Liquid1

Wrecks and other serious events are relatively common in my experience at the track. On average I would estimate about one pretty serious issue per day when the track is being fully used (approx 100 cars in various run groups) or 1% probability per day of driving. I've seen traditional wrecks where people hit the wall (usually some form of the car getting loose) to cars rolling over to fires. These are usually individual events from overdriving the car rather than a two or more car incident. Thankfully in all cases, at least as far as I know, nobody was seriously injured in any of these events.

Not to get off topic here but I've noticed there is a certain bravado about turning "nannies" off while at the track. I think this comes from a decade or more ago when in many cars they weren't very good and could actually cause some serious problems by coming on at the wrong time. In a C6 and particularly a C7, these "nannies" have been tested extensively with track driving and are much more likely to save your *** if something goes wrong versus cause an issue or to impede your ability to become the most amazing driver. I know I was certainly very happy I had it on when I was at Lime Rock in the rain and 35 degrees. I didn't notice the track had a slightly off camber dip right at track out in the Downhill and I started to lose the car when hitting that patch of the track.

There is no doubt this is a dangerous activity. This remains true even if you don't push too hard because as Poor-sha pointed out, you can have a mechanical failure or someone can drop coolant on the track right ahead of you in the wrong spot which can cause an issue.

One final comment is I've seen individuals sometimes focus on making performance modifications to the car. Much more important is to consider any safety gear that you determine you need. This can be a very complicated and personal decision but for me, a HANS was a critical element. Stay safe and good luck to everyone out there.

Bill Dearborn

One of the problems with every class of drivers on the track is mental fatigue. Track driving is mentally and physically challenging. After a twenty minute session you come off track sweating and tired from pulling Gs but the mental concentration required to get around the track quickly tires your mind. Incidents tend to happen after drivers get tired. They start to make mental errors and those mental errors can lead to calamity. The second day of a two day event is usually the worst.

For participants the constant reminders you hear in Driver's Meetings and Classrooms do apply. Keep yourself hydrated as dehydration can lead to mental mistakes. If you notice you aren't hitting your marks as easily as you did earlier in the day, are missing apexes that you didn't miss before and are trying to force yourself into driving better it is probably a good idea to head for the pits and park the car and rest for a while.

If I have signed off a student to drive on their own I will usually get back in the car with them on the last session of the last day.

Bill

DinkyDonut

How often do you instruct at VIR, and with which groups? I'd love to have you as my instructor at some point.

...just need to figure out how to fit in a C5 with a helmet on first.

Bill Dearborn

I couldn't arrange coming to the Glen next week but I will be there for the GVC Event on June 9, 10, 11. I will be in Garage 22. My son is coming over from Michigan to run his 14 Z51 on Saturday and Sunday.

Does the Glen still insist that visitors to an HPDE have to be on an access list provided by the event organizers? If you want to stop by send me a PM with your name.

I am going to be trying out a set of Pirelli Slicks for the first time. Rears look a little strange on the 18x13 wheels (probably would work better on a 12 inch wide wheel but I don't have any).

Bill

Mordeth

At the event last week with CHIN they did require visitors be on the access list. I will also be at the GVC event in early June and will stop by!

Greg00Coupe

One point missing in all these points are the standards that the event organizers set. We're comparing apples to oranges without knowing the standards used in the events. They allow unlimited passing, wheel to wheel racing is a lot more risk then in a setting where there is point by passing on straight only and IS STRICKLY ENFORCED.

My other point would be to be careful the tracks you run on. I would never run at the glen. I'm not running on a track where the guardrails are so close to the race track. Seen too many NASCAR wrecks there to want to take that on. I watch You Tube videos of new tracks I go to before I decide if they have enough run off room.

The incidents I have seen were dumb drivers doing dumb stuff just like on the public roads. First group goes out usually the track is damp and cold, so are the drivers and cars. Some macho person goes full out and crashes. Gets tows off, racing resumes and another guy does the same!!!

Crazy people.

Mordeth

The Glen is a fantastic track and you are really missing out. But to each their own.

Also, every single group I run with at the Glen has pretty strict passing rules in Novice, Intermediate and Advanced. This includes required point-bys, only passing on the straights and always passing off-line for Novice and Intermediate.

The rules are strictly enforced, reviewed with everyone every few hours and violators are spoken to immediately and asked to leave if they don't comply.

As a driver advances over time to "higher" groups, the passing rules will change (where, when and how to pass), but point-bys are still ALWAYS required in every group I go with.

I was at the Glen last week and IMSA race car drivers were there testing their cars (ROUSH Mustangs) in the Advanced/instructor group. These guys were required to only pass when given a point-by.

The groups I participate with are: BMW, AUDI, Porsche, CHIN, HOD, NASA, Trackmasters, Phoenix and SCDA. All require point-bys and all strictly enforce it.

SK360

Have to agree with this, being an AutoXer I thought I had the focus and preparation for track sessions, my first HPDE last session last lap before cooldown I completely zoned out in the back section and luckily snapped back to it before coming to the next turn, scared the **** out of me and was thankful to be at the end of the day.

Gearhead Jim

My sample is a bit old, but from 2000 to 2006 I did several HPDE weekends each year in our Z28 then C5 and then C6. Surprisingly, none of them were organized by Corvette clubs- all were Porsche or BMW or non-branded groups.

Each weekend probably had something like 50 cars participating.
Each weekend averaged 1 car totaled, 1 car seriously damaged, and 1 or 2 with minor damage. I was amazed at the carnage. Fortunately, no serious injuries. All crashes were single vehicle.

At that time, my State Farm insurance was good on the track, even collision. Definitely not covered now.

Autocrossing is much safer, but in the last few years I've seen a few cars totaled that way also. A-X courses seem to be getting closer to curbs and light poles than in the past. And people, including event organizers, seem to think that nothing can go wrong at "low" speeds. They are wrong.

snow

Great thread with plenty of good info!

ea327

Ok, so do you buy it? I'd hate to go out there and smash up my car on my dime.

Mordeth

Highly personal decision. If you are unsure, then buy it simply for piece of mind. It will take that particular worry away from you and let you focus on driving, learning and having fun.

If you end up a track rat like some of us then you may end up reconsidering buying it over and over and over and over...

Mad Dog 24

This should be a must read thread before any HPDE days!

Mordeth, I think I remember you from last year. You had a trailer tow behind with your track tires? Appears some rain early Monday, I'm hoping a buddy can bring my rain tires. Were staying at the Seneca Sunday and Monday.

Bill, I will be on a much needed vacation for the June dates. Maybe we can hook up in July or Sept. with Track Masters. We got some big camber out of our car today front and rear looking forward to trying it out. Jeff B is letting me borrow his Pyrometer, will see what the temps tell.

Fatigue is the worst. I've come in early and it as always a good decision. Its usually combined with the end of the day greasy track and sweaty brows!

Bill Dearborn

Actually I believe the Glen is better than tracks that have so called run off room. In a lot of the dangerous areas the Glen actually has much better run off room than tracks like VIR. They have what looks like long distances to some nasty obstacles but you are sliding over grass and you just don't slow down. In the areas where the guard rail is close to the track edge at the Glen you don't have far to slide and the guard rail is fairly smooth and designed to channel the car down the track and minimize injury. Yes, there are a couple of places if you drop a wheel off or try to cramp the car in the turn that you can loop the car into the opposite wall but you can do the same at a lot of tracks including the so called wide open ones. In general I feel more comfortable at the Glen than I do at VIR or CMP.

Bill

Michael A

I've always been a person to turn off nannies, not because of "bravado", but because more often than not they screwed up my recovery. I never knew what the car was going to do. They also kicked in too early, upsetting the car. The nannies over the past few years, though, are like like night and day to the old ones. The limits are much higher and more accurate. They usually do the right thing now. If you are driving where the nannies are kicking in, you are probably pushing it too hard. They are good enough now where they can be a learning tool. Stay below the nanny triggers by being smooth and consistent.

Michael

Foosh

Agreed, and good observation regarding the advancements in stability control. They're so good today, turning them off is not going to make most amateurs any faster, and they do save most from a lot of grief.

pgj98m3

There was a death at the Ridge this year. Member from the BMWCCBC went into a barrier and barrel rolled. Suspect he dropped wheels off edge of track and reflexively corrected resulting in a snap turn.

village idiot

Outside of the advanced run groups, virtually never. The few times I've seen it happen, we all knew exactly who it was going to happen to. It's never a surprise.

You shouldn't be scaring yourself. Your first few days, you should just be working on skill development. After a while, you're trying to get faster. If you're really trying to get faster, you should have all your skills down and lines down, then getting just a little bit faster each session. Maybe brake a 10 or 15 feet later. Don't go from the 300ft brake marker to the 200 in one session, even if you know you have a ton of room.

You don't even need to be over cautious. Just dont be an *******.

village idiot

I'm not sure I agree with that, depending on what you mean by amateurs. If you mean non-pro drivers, I disagree. If you mean 1-5 track days in, absolutely. Maybe even more than that.

I go into turns pushing the front end a little bit. I'm always a LITTLE loose, and that is way faster. The really fast guys come out of turns with the wheel straight and the momentum of the car completing the turn for them so the front tires aren't fighting the acceleration by being turned. I'm not there yet, but that's how you get a lot faster. My entry speeds and even mid turns speeds are fairly close to my pro-driver buddy. My exit speed is way behind. That's where he gets his 2-3 seconds on me. I'm guessing 75% of it is exit.

Bill Dearborn

I never found the nannies to be all that intrusive. If you are a smooth driver they rarely interfere and if you do get out of shape I have found their reaction predictable. They try to make the car go in the direction I am turning the steering wheel. Just like if I am not using the Nannies if I keep the steering wheel pointed the way I want to go I have a much better chance of recovering from an error. They do help compensate for under steer due to over cooking a corner entry and they can be a god send in helping compensate for trailing throttle over steer. The less experienced a driver is the less likely it is they will be able to over come a trailing throttle over steer situation. All stock C5s and C6s have a fair amount of trailing throttle over steer built into them and keeping your foot on the throttle in a turn is necessary. If a driver pushes too hard and suddenly lifts that trailing throttle over steer tendency can get extreme and an inexperienced driver may not react quick enough to avoid the incipient spin. That is when a stability control system will apply a single brake to try and get the back end to stay behind the front. There is no driver in the world that can do that.

Bill