GM suspension tune upgrade
11-30-2017, 07:49 PM
#201
Instructor
so you're saying the car has sensors in it that the GM controller doesn't make use of but the DSC controller does?
would you care to mention which sensors those might be?
by "velocity" do you mean how fast the car is going?
that's proprietary?
curious minds want to know
would you care to mention which sensors those might be?
by "velocity" do you mean how fast the car is going?
that's proprietary?
curious minds want to know
Last edited by drobbins; 11-30-2017 at 08:05 PM.
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buckeye4 (11-30-2017)
11-30-2017, 08:27 PM
#202
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I would think either would be acceptable based on the verbiage but also think it would depend on the dealership. I would “suspect” most service departments would prefer the car be picked up immediately instead of taking up shop space overnight.
This time of year, I would prefer to leave it at the dealership overnight as long as it’s indoors since my servicing dealership is pretty close. For some, that may not be as convenient.
All good questions to think through/discuss but sort of moot until the actual recalibrations are available and more info is available.
This time of year, I would prefer to leave it at the dealership overnight as long as it’s indoors since my servicing dealership is pretty close. For some, that may not be as convenient.
All good questions to think through/discuss but sort of moot until the actual recalibrations are available and more info is available.
11-30-2017, 10:08 PM
#204
I had the update performed on my '15 Z51 at Buff Whelen Chev in Sterling Heights MI this afternoon and the improvement in ride and steering is tremendous.
Fortunately, we some good weather today and I could try it out. The improvement was noticeable leaving the service area on the way to the main road. On the highway, where the seams were very noticeable, the ride was smooth and firm. Like a few others have stated, "it is like I have a new car".
The tech spoke to Chev Performance last week when I made the appointment and he was told it was not necessary to leave the car at the dealership for the referenced 8-10 hour period. The fluid will normalize just fine in my garage. He was told "just don't have him go to the track until after the normalization period."
I definitely recommend it!
Jim
Fortunately, we some good weather today and I could try it out. The improvement was noticeable leaving the service area on the way to the main road. On the highway, where the seams were very noticeable, the ride was smooth and firm. Like a few others have stated, "it is like I have a new car".
The tech spoke to Chev Performance last week when I made the appointment and he was told it was not necessary to leave the car at the dealership for the referenced 8-10 hour period. The fluid will normalize just fine in my garage. He was told "just don't have him go to the track until after the normalization period."
I definitely recommend it!
Jim
Last edited by javenius; 11-30-2017 at 10:08 PM.
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blkvet6 (12-03-2017)
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blkvet6 (12-03-2017)
11-30-2017, 10:30 PM
#208
Corvette Racing may be a different story.
But the difference between the GM Controller and DSC Controller, has nothing to do with calibration files.
It's about the DSC "Controller" capabilities and what it does with the calibration files.
The DSC Controller is Predictive and calculates response ahead of what the shock will do.
While the GM Controller is Reactive, responding to what the shock is already doing.
GM would have to re-design their Controller to get the same results as the DSC Controller.
It's well known the GM Controller does not use anywhere near the number of sensors in the car as the DSC Controller uses.
And the DSC use of Velocity is an Industry first, and proprietary technology.
But the difference between the GM Controller and DSC Controller, has nothing to do with calibration files.
It's about the DSC "Controller" capabilities and what it does with the calibration files.
The DSC Controller is Predictive and calculates response ahead of what the shock will do.
While the GM Controller is Reactive, responding to what the shock is already doing.
GM would have to re-design their Controller to get the same results as the DSC Controller.
It's well known the GM Controller does not use anywhere near the number of sensors in the car as the DSC Controller uses.
And the DSC use of Velocity is an Industry first, and proprietary technology.
I don't believe DSC broadcasts damper system diagnostics. I suspect a driver would like to be informed of a shock with no damping before he enters a corner.
DSC does not have the body algorithms the OE controller does.
Heave, Pitch, Roll, all tuned using damper velocity calculated to the wheel, and scaled by vehicle speed.
The OEM wheel algorithms are also tuned using damper velocity calculated to the wheel and scaled by vehicle speed
Lift, dive, squat, and anti squat are parameters tune-able in the OEM controller. As is transient pitch/lift/dive.
There are handling algorithms not found in the DSC software.
Transient Roll is calibrated using damper velocities calculated to the wheel, tune-able by steering wheel angle acceleration, lateral acceleration, and also scaled by vehicle speed.
Steady State Roll is also calibrated using damper velocities calculated to the wheel tune-able by lateral acceleration and scaled by vehicle speed.
The OEM controller also has closed loop yaw control.
And as I stated before DSC does not have actual damper fluid temperature compensation, voltage compensation, or tune-able vehicle speed overrides.
The OEM controller also has axle control parameters and electronic bump stops.
There are many more, but this is what I can remember.
Also Corvette Racing does not use MRC. I believe it is not allowed in the series.
11-30-2017, 11:36 PM
#210
Incorrect, I assume another DSC claim. Communication on the BUS to and from the OE controller supersedes the DSC controller. As I stated before the DSC controller does not broadcast wheel positions to other controllers which are looking for that information and thus not performaing as they should.
I don't believe DSC broadcasts damper system diagnostics. I suspect a driver would like to be informed of a shock with no damping before he enters a corner.
DSC does not have the body algorithms the OE controller does.
Heave, Pitch, Roll, all tuned using damper velocity calculated to the wheel, and scaled by vehicle speed.
The OEM wheel algorithms are also tuned using damper velocity calculated to the wheel and scaled by vehicle speed
Lift, dive, squat, and anti squat are parameters tune-able in the OEM controller. As is transient pitch/lift/dive.
There are handling algorithms not found in the DSC software.
Transient Roll is calibrated using damper velocities calculated to the wheel, tune-able by steering wheel angle acceleration, lateral acceleration, and also scaled by vehicle speed.
Steady State Roll is also calibrated using damper velocities calculated to the wheel tune-able by lateral acceleration and scaled by vehicle speed.
The OEM controller also has closed loop yaw control.
And as I stated before DSC does not have actual damper fluid temperature compensation, voltage compensation, or tune-able vehicle speed overrides.
The OEM controller also has axle control parameters and electronic bump stops.
There are many more, but this is what I can remember.
Also Corvette Racing does not use MRC. I believe it is not allowed in the series.
I don't believe DSC broadcasts damper system diagnostics. I suspect a driver would like to be informed of a shock with no damping before he enters a corner.
DSC does not have the body algorithms the OE controller does.
Heave, Pitch, Roll, all tuned using damper velocity calculated to the wheel, and scaled by vehicle speed.
The OEM wheel algorithms are also tuned using damper velocity calculated to the wheel and scaled by vehicle speed
Lift, dive, squat, and anti squat are parameters tune-able in the OEM controller. As is transient pitch/lift/dive.
There are handling algorithms not found in the DSC software.
Transient Roll is calibrated using damper velocities calculated to the wheel, tune-able by steering wheel angle acceleration, lateral acceleration, and also scaled by vehicle speed.
Steady State Roll is also calibrated using damper velocities calculated to the wheel tune-able by lateral acceleration and scaled by vehicle speed.
The OEM controller also has closed loop yaw control.
And as I stated before DSC does not have actual damper fluid temperature compensation, voltage compensation, or tune-able vehicle speed overrides.
The OEM controller also has axle control parameters and electronic bump stops.
There are many more, but this is what I can remember.
Also Corvette Racing does not use MRC. I believe it is not allowed in the series.
If it is true that all that capability you describe exists in the OEM controller, it seems that GM left a lot on the table, and/or that capability isn't being taken advantage of, and/or it doesn't provide any tangible benefits. I have a lot of seat time in both, have driven the car very aggressively with both, and the original OEM calibration is just plain crude in comparison. The DSC is both far more confidence inspiring at the limits and far more comfortable in all modes, including Track and Track PTM.
Have you actually driven C7s with both MSRC controllers in order to really compare in the real world? I respect your apparent expertise since it sounds as if you are former GM engineer with knowledge in this area, but real world results sometimes aren't consistent w/ engineering theory.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-01-2017 at 01:17 AM.
12-01-2017, 01:55 AM
#211
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I'll add my full quote to fill in what you left out 
Wow, that's a load of good stuff and you make a good Debate on the subject
You must know something none of us do about the GM setup.
I don't know why my 2016 Z51 w/ OEM MSRC setup performed rather poorly compared to the DSC controller installed in my car now
I'm only relying on my experience mentioned in my post #142.
Thanks, I wasn't fully aware Corvette racing does Not use MSRC
Lastly I'm afraid us DSC fans may have hijacked the thread a bit and I'm sure many will be Happy with the GM update 
I have no doubt the new GM MSRC calibration files improve ride and handling.
I'm not here to trash GM and hope anyone getting the update is happy with the results
GM left a lot on the table with their original calibrations files.
Probably because GM farms out their Controller work and calibration files.
Corvette Racing may be a different story.
But the difference between the GM Controller and DSC Controller, has nothing to do with calibration files.
It's about the DSC "Controller" capabilities and what it does with the calibration files.
The DSC Controller is Predictive and calculates response ahead of what the shock will do.
While the GM Controller is Reactive, responding to what the shock is already doing.
GM would have to re-design their Controller to get the same results as the DSC Controller.
It's well known the GM Controller does not use anywhere near the number of sensors in the car as the DSC Controller uses.
And the DSC use of Velocity is an Industry first, and proprietary technology.
I've experienced the same "change" in Ride and Handling between the GM controller and DSC controller after the shocks warm up.
GM's Controller does nothing different with shock temperatures.
Both controllers wake up when the car starts.
IMO it's not a coincidence GM is offering the update now after DSC has taken Mag Ride Technology to a new level.
YMMV and glad you're happy with your GM update
I'm not here to trash GM and hope anyone getting the update is happy with the results
GM left a lot on the table with their original calibrations files.
Probably because GM farms out their Controller work and calibration files.
Corvette Racing may be a different story.
But the difference between the GM Controller and DSC Controller, has nothing to do with calibration files.
It's about the DSC "Controller" capabilities and what it does with the calibration files.
The DSC Controller is Predictive and calculates response ahead of what the shock will do.
While the GM Controller is Reactive, responding to what the shock is already doing.
GM would have to re-design their Controller to get the same results as the DSC Controller.
It's well known the GM Controller does not use anywhere near the number of sensors in the car as the DSC Controller uses.
And the DSC use of Velocity is an Industry first, and proprietary technology.
I've experienced the same "change" in Ride and Handling between the GM controller and DSC controller after the shocks warm up.
GM's Controller does nothing different with shock temperatures.
Both controllers wake up when the car starts.
IMO it's not a coincidence GM is offering the update now after DSC has taken Mag Ride Technology to a new level.
YMMV and glad you're happy with your GM update
Incorrect, I assume another DSC claim. Communication on the BUS to and from the OE controller supersedes the DSC controller. As I stated before the DSC controller does not broadcast wheel positions to other controllers which are looking for that information and thus not performaing as they should.
I don't believe DSC broadcasts damper system diagnostics. I suspect a driver would like to be informed of a shock with no damping before he enters a corner.
DSC does not have the body algorithms the OE controller does.
Heave, Pitch, Roll, all tuned using damper velocity calculated to the wheel, and scaled by vehicle speed.
The OEM wheel algorithms are also tuned using damper velocity calculated to the wheel and scaled by vehicle speed
Lift, dive, squat, and anti squat are parameters tune-able in the OEM controller. As is transient pitch/lift/dive.
There are handling algorithms not found in the DSC software.
Transient Roll is calibrated using damper velocities calculated to the wheel, tune-able by steering wheel angle acceleration, lateral acceleration, and also scaled by vehicle speed.
Steady State Roll is also calibrated using damper velocities calculated to the wheel tune-able by lateral acceleration and scaled by vehicle speed.
The OEM controller also has closed loop yaw control.
And as I stated before DSC does not have actual damper fluid temperature compensation, voltage compensation, or tune-able vehicle speed overrides.
The OEM controller also has axle control parameters and electronic bump stops.
There are many more, but this is what I can remember.
Also Corvette Racing does not use MRC. I believe it is not allowed in the series.
I don't believe DSC broadcasts damper system diagnostics. I suspect a driver would like to be informed of a shock with no damping before he enters a corner.
DSC does not have the body algorithms the OE controller does.
Heave, Pitch, Roll, all tuned using damper velocity calculated to the wheel, and scaled by vehicle speed.
The OEM wheel algorithms are also tuned using damper velocity calculated to the wheel and scaled by vehicle speed
Lift, dive, squat, and anti squat are parameters tune-able in the OEM controller. As is transient pitch/lift/dive.
There are handling algorithms not found in the DSC software.
Transient Roll is calibrated using damper velocities calculated to the wheel, tune-able by steering wheel angle acceleration, lateral acceleration, and also scaled by vehicle speed.
Steady State Roll is also calibrated using damper velocities calculated to the wheel tune-able by lateral acceleration and scaled by vehicle speed.
The OEM controller also has closed loop yaw control.
And as I stated before DSC does not have actual damper fluid temperature compensation, voltage compensation, or tune-able vehicle speed overrides.
The OEM controller also has axle control parameters and electronic bump stops.
There are many more, but this is what I can remember.
Also Corvette Racing does not use MRC. I believe it is not allowed in the series.
You must know something none of us do about the GM setup.
I don't know why my 2016 Z51 w/ OEM MSRC setup performed rather poorly compared to the DSC controller installed in my car now
I'm only relying on my experience mentioned in my post #142.
Thanks, I wasn't fully aware Corvette racing does Not use MSRC
Lastly I'm afraid us DSC fans may have hijacked the thread a bit and I'm sure many will be Happy with the GM update
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blkvet6 (12-03-2017)
12-01-2017, 05:27 AM
#212
And yet, there are literally hundreds of customers who have compared both OEM to DSC, vastly prefer the latter on both street and track, have gotten better results in both venues, and consider the DSC a dramatic improvement over OEM. I can't comment on the latest GM calibration having not tested it, but I will soon. It is interesting, given the overwhelming success of the DSC device, that GM is now hyping a "revolutionary" new calibration.
If it is true that all that capability you describe exists in the OEM controller, it seems that GM left a lot on the table, and/or that capability isn't being taken advantage of, and/or it doesn't provide any tangible benefits. I have a lot of seat time in both, have driven the car very aggressively with both, and the original OEM calibration is just plain crude in comparison. The DSC is both far more confidence inspiring at the limits and far more comfortable in all modes, including Track and Track PTM.
Have you actually driven C7s with both MSRC controllers in order to really compare in the real world? I respect your apparent expertise since it sounds as if you are former GM engineer with knowledge in this area, but real world results sometimes aren't consistent w/ engineering theory.
If it is true that all that capability you describe exists in the OEM controller, it seems that GM left a lot on the table, and/or that capability isn't being taken advantage of, and/or it doesn't provide any tangible benefits. I have a lot of seat time in both, have driven the car very aggressively with both, and the original OEM calibration is just plain crude in comparison. The DSC is both far more confidence inspiring at the limits and far more comfortable in all modes, including Track and Track PTM.
Have you actually driven C7s with both MSRC controllers in order to really compare in the real world? I respect your apparent expertise since it sounds as if you are former GM engineer with knowledge in this area, but real world results sometimes aren't consistent w/ engineering theory.
I suspect my time behind the wheel of Corvettes can’t come close to yours.
I don’t believe I ever offered an opinion on the drive quality of either controller, simply because I can’t as I’ve never driven a car with a DCS controller in it. I was simply offering my opinion on the capabilities of each platform.
I am troubled by DSC’s claims that GM does not use damper velocity as a tuning parameter which is completely false; almost every parameter is tuned using damper velocity.
Also I've noticed in other threads that DSC does not report out diagnostics, this would also be a concern to me.
The first time I was showed DSC’s suggestion for a tour mode calibration it was basically all zeros, no current which is why I suggested that DSC does not spend much time working the tour or sport modes.
Because of the new calibration being offered, and the reviews being posted about the ride quality in tour and sport, I am currently considering purchasing a 2014 or 2015 Corvette. I would like to read more opinions of the new calibrations before I take a significant lump out of my fixed income.
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blkvet6 (12-03-2017)
12-01-2017, 05:48 AM
#213
I'll add my full quote to fill in what you left out
Wow, that's a load of good stuff and you make a good Debate on the subject
You must know something none of us do about the GM setup.
I don't know why my 2016 Z51 w/ OEM MSRC setup performed rather poorly compared to the DSC controller installed in my car now
I'm only relying on my experience mentioned in my post #142.
Thanks, I wasn't fully aware Corvette racing does Not use MSRC
Lastly I'm afraid us DSC fans may have hijacked the thread a bit and I'm sure many will be Happy with the GM update
Wow, that's a load of good stuff and you make a good Debate on the subject
You must know something none of us do about the GM setup.
I don't know why my 2016 Z51 w/ OEM MSRC setup performed rather poorly compared to the DSC controller installed in my car now
I'm only relying on my experience mentioned in my post #142.
Thanks, I wasn't fully aware Corvette racing does Not use MSRC
Lastly I'm afraid us DSC fans may have hijacked the thread a bit and I'm sure many will be Happy with the GM update
I agree with you, most of the 2014 and 2015 cars I have driven offered a harsher ride than I would prefer. If you are happy with your 2016 now, then nothing else really matters. It's all good.
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blkvet6 (12-03-2017)
12-01-2017, 09:06 AM
#214
one big advantage over dsc at least for me it is free it was billed as a warranty claim code program-38FD3.
12-01-2017, 09:32 AM
#215
Melting Slicks
Sounds like the GM is using more data, and feed it back.
the DSC is maxing out the limits so the different modes are more noticeable. tour is super soft, ect... not hating on either. DCS sounds like a soild product to change the factory stuff if you want to or need to tune it.
and maybe GM said ok people like bigger differences,, lets change it some. who knows.
the DSC is maxing out the limits so the different modes are more noticeable. tour is super soft, ect... not hating on either. DCS sounds like a soild product to change the factory stuff if you want to or need to tune it.
and maybe GM said ok people like bigger differences,, lets change it some. who knows.
12-01-2017, 10:13 AM
#216
I don't think you can draw that conclusion. Some of what is written above directly contradicts what DSC has published, and the author admits to some degree of speculation because he has not made a direct comparison. And just because those parameters exist within the OEM controller does not mean that they are actually utilized in the OEM the algorithms in a meaningful way.
It also does not appear that he has seen current DSC recommended calibrations from 8/28/17. Moreover, since the software is available to all DSC customers, and they can make their own changes easily, it's not clear what calibrations he is looking at. Contrast that w/ the OEM system, which is closed and customers are at the mercy of what GM decides to give them, and how much they want to charge for it.
Contrary to what was said above, the DSC Tour algorithm is most certainly not "all zeros", AKA no current applied to the dampers. DSC Tour is NOT "super soft." It is noticeably less harsh than the OEM calibration. That means it's soft when it should be and firm when it needs to be. I know and use it all the time in my daily commute. Even in DSC Tour mode, when pulling significant G's, the car stiffens up and corners flat and true.
If the poster above was looking at a DSC Tour file with all zeros, he was probably looking at the empty software w/ no file.
One last note before I leave this alone on this thread, DSC owner and inventor, Mike Levitas, is a world-class, professional race driver (former winner at Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona). He's also a C7 Z06 owner, who is constantly testing both street and track calibrations on his own car. He is very familiar with what the OEM system does, and quite confident that his algorithms produce a much better handling car based upon his considerable experience in such matters.
Having said that, Mike has always said he prefers a softer overall suspension because it produces better results on the track and better chassis stability, especially when it instantly stiffens the appropriate dampers as conditions require. That also makes the car much more comfortable on the street, without compromising it's handling prowess.
It also does not appear that he has seen current DSC recommended calibrations from 8/28/17. Moreover, since the software is available to all DSC customers, and they can make their own changes easily, it's not clear what calibrations he is looking at. Contrast that w/ the OEM system, which is closed and customers are at the mercy of what GM decides to give them, and how much they want to charge for it.
Contrary to what was said above, the DSC Tour algorithm is most certainly not "all zeros", AKA no current applied to the dampers. DSC Tour is NOT "super soft." It is noticeably less harsh than the OEM calibration. That means it's soft when it should be and firm when it needs to be. I know and use it all the time in my daily commute. Even in DSC Tour mode, when pulling significant G's, the car stiffens up and corners flat and true.
If the poster above was looking at a DSC Tour file with all zeros, he was probably looking at the empty software w/ no file.
One last note before I leave this alone on this thread, DSC owner and inventor, Mike Levitas, is a world-class, professional race driver (former winner at Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona). He's also a C7 Z06 owner, who is constantly testing both street and track calibrations on his own car. He is very familiar with what the OEM system does, and quite confident that his algorithms produce a much better handling car based upon his considerable experience in such matters.
Having said that, Mike has always said he prefers a softer overall suspension because it produces better results on the track and better chassis stability, especially when it instantly stiffens the appropriate dampers as conditions require. That also makes the car much more comfortable on the street, without compromising it's handling prowess.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-01-2017 at 11:45 AM.
12-01-2017, 10:30 AM
#217
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so you're saying the car has sensors in it that the GM controller doesn't make use of but the DSC controller does?
would you care to mention which sensors those might be?
by "velocity" do you mean how fast the car is going?
that's proprietary?
curious minds want to know
would you care to mention which sensors those might be?
by "velocity" do you mean how fast the car is going?
that's proprietary?
curious minds want to know
It's a Looong read, but here's all the info for what it's worth.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ervations.html
Over and Out
12-01-2017, 10:34 AM
#218
Burning Brakes
I think the biggest reason to get the DSC controller is because its infinitely adjustable regardless of what setup you have. Whereas the GM Calibration is specific to OEM parameters be it shock damping and tire diameters. Essentially everything needs to talk to each other.
12-01-2017, 11:51 AM
#219
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Essentially everything needs to talk to each other.
Elmer
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pdiddy972 (12-05-2017)
12-01-2017, 12:01 PM
#220
LOL . . . I would hope that would depend upon the quality of the chat.