Foosh

LOL . . . speaking of know-it-alls, there you are.

See post #34. I've had two engines replaced under warranty, and the process involved considerable manufacturer scrutiny even though all routine, scheduled services were performed at the manufacturer dealerships of the makes involved. One of those was an LS7 in a C6 Z06.

Good luck with your approach if you are unlucky. If you are foolish enough to trust a manufacturer to do the right thing without having records to defend yourself, then I have a bridge to sell you. Your advice is beyond stupid, because record-keeping is very simple even if you want to DIY.

GR Jay

I don't save receipts either because I buy in bulk but what I do is save the top of the filter box and write the date and mileage of the change on it. I have been doing this for 20 years at least.

C6_Racer_X

In the cases I told about, the oil filters were never changed, and there was actual evidence that the oil filters had never been changed. The original filter from the factory was still on the engines in question. Those filters were unavailable in dealerships (unless you bought another car to get the filter off it), and unavailable from "after market" parts sources.

Even with that evidence, the customers/car owners got replacement engines. The customer wasn't involved in the "major fights." Those fights were behind the scenes, between the dealership, the auto maker and the national chains that didn't do the "oil and filter change services" properly, but said they did.
Those forensics are pretty routine for an engine or transmission failure within warranty. They usually include a lab test on the oil or transmission fluid, sometimes a lab test on the coolant, and sometimes some inspections of key parts/areas by representatives from the auto maker (not dealer techs).

Remember, warranties cover defective engines or other defective parts in your car. They don't cover mistakes or defects in stuff you buy from someone else. If you put oil (or coolant, or fuel) in your GM car that either doesn't meet the specifications for the engine or is contaminated or somehow "defective" oil (or fuel, or coolant), that's not GM's fault, and you might face issues with warranty coverage if the physical evidence is that the failure was caused by improper/inadequate oil, fuel or coolant.
If there's no evidence the failure was caused by the oil, you won't need paperwork for oil changes. If the evidence is that the failure was due to improper/"worn out"/defective engine oil, paperwork for oil changes might not help, except to let you know whose fault the failure is.
It's good to keep some records, just in case. But if you actually changed your oil back in July, and you're willing to swear to that in front of an arbitrator or judge, the manufacturer will have to prove you didn't to deny a warranty claim on the basis that you didn't change the oil.
Again, keeping records is good, and recommended. Some people just aren't as good at it as others. I keep a notebook in the glove box of every vehicle we own, and a spreadsheet on the computer as well, and I go so far as to record every gasoline purchase in those logs. I've found exhaust leaks and other minor issues using just the fuel mileage data I get from my fuel purchase/fuel mileage logs.
All true and on point. In my experience, there are always lab tests of the oil before an engine is replaced under warranty. If you've been changing the oil, they know from the lab results. If you've never changed the oil, they know that, too. Receipts and records don't change the physical evidence.

And again, warranties cover defective engines. They don't cover abused or neglected engines.If you kill it, or if your mechanic kills it, that's not necessarily a defect.

redzone

I wasn't going to say anything, but since you asked directly, the answer to your question is yes. I have a good friend who had warranty coverage denied on a blown motor because he couldn't produce proof of oil changes. This was on a VW Jetta about five years ago. I know for a fact he did change the oil as he should because he used the lift in my shop to do the oil changes.

So yes, it is a real concern.

Foosh

Yes, the main point here is that it's foolish to not bother keeping records, given how simple it is, and to simply trust a manufacturer to always do the right thing. Having records of service whether DIY or at non-dealer shops removes all doubt that you'll be covered.

However, I am happy to hear examples above where some people actually got away with it without getting burned.

thill444

Yes you see this from time to time on lots of different forums. VW, Subaru, Ford, etc.

Engines are very expensive. GM is not in the business of giving out new engines unless it was defective, not modified, and was properly maintained. The biggest reasons to get a warranty denial is either modification or lack of maintenance.

I honestly would prefer changing my own oil, but having it done at the dealer protects me from potential warranty denial if something were to go wrong. I don't put a ton of miles on my C7 so it is not like I am constantly getting the oil changed. It is about once a year unless I am on track.

C6_Racer_X

Did your good friend use the correct oil in that engine.

I've seen VW deny claims because someone didn't use the specified viscosity synthetic that meets the required VW specification. That specification varies depending on the year of the vehicle, but VW Spec oil is required for VW engines. Not every bottle at the parts store meets the VW specs, most actually don't. If you use the wrong stuff, it will show up on a lab analysis, and VW will deny the claim.

Also, it's unwise to change the oil as an early step when you're having severe engine problems that might be a defective engine. If you bring it in with absolutely fresh oil and problems, they might make a case that you changed the oil to mask prior neglect.

Pisswilly

Got it!

redzone

VW said it was denied because of the lack of documentation. Full stop. Nothing was said about the oil viscosity.

And when did I say the oil was changed due to engine problems? I can appreciate your line of thinking, but in this case it was nothing more than a lack of documentation.

LT1 Z51

If the failure could be tied to improper oil changing procedures, the answer is it depends.

But for anything in your powertrain which has nothing to do with oil (your transmission for example), the fact you have or do not have receipts is meaningless.

You'd have to have a pretty catastrophic failure, and it would have to look like you abused your engine, in my opinion, to not get coverage.

Basically, if you did the right thing, and there is no evidence that you did otherwise, there is no reason to assume your coverage would be denied.

LT1 Z51

I'd have not gone away quietly, especially if I could prove in any regard that I had my oil changed regularly with the proper stuff (as in you said at your shop).

Did he sue? He should have if he didn't.

corvetteflier

I keep a log of maintenance items on all 4 cars. From a legal perspective, handwritten logs are allowed into evidence in any court proceeding, should it come to that. The burden of proof would in all likelihood be on GM to disprove it. The different ink fading over the years is quite evident on my log, and some of the entries were work done by the Chevy, Honda, Buick dealers or independent service providers for which I have paperwork from them. I seriously doubt it would ever come to that, but if it did, it is solid documentary evidence.

Cedar

I had a former employer that was on a cross country vacation with his wife when his Audi blew up in New Mexico. The Audi dealer that he towed it to asked for proof of service before any extended warranty would be considered. He stated the dealership where he bought the car new has done ALL service work, so the one dealership contacted the other and they had to scan and send all service documentation and not only did they replace his motor, but gave him a free rental so they could continue on their way.

JerryU

Your comment about filters brings up an interesting story and why I only use PF64 AC/Delco filters! All this talk about oil but there is documentation of an engine failure in a C7 caused by a defective filter!

When I had my C6 I made a PDF of how to change oil and filter. As I usually do, it was a Picture/Text with jacking info and pics of the install. One of my Product/Business Managers also had a Vette and saw the PDF. He got me at work and said you used a Fram Filter! Don't you know they caused problems? He is a good friend and although only a EEE (an EE with a Masters) I thought about his comment!

As periodically occurs there were stores about a bad Fram filer that I didn't consider anything but a quality issue with that filter! However for the next oil change bought a Delco and took another pic for the PDF! Been using AC filters ever since!

Some may recall, when one of the car magazines had a C7 engine failure during their road test! It was determined by GM to be caused by a failed filter!

I look at it this way, if a filter causes my engine to fail and it's an AC PF64 I'm safe, bought what was recommended. If it's a Fram, I'm SOL!

(By the way, just installed a Fram in my street rod, it's the only low profile filter that fits under the long tube headers! Has nothing to do with who makes quality filters etc, it's in case of a failure caused by a filter-best be the one GM recommends! In fact there was an interesting recent Thread about the use of the "higher pressure" racing AC filter that fits! Turns out with the variable volume oil pump in the C7 the PF64 filter has a lower min pressure bypass! I'll stick with what it says to use in the Owner's Manual!)

Foosh

It sounds like this was years ago, if they had to call another dealer and have records scanned and sent.

Today, any dealer for any manufacturer can enter the VIN into that manufacturer's maintenance database, GMVIS in our case, and pull up the maintenance record showing oil changes, dates, and mileage, as well as any other repairs or maintenance that were performed at any dealer.

LT1 Z51

Due to Moss-Magnuson (The "Tie-In" Sales Clause) you'd have a strong legal argument if your warranty was denied due to using a non-GM oil filter. GM would have to PROVE your filter was defective and caused the damage.

NSC5

The key with M-M is that the filter, fluid, or whatever part has to meet the specifications laid out by the manufacturer for their product. And yes you can get into trouble with this by using something that you think is "better" than those specs set out by the manufacturer, for example the higher pressure rated oil filter in Jerry's example or even one that has the same bypass PSI rating as the original but with much finer filtering capability that will stay in bypass mode more often.

M-M provides a very useful set of protections for consumers when used wisely but there are too many myths and legends about what it covers and doesn't cover in the land of the internet. Again straight from the FTC "horse's" mouth as I posted earlier in this thread:

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/article...ne-maintenance

LT1 Z51

The reference I used was https://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guide...s/undermag.htm which seems very straight forward

""Tie-In Sales" Provisions
Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.


In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.

While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product. The following is an example of a permissible provision that excludes coverage of such things.


While necessary maintenance or repairs on your AudioMundo Stereo System can be performed by any company, we recommend that you use only authorized AudioMundo dealers. Improper or incorrectly performed maintenance or repair voids this warranty.

Although tie-in sales provisions generally are not allowed, you can include such a provision in your warranty if you can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the FTC that your product will not work properly without a specified item or service. If you believe that this is the case, you should contact the warranty staff of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection for information on how to apply for a waiver of the tie-in sales prohibition."

Vetteman Jack

Even if I buy oil way in advance of a need, I keep the receipts in a binder and then when I do change the oil, the documentation is there - all I have to do is note the date the oil/filter was used and the miles.

mschuyler

Why not? It would be a simple matter to do so. You don't want "some Dufus" changing your oil. GM says: "Some Dufus says he changed his own oil, but can't prove it." You take your chances.