Automotive Bipolarity II
#41
I'm surprised to find I'm not alone!.
Even though I love fast cars, in our DDs I'm always looking for good mileage. And I hate to admit it but I try for good mileage in our performance cars too. I can't help it. I had an allocation for a Raptor at almost MSRP, but when it came in I passed. It was just too much of a piggy - ended up with a Wrangler MT and averaging 19 mpg.
Right now I'm shopping the new Bolt vs a CMax. The Bolt sounds like a car of the future, but I have more of a comfort level with the CMax that's been out several years than the Bolt, which I view as very complicated tech.
Even though I love fast cars, in our DDs I'm always looking for good mileage. And I hate to admit it but I try for good mileage in our performance cars too. I can't help it. I had an allocation for a Raptor at almost MSRP, but when it came in I passed. It was just too much of a piggy - ended up with a Wrangler MT and averaging 19 mpg.
Right now I'm shopping the new Bolt vs a CMax. The Bolt sounds like a car of the future, but I have more of a comfort level with the CMax that's been out several years than the Bolt, which I view as very complicated tech.
#43
Intermediate
Corvette plus winter Camaro. 2010 2SS/RS, 6 speed manual, remarkably good in our snowy Canadian winters! (With snow tires of course)
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Racingswh (10-03-2017)
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7Corvette5 (12-01-2017)
#45
Drifting
Thread Starter
Over the first 300 miles or so the Prius Prime has averaged 65 mpg. We drove out to Middletown and back for dinner the other night - 26 miles round trip - and got a solid 25 miles in pure electric mode, so I figure that trip used like 1.2 oz. of gasoline. The car appears to get 25 miles in pure EV mode, which is slightly better than advertised.
But here's where it gets interesting: I'm reading a Car & Driver road test of the 2017 Prius Prime from the last year or so (whenever the car magazines got the car, maybe a year ago). In the article it says that Electric Vehicle mode wasn't so useful once you got the car out on the highway because once you start going highway speeds the EV range 'plummets' (their words from the article) to 12 miles or so. Hmmmm. So we drive the car to dinner the other night, 26 miles round-trip, I'd say 18 miles are highway. I wasn't driving in a heavy-footed manner, but I wasn't hyper-miling either. On the highway I wasn't driving 55 mph, I was going with the flow of traffic, 60-80 mph (in EV mode the car will go up to 84 mph). And we got an honest 25 miles of pure EV range. Yesterday going to work (90% highway) my wife also experienced 25 miles of EV range before the big battery ran out of juice.
Which does beg the question about Car & Driver's editors: are those idiots capable of driving any car in anything approaching a normal manner? I get the impression they would drive a Tesla and report they got 11 mpg.
But here's where it gets interesting: I'm reading a Car & Driver road test of the 2017 Prius Prime from the last year or so (whenever the car magazines got the car, maybe a year ago). In the article it says that Electric Vehicle mode wasn't so useful once you got the car out on the highway because once you start going highway speeds the EV range 'plummets' (their words from the article) to 12 miles or so. Hmmmm. So we drive the car to dinner the other night, 26 miles round-trip, I'd say 18 miles are highway. I wasn't driving in a heavy-footed manner, but I wasn't hyper-miling either. On the highway I wasn't driving 55 mph, I was going with the flow of traffic, 60-80 mph (in EV mode the car will go up to 84 mph). And we got an honest 25 miles of pure EV range. Yesterday going to work (90% highway) my wife also experienced 25 miles of EV range before the big battery ran out of juice.
Which does beg the question about Car & Driver's editors: are those idiots capable of driving any car in anything approaching a normal manner? I get the impression they would drive a Tesla and report they got 11 mpg.
#47
Drifting
Thread Starter
Anyway, 65 mpg is amazing, the 2011 (now my back-up/winter car) averaged 45 mpg (EPA rated 50 mpg, 44-45 mpg is what Consumer Reports got, that publication's mpg reporting tends to be spot-on). So the Prius Prime is a hybrid on steroids more than an electric car. The plug-in hybrid model is ideal, EV capability, no range limits or worries. If you live in a close in suburb like Bergen, Westchester or Rockland Counties you'd hardly ever use gasoline if you kept the car charged. Here distances are greater (the supermarket is 4 miles away, not 1 mile, it's 48 miles to the GWB, not 15 miles) so it's harder to stay in EV mode all the time, but we still can make it round-trip to the two places where all the shopping is within the range of the car's electric range, and when you do that your overall mpgs go way up.
Increasingly I think future cars will either be electric or if they have internal combustion engines, they will mostly have a plug-in capability. I'd be surprised if there are many straight i.c.e. cars by 2030, my guess is mostly EV and a lot of plug in hybrids.
I wouldn't panic, either way there will be sports cars. A greater threat to the car culture we all love and grew up with are autonomous, self-driving cars. The cover story in Car & Driver this month is headlined: 'Is Driving Dead?'. Good question, eh? You have to wonder if 30-50 years from now human drivers aren't determined too risky vs. self-driving cars to be allowed on the roads.
I have been riding a road bicycle daily for nearly 30 years. The risk of being clipped by a texting or drunk driver is what worries me. Happily I live in a semi-rural area, the traffic load here is half what it was in Bergen County (closer-in suburb to NY, the G.Washington Bridge NJ end is Bergen County). I myself think I will be MUCH safer on my bicycle with autonomous cars passing me than with texting teens and drunken adults behind the wheel. I've read articles where it's projected that autonomous cars would reduce the accident rate so much it would negatively impact body shops and car part sales (far fewer accidents).
But I do think all those larger issues (like autonomous cars displacing traditional cars) are 20+ years off, I'm nearly 60, so I'll get to drive my Corvettes into the long good night, and that's fine with me.
Nice. I actually like the styling of the first generation Chevy Volt more than the newer one that I drove this past summer.
Unpossible.
There are two things you should never believe: ***** size claims and anecdotal mpg claims. 'My car gets 47 mpg'. Right. On the highway. Once in a while with a tailwind. A Prius gets 45 mpg (the last generation) or 50+ mpg (the newer version) day after day, in all kinds of driving, in fact the cars get higher mpgs in urban driving. People are utterly clueless on this, 95% of them have no friggin idea what their cars really get when it comes to fuel economy, they'll see some higher mpg number on car's dash display one time, and THAT becomes the number the use to tell everybody for the next 5 years even though it doesn't really represent the car's actual fuel efficiency.
The reason Toyota is giving them away is gas is historically as cheap as it has ever been in the USA. The average price for 87 fuel today is about $2.85 in the U.S., if you adjust that for inflation back to when I was in high school (I graduated in 1975) that's 63 cents per gallon, the national average in 1975 was 50 cents. If the price of 87 jumps to $3.50 to $4.00 per gallon then suddenly the Prius gets hot and it's hard to find one in stock. Truck and SUV sales are booming now, they'll cool off if gas prices spike. Same as it ever was in the USA.
Another factor is the car is so face-palm ugly. Good grief, you'd think they'd try to make it better, but they made it worse. That has to kill sales, I don't think people even consider the car for that reason. Which is a shame because I have to say in many respects these are the best cars I've ever owned. Astonishingly reliable, fuel efficient, cheap to own, comfortable, safe, etc. etc Prius owners are about the most satisfied with their cars of all car owners, and among the most loyal, and it has less to do with tree-hugging than people appreciating a car that's so easy to own and so hard to kill. And the 2017 is a huge improvement in most respects from our 2011, which was a great car too.
All that being said, I mostly drive a Corvette.
Consider: Toyota has built the Prius name into a very valuable automotive brand, and how? With cool styling, performance, etc.? Hardly. The brand value is because they have sold over NINE MILLION cars bearing that name plate globally over the past 15+ years and the car has an well established reputation for amazing efficiency, reliability and customer loyalty.
So people can **** on the Prius all they want, it's here to stay and Toyota is expanding the Prius line-up of vehicles, I even heard rumors of the company considering splitting it off into its own automotive nameplate (like Lexus).
Oh yeah, that comment above about Lexus owners just driving re-badged Toyotas is about as ignorant as it can possibly get. Also 1991 called, they want their auto trash talk back.
Increasingly I think future cars will either be electric or if they have internal combustion engines, they will mostly have a plug-in capability. I'd be surprised if there are many straight i.c.e. cars by 2030, my guess is mostly EV and a lot of plug in hybrids.
I wouldn't panic, either way there will be sports cars. A greater threat to the car culture we all love and grew up with are autonomous, self-driving cars. The cover story in Car & Driver this month is headlined: 'Is Driving Dead?'. Good question, eh? You have to wonder if 30-50 years from now human drivers aren't determined too risky vs. self-driving cars to be allowed on the roads.
I have been riding a road bicycle daily for nearly 30 years. The risk of being clipped by a texting or drunk driver is what worries me. Happily I live in a semi-rural area, the traffic load here is half what it was in Bergen County (closer-in suburb to NY, the G.Washington Bridge NJ end is Bergen County). I myself think I will be MUCH safer on my bicycle with autonomous cars passing me than with texting teens and drunken adults behind the wheel. I've read articles where it's projected that autonomous cars would reduce the accident rate so much it would negatively impact body shops and car part sales (far fewer accidents).
But I do think all those larger issues (like autonomous cars displacing traditional cars) are 20+ years off, I'm nearly 60, so I'll get to drive my Corvettes into the long good night, and that's fine with me.
Nice. I actually like the styling of the first generation Chevy Volt more than the newer one that I drove this past summer.
There are two things you should never believe: ***** size claims and anecdotal mpg claims. 'My car gets 47 mpg'. Right. On the highway. Once in a while with a tailwind. A Prius gets 45 mpg (the last generation) or 50+ mpg (the newer version) day after day, in all kinds of driving, in fact the cars get higher mpgs in urban driving. People are utterly clueless on this, 95% of them have no friggin idea what their cars really get when it comes to fuel economy, they'll see some higher mpg number on car's dash display one time, and THAT becomes the number the use to tell everybody for the next 5 years even though it doesn't really represent the car's actual fuel efficiency.
The reason Toyota is giving them away is gas is historically as cheap as it has ever been in the USA. The average price for 87 fuel today is about $2.85 in the U.S., if you adjust that for inflation back to when I was in high school (I graduated in 1975) that's 63 cents per gallon, the national average in 1975 was 50 cents. If the price of 87 jumps to $3.50 to $4.00 per gallon then suddenly the Prius gets hot and it's hard to find one in stock. Truck and SUV sales are booming now, they'll cool off if gas prices spike. Same as it ever was in the USA.
Another factor is the car is so face-palm ugly. Good grief, you'd think they'd try to make it better, but they made it worse. That has to kill sales, I don't think people even consider the car for that reason. Which is a shame because I have to say in many respects these are the best cars I've ever owned. Astonishingly reliable, fuel efficient, cheap to own, comfortable, safe, etc. etc Prius owners are about the most satisfied with their cars of all car owners, and among the most loyal, and it has less to do with tree-hugging than people appreciating a car that's so easy to own and so hard to kill. And the 2017 is a huge improvement in most respects from our 2011, which was a great car too.
All that being said, I mostly drive a Corvette.
Consider: Toyota has built the Prius name into a very valuable automotive brand, and how? With cool styling, performance, etc.? Hardly. The brand value is because they have sold over NINE MILLION cars bearing that name plate globally over the past 15+ years and the car has an well established reputation for amazing efficiency, reliability and customer loyalty.
So people can **** on the Prius all they want, it's here to stay and Toyota is expanding the Prius line-up of vehicles, I even heard rumors of the company considering splitting it off into its own automotive nameplate (like Lexus).
Oh yeah, that comment above about Lexus owners just driving re-badged Toyotas is about as ignorant as it can possibly get. Also 1991 called, they want their auto trash talk back.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 10-09-2017 at 10:17 PM. Reason: Merged Posts-Please use the Multi-Quote button (the middle icon) in the lower right hand corner to make your responses look like this!
#49
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
Location: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
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Bill
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joemosfet (10-19-2017)
#52
Melting Slicks
Same can be said about Volt owners. I have met a bunch at various cruise ins that are in love with their vehicles. One reason why I suggested my daughter buy a used 2014 for my grand daughter after she got her DL. My grand daughter loves the car, she uses it to drive in the Palos Verdes Peninsula area near LA and with the charger in the garage she hasn't had to use any gas in the car except as mandated by GM to make sure the gas gets used Vs sit in the tank. The car definitely looks better than any Prius I have ever seen and it is well appointed in the manner a young person wants nowadays.
Bill
Bill
#54
Drifting
Thread Starter
Same can be said about Volt owners. I have met a bunch at various cruise ins that are in love with their vehicles. One reason why I suggested my daughter buy a used 2014 for my grand daughter after she got her DL. My grand daughter loves the car, she uses it to drive in the Palos Verdes Peninsula area near LA and with the charger in the garage she hasn't had to use any gas in the car except as mandated by GM to make sure the gas gets used Vs sit in the tank. The car definitely looks better than any Prius I have ever seen and it is well appointed in the manner a young person wants nowadays.
Bill
Bill
I'll be amazed if 10 years from now most cars aren't electric and/or plug-in hybrid like the Volt and Prius Prime. The good news is I think that's going to CRUSH oil prices and make it easier to drive a car like the Corvette. Except I think Corvettes will be plug-in hybrids by the time the C9 rolls around too : ).
#55
Race Director
Member Since: Mar 2001
Location: Bonneville Salt Flats, 223mph Aug. '04
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Just noticed this thread... perhaps this will qualify.
My 1966 Excalibur SSK (still with its original Corvette 300hp/327 engine from the factory), and my still quite new 2018 C7 (still with its orginal Corvette engine, too--hehehe)!
My 1966 Excalibur SSK (still with its original Corvette 300hp/327 engine from the factory), and my still quite new 2018 C7 (still with its orginal Corvette engine, too--hehehe)!
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sunsalem (10-19-2017)
#57
Advanced
A dissenting opinion
I really was disappointed in the quality of the Volt I drove for a couple of days. And I am well aware of how much Volt owners LOVE their cars. On paper it's the best plug-in on the market. Oh well. We're loving this new Prius Prime, it's just amazing. The car just oozes friggin quality and it's kind of like they took the Prius and sent it to Lexus finishing school, it's SO much nicer than the old Prius. And over 550 miles the car is averaging over 75 mpg. The EV range is as advertised and then some, we got 27 miles last night. And when it kicks over to hybrid mode the car averages 53 mpg or so in the real world (reports I'm getting back from the new Volt are 40-42 mpg in hybrid mode). I think it's kind of a wash for where we live with the distances we drive. The longer distances you drive the more suited the Prius Prime is, the shorter the more the Volt would work more efficiently. I'm just amazed @ how much that relatively short electric range boosts the overall mpgs. I guess if the car stays home for a week (my wife alternates cars on her longer commute) and just just shorter trips within the EV range of the car the overall mpgs start going up. .
Last edited by frednino; 10-20-2017 at 03:22 AM.
#58
Another Vette-Volt owner here. Our 2012 Volt has been a fabulous vehicle, and we were early adopters to support American engineering and workforce.