ours comes out a little bit lower.
As far as Europe versus US octane, as others have pointed out, Europe posts R number which is 5-6 higher than the (R+M)/2 number that the US uses. So our grades of 87 and 93 would be equivalent to their 92-93 for regular and 98-99 for premium. Most Euro regular is 95, while Euro premium is split between 99 and 100. So yes, Euro octane is a bit higher than ours, but not by nearly as much as the raw numbers would indicate. The reason it is higher is that we make a much higher fraction of the barrel into gasoline, while they make relatively less gasoline, and more diesel. When you push to squeeze max gasoline out of a barrel of crude like we do, it gets a bit tougher to make the octane. Hence ours comes out a little bit lower.
#14
Team Owner
Cost of generating octane in a refinery is 1-2 cents per gallon per octane. Premium gas is priced much higher than that due to the typical marketing strategy in almost all industries, namely that profit margin is higher on premium products. But if the octane of all grades was increased, one logically should expect the added cost to be closer to the true cost than to today’s 6-12 cents per octane differential for premium versus regular.
As far as Europe versus US octane, as others have pointed out, Europe posts R number which is 5-6 higher than the (R+M)/2 number that the US uses. So our grades of 87 and 93 would be equivalent to their 92-93 for regular and 98-99 for premium. Most Euro regular is 95, while Euro premium is split between 99 and 100. So yes, Euro octane is a bit higher than ours, but not by nearly as much as the raw numbers would indicate. The reason it is higher is that we make a much higher fraction of the barrel into gasoline, while they make relatively less gasoline, and more diesel. When you push to squeeze max gasoline out of a barrel of crude like we do, it gets a bit tougher to make the octane. Hence ours comes out a little bit lower.
As far as Europe versus US octane, as others have pointed out, Europe posts R number which is 5-6 higher than the (R+M)/2 number that the US uses. So our grades of 87 and 93 would be equivalent to their 92-93 for regular and 98-99 for premium. Most Euro regular is 95, while Euro premium is split between 99 and 100. So yes, Euro octane is a bit higher than ours, but not by nearly as much as the raw numbers would indicate. The reason it is higher is that we make a much higher fraction of the barrel into gasoline, while they make relatively less gasoline, and more diesel. When you push to squeeze max gasoline out of a barrel of crude like we do, it gets a bit tougher to make the octane. Hence ours comes out a little bit lower.
I believe that the general population would support the auto industry going to only high compression engines if the fuel savings were more than the increase in the cost of the gasoline(or even if it were a break even scenario).
#15
Drifting
I agree with you. I only put ethanol free in my Corvettes because they do sit for long periods of time(and not driven at all during the winter months). Fortunately, I have several(13) local stations here in Springfield, MO that are Top Tier and sell ethanol free gasoline, so I don't have to choose.
What is interesting, is that Texas with it's huge population, with all it's oil wells, and no huge corn fields, only has 160 stations that sell ethanol free gasoline, yet Iowa, with it's small population, with no oil wells(that I'm aware off) but with huge corn fields, has 257 stations selling ethanol free gasoline.
A lot of the reasons that determine which states have ethanol free gasoline and those that don't is pure politics.
What is interesting, is that Texas with it's huge population, with all it's oil wells, and no huge corn fields, only has 160 stations that sell ethanol free gasoline, yet Iowa, with it's small population, with no oil wells(that I'm aware off) but with huge corn fields, has 257 stations selling ethanol free gasoline.
A lot of the reasons that determine which states have ethanol free gasoline and those that don't is pure politics.
As far as choosing non-top-tier ethanol free over top tier ethanol, while I don’t like ethanol for economic and political reasons, I think that’s a mistake from your car’s standpoint. In a modern car there is no performance or risk debit to ethanol, but there is a benefit to top tier. So why give up the top tier benefit for no performance reason. True, if I had top tier ethanol and ethanol free side by side, I’d choose ethanol free, but that preference wouldn’t be enough to make me choose non top tier.
As far as all the hype about ethanol dangers of winter storage, water separation, etc, it’s mostly just that, namely hype. Probability of having a problem is low and exactly the same with or without ethanol. It only happens when there are screw-ups in the distribution system, and presence or absence of ethanol does not change probability of a screw up. The only difference is that if you are unlucky and get a last pre-storage batch of gas where there’s been a screw up, there will be a bit more water if ethanol is present. But if you use a non-IPA stabilizer in storage, you are fully protected with either fuel.
#16
Drifting
If all gasoline sold were 93 octane minimum, then the cost would only be a few cents above what regular is priced now? The logistics of getting the gasoline from the refinery to the retailer sure would be simpler, thus reducing costs.
I believe that the general population would support the auto industry going to only high compression engines if the fuel savings were more than the increase in the cost of the gasoline(or even if it were a break even scenario).
I believe that the general population would support the auto industry going to only high compression engines if the fuel savings were more than the increase in the cost of the gasoline(or even if it were a break even scenario).
#17
Team Owner
It’s a bit more complicated than that. The cost of octane is 1-2 cents per octane per gallon starting from today’s base, but as you go higher and higher, the cost keeps increasing. Generating 6 whole numbers on the entire pool would almost certainly push you above 2 cents. I’ve never tried to make that calculation so I don’t know how much more. I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t go as high as the 6-12 cents of today’s regular to premium differential, but 3-5 cents per octane per gallon wouldn’t surprise me if you are talking the entire pool several numbers higher than today.
Currently, we have 85, 87, 89 and 91 octane gas pipelined into our local terminal. Then we have 87, 89, 91 and 93 trucked from our local pipeline terminal to our local retailers.
Last edited by JoesC5; 04-27-2017 at 11:18 AM.
#18
Team Owner
Not really true. Texas has almost no ethanol free gas because its big cities (Houston, Dallas, San Antonio) are among the areas requiring reformulated gas, which in turn requires ethanol. While in theory you can sell ethanol free in rural areas of Texas, in practice, when the high volume areas require ethanol, the low volume areas are going to get it too.
As far as choosing non-top-tier ethanol free over top tier ethanol, while I don’t like ethanol for economic and political reasons, I think that’s a mistake from your car’s standpoint. In a modern car there is no performance or risk debit to ethanol, but there is a benefit to top tier. So why give up the top tier benefit for no performance reason. True, if I had top tier ethanol and ethanol free side by side, I’d choose ethanol free, but that preference wouldn’t be enough to make me choose non top tier.
As far as all the hype about ethanol dangers of winter storage, water separation, etc, it’s mostly just that, namely hype. Probability of having a problem is low and exactly the same with or without ethanol. It only happens when there are screw-ups in the distribution system, and presence or absence of ethanol does not change probability of a screw up. The only difference is that if you are unlucky and get a last pre-storage batch of gas where there’s been a screw up, there will be a bit more water if ethanol is present. But if you use a non-IPA stabilizer in storage, you are fully protected with either fuel.
As far as choosing non-top-tier ethanol free over top tier ethanol, while I don’t like ethanol for economic and political reasons, I think that’s a mistake from your car’s standpoint. In a modern car there is no performance or risk debit to ethanol, but there is a benefit to top tier. So why give up the top tier benefit for no performance reason. True, if I had top tier ethanol and ethanol free side by side, I’d choose ethanol free, but that preference wouldn’t be enough to make me choose non top tier.
As far as all the hype about ethanol dangers of winter storage, water separation, etc, it’s mostly just that, namely hype. Probability of having a problem is low and exactly the same with or without ethanol. It only happens when there are screw-ups in the distribution system, and presence or absence of ethanol does not change probability of a screw up. The only difference is that if you are unlucky and get a last pre-storage batch of gas where there’s been a screw up, there will be a bit more water if ethanol is present. But if you use a non-IPA stabilizer in storage, you are fully protected with either fuel.
The station closest to me changed from ethanol free to E10 without any notice, and I thought I was putting ethanol free gasoline into my 1956 and 1964 Corvettes. Guess what, the E10 screwed up the carbs in both vehicles, that don't get driven very much. Both were gummed up and had to be rebuilt. For years(15+), when I was putting ethanol free gasoline in those two cars, I never had a problem.
On my riding mower, I drain the gas tank and then run it dry before putting it away for the winter(after I change the oil), thus I haven't had a problem running E10 in it.
If the ethanol creates no problems, then why don't you explain to the readers why the pipelines do not ship gas with ethanol added to it at the refinery, but instead, ship the ethanol separately to the local terminals to be added to the tank truck when it is filled for immediate delivery to the retailers.
#19
Burning Brakes
My local Costco is $2.539 for 93 Top Tier with 10% ethanol. Pretty good, I'd say!
#20
Team Owner
cheapest 91 E10 = $2.44
cheapest 91 E0 = $2.57
cheapest 93 E10 = $2.69