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Old 08-14-2017, 12:28 PM   #41
LT1 Z51
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Wanted to see how the whole ride would be in Track suspension.

I've done Sport before, and Tour I do most days. Might try PTM Wet. We'll see, if it's just better throttle response, then I might just leave it in Tour versus PTM Wet.
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Old 08-14-2017, 01:20 PM   #42
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Throttle response is more or less irrelevant in PTM in my view. What you're really getting is a much more sophisticated eLSD in PTM mode. It is far more capable of keeping the tires glued to the pavement.

Last edited by Foosh; 08-14-2017 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 08-14-2017, 01:30 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
Throttle response is more or less irrelevant in PTM in my view. What you're really getting is a much more capable eLSD in PTM mode. It is far more capable of keeping the tires glued to the pavement.
Foosh, do you mean it "enables" you to accelerate sooner/harder coming out of apex? Don't track & am always afraid to push in curves on public roads not knowing if there's loose gravel, bump, etc. Thanks
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:07 PM   #44
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Yes, exactly!
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:28 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn View Post
I tell people to put the car in Track Wet Mode while driving on dry roads. Then go around some corners like you normally would do if you just hopped into the car to run to the store or something. Wet mode will sensitize PTM to the max and reduce the change rate of throttle application. If you have your windows open you can hear it modulating the engine (I describe the exhaust as sounding like a diesel engine being used to slow a truck using a Jake Brake). As you move up toward RACE Mode PTM gets less restrictive but is still active in RACE Mode. The Owner's Manual will tell you as you are coming off a corner to go to wide open throttle sooner than you normally would and PTM will modulate rear wheel power to the available grip. Even with slicks I haven't been able to do that all the way as it is counter intuitive to the way you drive any other car. However, I am being more aggressive with the throttle and I can hear and feel PTM working on quite a few track corners. At VIR Turn 1 it starts working about 1/2 way around the turn as I open up the throttle. The few times I have tried to go all the way to the floor the back end would start to slide left and I would have to breathe off the throttle to keep the car pointed where I wanted it to go. Haven't had the ***** to just go wide open and see if it only stepped out a little and settled down. Not some place where I want to spin off the track at 60 mph. The least of the worries is to have the Black Flag Marshall yelling at you about why you thought that was a good idea when you go see him after a 4 off or spin.

Bill
there's a video somewhere comparing lap time driving with PTM On and Off.
With PTM On, the lap time was faster and the car was more stable out of a turn.
It was also noticeable the car tracked a smoother line accelerating WOT out of a turn.
Impressive

Last edited by Dif; 08-14-2017 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:40 PM   #46
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Exactly, Frank!

It boggles my mind that some people think they're somehow going slower if the throttle pedal is not hyper-sensitive, and their tires are not breaking loose. They apparently have no idea how much time they are losing.

On the other hand, some just enjoy the process of "hooning around" with smoking tires, and donut drifting.

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Old 08-14-2017, 03:24 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
Exactly, Frank!

some just enjoy the process of "hooning around" with smoking tires, and donut drifting.
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Old 08-14-2017, 03:25 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
Throttle response is more or less irrelevant in PTM in my view. What you're really getting is a much more sophisticated eLSD in PTM mode. It is far more capable of keeping the tires glued to the pavement.
Even less important than throttle response here. Literally every road I drive to work is straight, and I don't mean kind of straight, but literally totally utterly straight.

So the eLSD doesn't do much if any work to begin with during my commute.
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Old 08-14-2017, 03:33 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
Exactly, Frank!

It boggles my mind that some people think they're somehow going slower if the throttle pedal is not hyper-sensitive, and their tires are not breaking loose. They apparently have no idea how much time they are losing.

On the other hand, some just enjoy the process of "hooning around" with smoking tires, and donut drifting.
That is not why I added the Vitnesse throttle controller. I was used to driving in Sport in my 2014 Z51 for 3 1/2 years (no mag shocks) and could tell the difference with the slower throttle response when driving in Touring with my Grand Sport.

Set my steering at Sport and NPP at Track for all driving modes. No such option for Trottle control. GM provides different throttle response programs for a reason, not so folks could be "boy racer." Set at 5 (option's 0 = OEM and 9 = boy racer) it is just a bit more responsive than OEM setting!

Just because you haven't tried, just like you tell folks who haven't tried PMT Wet, consider you don't know what you're missing!

Last edited by JerryU; 08-14-2017 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 08-14-2017, 11:40 PM   #50
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Sounds like exactly why you added it. All you need to do is press harder. The throttle controller only changes the distance you need to press to achieve more throttle. It's not remapping the ECM, it's just changing the sensitivity of the pedal. WOT is WOT w/ or without a throttle controller and regardless of what mode you're in.

If your definition of "responsive" is how far you need to move your right foot, then I suppose you're right.

Last edited by Foosh; 08-14-2017 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 08-15-2017, 12:47 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
Sounds like exactly why you added it. All you need to do is press harder. The throttle controller only changes the distance you need to press to achieve more throttle. It's not remapping the ECM, it's just changing the sensitivity of the pedal. WOT is WOT w/ or without a throttle controller and regardless of what mode you're in.

If your definition of "responsive" is how far you need to move your right foot, then I suppose you're right.
Yep, you're correct but GM provides 3 different throttle progressions for a reason! Sure you can push your foot faster and further but they do it so you don't have the delay they build into Touring, Eco and Weather modes. They "make a decision for you" to reduce the pedal sensitivity in those modes, especially the initially movement, and increase it in Sport and even more in Track. Sure they could say just push your foot harder and faster but they provide a better option.

The following are NOT the curves for the C7 or Vitesse throttle controller but from my observation and those in numerous posts and video's this is the way the C7 setting in Touring etc reacts versus the other settings. Having been used to the Sport setting for 3 1/2 years the slower initial throttle response was annoying.




In Eco, Weather and Touring mode there is a slow initial Throttle body to Pedal movement response. Annoying when you are used to having the GM Sport faster response!

Last edited by JerryU; 08-15-2017 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 08-15-2017, 12:54 AM   #52
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I don't care about throttle vs. pedal position. My foot moves easily and quickly from off throttle to floor, and both an aftermarket throttle controller as well as the variable OEM mappings of pedal position vs. throttle opening do not produce more power, or more quickly. If anything, they slow drivers down through loss of traction activating TC.

GM, like many other manufacturers, puts it in because a lot of folks seem to be fooled into thinking they're somehow getting more performance. They are not. It's nothing more than a "feel" thing, just like the amount of power steering boost. What you call a "slower initial throttle response" is meaningless in terms of actual performance, unless you just have a very lazy foot.

I completely understand why GM does what they do with the differences in pedal mapping employed in Weather and Economy modes because there are a lot of bad drivers out there, who treat the throttle as an on-off switch. In my opinion, the Vitesse exacerbates that problem. Once you're in Tour and beyond, it makes no real difference.

Last edited by Foosh; 08-15-2017 at 01:35 AM.
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Old 08-15-2017, 12:44 PM   #53
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Clay, you're right in what the car will do if the pedal is abused, so to speak, with the Vitesse installed.
The nannies intervene and Performance suffers, just like pushing the pedal too far too fast without the Vitesse.
I don't think Jerry is disputing what you're saying, but he's right when he says if you haven't tried it, it's hard to know what you're missing.

One of you is explaining Apples and the other Oranges
It's not all about hitting the pedal to WOT.
It's about feathering the pedal and receiving throttle response "equal" to pedal travel.

Yes 100% throttle is 100% with or without the Controller.
But the OEM throttle map is Not Linear and 50% pedal is not 50% throttle.
It's more like 30% if even that, which may be fine.
But with the pedal at 50% and throttle only at 30%, as you push the pedal further, it doesn't go from 30% throttle to 35 or 40%.
It "jumps" to 55 or 60% throttle and now the pedal is only, say 52% travel.
It now has to play catch up, and squeeze 100% throttle into 100% pedal travel.
At some point, 100% throttle response has to equal 100% pedal travel.
That's where the lag and jump comes in between throttle response and pedal travel.
Yes, the Vitesse crams 100% throttle response into shorter pedal travel.
But it's a "smoother" predictable throttle response, equal to pedal travel.
It helps eliminate the lag and jump between pedal travel and throttle response.

In my C6 I could feel the lag, and jump in pedal movement in relation to throttle response.
As I pushed the pedal further, it would accelerate smoothly and then there would be a big jump in acceleration.
It would happen when the throttle needed to catch up/equalize with the pedal movement as it runs out of travel.
Like pushing something that's stuck and will not move, and you push it harder and harder.
Eventually it breaks loose All at once.

I hardly notice it with the C7 A8 with the lower close ratio gears, but that's beside the point.
It's still there, just not as much.
There's a Soft spot in the beginning of the OEM throttle response to pedal travel.
GM put it there because not everyone wants or needs a hair trigger throttle.
Putting around town it drives like a sedan until the go pedal is pushed hard.
Pushing the pedal fast and hard makes no difference with or without the Vitesse
But there is a difference with the Vitesse between slowly continually pushing it.

Some seem to notice it more than others !

Jerry is trying to explain the Vitesse makes the car more enjoyable to drive with a more predictable throttle response.
Does it increase the sensitivity of pedal movement to actual throttle response, Yes.
Whether someone abuses the go pedal or not is not the issue.
The Nannies take over if the pedal is abused regardless.
Point is, it's a more "refined" predictable throttle mapping with the Vitesse making the car more enjoyable.

In an effort to make a comparison, it's like using a short shifter because it's easier and more enjoyable to use.
Does it change your gearing ?
Does the Vitesse add HP ?
No.
But, controlling the throttle with the Vitesse, or the gears with a Short shifter is more enjoyable and better in some ways.

Reading all the Vitesse reviews, 99% of the users like it and their reviews mimic what we say about the DSC Controller
Those that track their cars with the Vitesse comment on how much "easier" and "predictable" it is to toe/heel on the track.
They have better control getting exactly the amount of throttle they want.
They comment on how much nicer it is having smoother throttle response, especially coming out of a turn.

Nobody's right or wrong here

It's a tool that can be abused, or used correctly.

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Old 08-15-2017, 01:04 PM   #54
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My M3 had a "sport" button that changed the throttle response similar to (I believe) the Vitesse controller. The M3 forums were equally split on the usefulness of the button. Of course 100% was still 100%. Personally, I had it on all the time, mainly because it made my heel-toe downshifts smoother since it was easier to get a quick blip of the throttle.
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Old 08-15-2017, 01:38 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Foosh View Post

GM, like many other manufacturers, puts it in because a lot of folks seem to be fooled into thinking they're somehow getting more performance. They are not.

I completely understand why GM does what they do with the differences in pedal mapping employed in Weather and Economy modes because there are a lot of bad drivers out there, who treat the throttle as an on-off switch. .
I’m glad you have an insight as to what GM is thinking. I don’t have a direct line to Tadge!

These are the facts! Below is the chart from the 2017 Owner’s Manual. Mode setting of Eco and Tour are shown as Normal (read slow repose.) Sport and Track have more aggressive settings. I have more faith in the average Corvette owner then to think they are fooled by anyone!

Fact, Vitesse provides a range of settings from 0= to OEM to 9 = very aggressive. Most posts I read have it set at 5, more linear.

Fact, I was used to Sport throttle setting in my 2014 C7 Z51 (without mag shocks) and now mostly driving in Touring in my Grand Sport (with mag shocks) and have a slower throttle response. All I am using the Vitesse to get closer or equal to OEM Sport or Track, which I was used to for 3 1/2 years sine I drove in Sort mode 95% of the time as it had no affect on ride quality!

Don’t expect this post will be of any interest to you but hopefully will those who wish to understand what the OEM throttle repose changes are and what a Vitesse or similar device that allows control can do! They can look at my post #51 to see what the Pedal to Throttle Opening curves "probably" look like.





From the 2017 Owner's Manual. Set at Touring the Throttle Response is slow. Set at Sport and Track it is more aggressive. Using a Vitesse Throttle Control allows it to be adjusted as you'd like.

Last edited by JerryU; 08-15-2017 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 08-15-2017, 01:48 PM   #56
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Yes, very familiar with the chart. It says nothing that I haven't already said. But once again, it's not "throttle response," per se, it's pedal position. Notice GM calls it "throttle progression".

Frank (Dif) explained it very well. It's just a "feel" thing that some people really like and others can live without. For the umpteenth time, it's not giving you better performance. I drive my car a lot w/ constant switching between Tour, Sport, Track and Track/PTM. I can feel it, but find it pretty insignificant from a performance standpoint.

If you and many others prefer the Vitesse feel, cool. I was simply trying to explain that some seem to think they're getting more performance. They are not.

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Old 08-15-2017, 01:49 PM   #57
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Jerry all you're saying is you like the throttle progression of Sport and have used a 3rd party tool to make it that way in Tour.

This doesn't in any way contradict Foosh's comments. His comments were based on the data, which is that throttle progression is slower in weather and tour than in sport.

throttle progression just means at 50% of the pedal I get X% throttle. In weather this X is lower than tour, in sport and track it is higher than tour.

But 100% is still 100%, If you mash down the pedal, once the throttle body is fully open performance is identical. Some people prefer to modulate with their foot, others prefer the car to do it for them.
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:00 PM   #58
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^^^

Quoting his post #52, "Once you're in Tour and beyond, it makes no real difference." That is NOT correct.

I also don't think most Corvette owners are stupid! But that is just my observation! But then again I "don't know what GM is thinking!"

Also agree with your description as I show in my post #51. The graph shows 100% Pedal = 100% Throttle body opening, regardless of how it's set. It's the path of the curve getting there, but then I am probably to used to looking at graphs.

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Old 08-15-2017, 02:25 PM   #59
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^^^

Quoting his post #52, "Once you're in Tour and beyond, it makes no real difference." That is NOT correct.

I also don't think most Corvette owners are stupid! But that is just my observation! But then again I "don't know what GM is thinking!"

Also agree with your description as I show in my post #51. The graph shows 100% Pedal = 100% Throttle body opening, regardless of how it's set. It's the path of the curve getting there, but then I am probably to used to looking at graphs.
Yes, I mispoke on a minor point by lumping Weather and Economy together. You're correct that Economy is the same as Tour and Weather requires a bigger pedal press, but I stand by what I said that I don't find "Normal", Sport, or Track throttle progression makes much difference except for a slightly different feel. I don't find that "feel" difference either useful or significant, and I don't desire having large amounts of throttle with a short pedal press.

LT1 is 100% correct in saying that I prefer to modulate w/ my foot to produce the desired outcome.

Last edited by Foosh; 08-15-2017 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 08-15-2017, 04:16 PM   #60
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^^^
Understand.
Your car do as you wish.
Have one on me.

Last edited by JerryU; 08-15-2017 at 04:22 PM.
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