A8 v 7 speed manual
05-15-2018, 01:48 PM
#141
Le Mans Master
BTW, 396, I'm with you as far as the "experience" of an A8/M7 goes. What we like is what is right for us. From that perspective both are fine for their owners.
Have a good one,
Mike
05-15-2018, 01:52 PM
#142
Burning Brakes
I have never had my m7 give me the wrong gear or deny me a shift while flogging it on track. Farah is twice the driver i am and couldn't keep it in the correct gear.
05-15-2018, 03:21 PM
#143
Race Director
Member Since: Jul 2007
Location: Texas Hill Country
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be involved in all the things you do in your life, otherwise you are just a passenger.
05-16-2018, 03:00 AM
#146
Melting Slicks
One thing I like about the M7 is the no lift shift feature. It reminds me of the old muscle car days with the 4 speed transmissions and while racing trying to execute the speed shift.
In the Corvette I really like testing my skills by taking it to red line using the no lift shift jabbing the clutch, grabbing the next gear, then pedaling the gas as it wiggles a bit and bam hitting the next gear. Hard to put into words but it is really a different experience than what I got when testing the A8.
Not saying it is better just offers for me a stronger test of my driving skills.
In the Corvette I really like testing my skills by taking it to red line using the no lift shift jabbing the clutch, grabbing the next gear, then pedaling the gas as it wiggles a bit and bam hitting the next gear. Hard to put into words but it is really a different experience than what I got when testing the A8.
Not saying it is better just offers for me a stronger test of my driving skills.
So, for example to run a M7 down the quarter mile, there will difference in ET and Trap speed depending on the skill of the drive at shifting even if they cut the exact same reaction time.
A8 three competent driver should have the same time and mph if they have the same reaction time off the line.
Yes, the A8 will beat the M7 in the said quarter. It takes lots of practice to run a M7 quick and consistent in the Quarter. That is some of the driver interaction that is not in a A8 to me.
Okay, let me try. Did you watch Farah drive the zr1? Did you see it hit the rev limiter and bog when he pulled the paddle late? Then it upshifts itself to third and he pulled the paddle a hair late and it was in 4th. There were at least 4, maybe more, times when he was not in the gear he wanted. This would drive me absolutely crazy on track. I want control, not the car.
The argument would be feasible if the A8 auto weren't so bad. Compared to the AMG gts and 991.1 gt3 I drove on track, the zo6 a8 box I drove on track was a joke.
The argument would be feasible if the A8 auto weren't so bad. Compared to the AMG gts and 991.1 gt3 I drove on track, the zo6 a8 box I drove on track was a joke.
I like the manual, because if the car is in the wrong gear, its 100% my fault. I like the timing of mashing the clutch and yanking the gear quick. When done perfect, its a great feeling that I do not get from pulling a paddle.
05-16-2018, 03:11 AM
#147
Racer
Big assumption there, I agree with the poster and he may own both like me. Some people are not limited to one sports car. I have built many.
I will admit that through the 90's the faster car was generally a stick shift car. It still doesn't mean that some guy with a automatic Corvette for example would not have a sports car. Ridiculous....
Sports Car can be a auto or stick shift. Weather it has a manual transmission or a auto transmission it is the way it is set up and how it performs. Even what type of road you are on or your mood.
Now if you are talking race car 99.9% of those are either DCT or some form of auto.
Using your logic and many a Ferrari or Lambo would not be a true sports cars.
I will admit that through the 90's the faster car was generally a stick shift car. It still doesn't mean that some guy with a automatic Corvette for example would not have a sports car. Ridiculous....
Sports Car can be a auto or stick shift. Weather it has a manual transmission or a auto transmission it is the way it is set up and how it performs. Even what type of road you are on or your mood.
Now if you are talking race car 99.9% of those are either DCT or some form of auto.
Using your logic and many a Ferrari or Lambo would not be a true sports cars.
05-16-2018, 03:33 AM
#148
Racer
If you want to go to manual mode all you have to do is punch it and pull the shift lever into M while your car has dropped a couple or three gears whatever the computer decides is the best gear to get away in. Then just go with whatever you feel you want: quick early upshifts or, long wind outs with explosive shifts that sound like a cannon has gone off under your butt. Keep the speed climbing to triple digits until the corner etc. pull that left shifter car blimps thottle and downshifts even quicker than the upshifts. If you have never done a wide open shift or ultimate downshift in a A6 or A8 you would never know.
I love to heal toe a stick shift and am good at it but, got to admit the auto stops any compression skids going into to corners. Non issue at racing speeds.
I am NOT say a Auto is better. I am just saying that C7 Auto has some pretty impressive voodoo going on.
Ask me which one I would take to the track..... Auto hands down....
Why ... because I want to win and the auto allow me to focus on other tasks and winning is fun !!!!
05-16-2018, 03:41 AM
#149
Racer
Over 40+ years of car ownership (and when I was a kid I was the guy doing the oil changes and tune-ups) I have never seen a manual tranny break on any car. Clutches wear out (I replaced one myself on my 1971 Datsun 1200 back in the day) but the transmissions don't seem to ever be problematic. Automatics are far more complex, and as we know, the C7 has had its (ahem) issues with the A8. That being said, the only clutch I ever saw wear out (or that I even ever heard of wearing out) WAS the one on that 1971 Datsun c. 1978.
I wonder what a normal life of a C7 clutch is? 200,000 miles? More?
I wonder what a normal life of a C7 clutch is? 200,000 miles? More?
I have owned many a Datsun Nissan Z cars.
Auto or Manual Transmissions and clutches last over 100K or should with proper maintenance.
So let double that to say 500HP... How many factory clutch do you think last 100K being abused like our Z cars say. Not many.
Let's talk apple to apples here....
Last edited by Mecinoid; 05-16-2018 at 04:18 AM.
05-16-2018, 03:56 AM
#150
Racer
What I was meaning was the internal heating of the transmission itself. I can't explain the transmission's programming; it's really complex. IDK if the shifts start lagging when the trans gets hot due to software trying to manage the temps,or the actuators start losing effectiveness (i.e. they react more slowly or with less power).
But you're right; engine temps are to be dealt with by the engine's systems.
Have a good one,
Mike
But you're right; engine temps are to be dealt with by the engine's systems.
Have a good one,
Mike
Different / Better Race Fluids can improve this. But, on the street might cause harder shifts when cold. Pick your poison carefully.
05-16-2018, 04:04 AM
#151
Racer
One thing I like about the M7 is the no lift shift feature. It reminds me of the old muscle car days with the 4 speed transmissions and while racing trying to execute the speed shift.
In the Corvette I really like testing my skills by taking it to red line using the no lift shift jabbing the clutch, grabbing the next gear, then pedaling the gas as it wiggles a bit and bam hitting the next gear. Hard to put into words but it is really a different experience than what I got when testing the A8.
Not saying it is better just offers for me a stronger test of my driving skills.
In the Corvette I really like testing my skills by taking it to red line using the no lift shift jabbing the clutch, grabbing the next gear, then pedaling the gas as it wiggles a bit and bam hitting the next gear. Hard to put into words but it is really a different experience than what I got when testing the A8.
Not saying it is better just offers for me a stronger test of my driving skills.
05-16-2018, 04:08 AM
#152
Racer
I know with all the posting I will probably be banned because someone thinks I am a know it all or whatever.....
I am here to live my life through my car experiences. I plan to enjoy myself.
Please do not take offense to anything I say. I am just posting my experiences and exercising this old grey matter... always learning from you guys....
Thank you Corvette Forum !!!!!
I am here to live my life through my car experiences. I plan to enjoy myself.
Please do not take offense to anything I say. I am just posting my experiences and exercising this old grey matter... always learning from you guys....
Thank you Corvette Forum !!!!!
05-16-2018, 08:20 AM
#153
Race Director
Member Since: Jul 2007
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 10,763
Received 2,379 Likes
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Big assumption there, I agree with the poster and he may own both like me. Some people are not limited to one sports car. I have built many.
I will admit that through the 90's the faster car was generally a stick shift car. It still doesn't mean that some guy with a automatic Corvette for example would not have a sports car. Ridiculous....
Sports Car can be a auto or stick shift. Weather it has a manual transmission or a auto transmission it is the way it is set up and how it performs. Even what type of road you are on or your mood.
Now if you are talking race car 99.9% of those are either DCT or some form of auto.
Using your logic and many a Ferrari or Lambo would not be a true sports cars.
I will admit that through the 90's the faster car was generally a stick shift car. It still doesn't mean that some guy with a automatic Corvette for example would not have a sports car. Ridiculous....
Sports Car can be a auto or stick shift. Weather it has a manual transmission or a auto transmission it is the way it is set up and how it performs. Even what type of road you are on or your mood.
Now if you are talking race car 99.9% of those are either DCT or some form of auto.
Using your logic and many a Ferrari or Lambo would not be a true sports cars.
One of the beauty of the auto is how instantly you can change between modes. It drives manual transmission drivers crazy if you have ever gone on fast cruises with them.
If you want to go to manual mode all you have to do is punch it and pull the shift lever into M while your car has dropped a couple or three gears whatever the computer decides is the best gear to get away in. Then just go with whatever you feel you want: quick early upshifts or, long wind outs with explosive shifts that sound like a cannon has gone off under your butt. Keep the speed climbing to triple digits until the corner etc. pull that left shifter car blimps thottle and downshifts even quicker than the upshifts. If you have never done a wide open shift or ultimate downshift in a A6 or A8 you would never know.
I love to heal toe a stick shift and am good at it but, got to admit the auto stops any compression skids going into to corners. Non issue at racing speeds.
I am NOT say a Auto is better. I am just saying that C7 Auto has some pretty impressive voodoo going on.
Ask me which one I would take to the track..... Auto hands down....
Why ... because I want to win and the auto allow me to focus on other tasks and winning is fun !!!!
If you want to go to manual mode all you have to do is punch it and pull the shift lever into M while your car has dropped a couple or three gears whatever the computer decides is the best gear to get away in. Then just go with whatever you feel you want: quick early upshifts or, long wind outs with explosive shifts that sound like a cannon has gone off under your butt. Keep the speed climbing to triple digits until the corner etc. pull that left shifter car blimps thottle and downshifts even quicker than the upshifts. If you have never done a wide open shift or ultimate downshift in a A6 or A8 you would never know.
I love to heal toe a stick shift and am good at it but, got to admit the auto stops any compression skids going into to corners. Non issue at racing speeds.
I am NOT say a Auto is better. I am just saying that C7 Auto has some pretty impressive voodoo going on.
Ask me which one I would take to the track..... Auto hands down....
Why ... because I want to win and the auto allow me to focus on other tasks and winning is fun !!!!
Man there is a lot there. First your talking low torque and low hp cars
I have owned many a Datsun Nissan Z cars.
Auto or Manual Transmissions and clutches last over 100K or should with proper maintenance.
So let double that to say 500HP... How many factory clutch do you think last 100K being abused like our Z cars say. Not many.
Let's talk apple to apples here....
I have owned many a Datsun Nissan Z cars.
Auto or Manual Transmissions and clutches last over 100K or should with proper maintenance.
So let double that to say 500HP... How many factory clutch do you think last 100K being abused like our Z cars say. Not many.
Let's talk apple to apples here....
I know with all the posting I will probably be banned because someone thinks I am a know it all or whatever.....
I am here to live my life through my car experiences. I plan to enjoy myself.
Please do not take offense to anything I say. I am just posting my experiences and exercising this old grey matter... always learning from you guys....
Thank you Corvette Forum !!!!!
I am here to live my life through my car experiences. I plan to enjoy myself.
Please do not take offense to anything I say. I am just posting my experiences and exercising this old grey matter... always learning from you guys....
Thank you Corvette Forum !!!!!
05-16-2018, 11:13 AM
#154
My '17 Grand Sport is an auto because that was the compromise my wife agreed on. She could never learn to drive my '79 L82 with a 4 speed (gear ratio was high and a stiff clutch), so I got a new A8 and love it!.
Very fun to drive, just like my '79 L82 was.
Very fun to drive, just like my '79 L82 was.
05-16-2018, 11:25 AM
#155
Le Mans Master
Why do M7 guys care so much about the A8 guys and what they drive and what it says about them?
It slays me. Ask an A8 guy about a transmission, he'll tell you how his paddles shift. Ask an M7 guy, he'll tell you what the A8 guy is like.
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Del the Grand Sport (05-16-2018)
05-16-2018, 11:53 AM
#156
Yeah, but why give a **** about what the other person does with THEIR life?
Why do M7 guys care so much about the A8 guys and what they drive and what it says about them?
It slays me. Ask an A8 guy about a transmission, he'll tell you how his paddles shift. Ask an M7 guy, he'll tell you what the A8 guy is like.
Why do M7 guys care so much about the A8 guys and what they drive and what it says about them?
It slays me. Ask an A8 guy about a transmission, he'll tell you how his paddles shift. Ask an M7 guy, he'll tell you what the A8 guy is like.
I dont recall ever reading an M7 driver state they wish they'd of bought the auto trans. Every day on forum, you'll find at least one auto owner state their regret in not buying the M7.
That ought to clue you in right there.
.
Last edited by Skid Row Joe; 05-16-2018 at 12:26 PM.
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ptran00 (05-20-2018)
05-16-2018, 11:57 AM
#157
Le Mans Master
Do you have any idea how easy it would be for me to go and multi-quote a dozen M7 owners waxing philosophic on what it means about a person that they drive an A8?
So easy I'm not going to bother.
In fact, I don't even have to bother, because you did it yourself. According to you, based on no information whatsoever, I didn't choose the A8 based on its merits, I "gave up" something and "lost perspective" and so on.
See the pattern yet?
**** it, I give up. From here on out, all M7 owners have an extra chromosome. An extra copy of the Y chromosome to make them extra manly. They're all XYY, and rumor holds that Ronnie Sox was actually YYY.
Last edited by davepl; 05-16-2018 at 11:59 AM.
05-16-2018, 01:35 PM
#158
But again, all you've managed to actually say is that there is "driver involvement and control in the M7 that isn't present in the auto" without explaining or defining why any of that is good or desirable.
Even if I grant that involvement is "good" for some reason, the M7 still doesn't really offer an advantage on those grounds because the A8 can be driven manually as well.
Since the auto has paddle shifters it seems to me that if the A8 driver so desires, they can put it in M and shift it with exactly the same level of driver involvement and control. One is a paddle and one is a lever but they command the same function - change intermediate ratio. That's all.
Your notion of soft shifts and the lack of a mechanical connection are psychological. I don't have the math chops but the centrifugal forces connecting the turbine to the impeller are ENORMOUS at high rpm. There is theoretical slippage, but that's it... theoretical. If you've felt an A8 shift hard it feels purely mechanical with no sense of a fluid shift whatsoever (at power).
Same with the notion of a "lazy" shift. Have you ever been in an A8 car for a WOT 1-2 shift at 6400RPM? It cuts fuel, changes gears, and reapplies power in about 100ms. It literally BANGS you into your seat. Far faster (and more brutal) than even the best human M7 driver could approach.
So, I could say the A8 offers the same level of driver involvement all while offering better performance. I don't say that, because it sounds like I'm saying the A8 is the better car and I'm not.
I guess I'm not getting why a lever over a paddle is some amount of "involvement". If people came out and said "Yeah, they're the same thing but one is electronic and one is mechanical and it's a psychological difference only", I'd buy that.
And hey, remember I'm not saying the A8 is better, only that it's not worse. I should be able to make that stand without offending anyone.
Even if I grant that involvement is "good" for some reason, the M7 still doesn't really offer an advantage on those grounds because the A8 can be driven manually as well.
Since the auto has paddle shifters it seems to me that if the A8 driver so desires, they can put it in M and shift it with exactly the same level of driver involvement and control. One is a paddle and one is a lever but they command the same function - change intermediate ratio. That's all.
Your notion of soft shifts and the lack of a mechanical connection are psychological. I don't have the math chops but the centrifugal forces connecting the turbine to the impeller are ENORMOUS at high rpm. There is theoretical slippage, but that's it... theoretical. If you've felt an A8 shift hard it feels purely mechanical with no sense of a fluid shift whatsoever (at power).
Same with the notion of a "lazy" shift. Have you ever been in an A8 car for a WOT 1-2 shift at 6400RPM? It cuts fuel, changes gears, and reapplies power in about 100ms. It literally BANGS you into your seat. Far faster (and more brutal) than even the best human M7 driver could approach.
So, I could say the A8 offers the same level of driver involvement all while offering better performance. I don't say that, because it sounds like I'm saying the A8 is the better car and I'm not.
I guess I'm not getting why a lever over a paddle is some amount of "involvement". If people came out and said "Yeah, they're the same thing but one is electronic and one is mechanical and it's a psychological difference only", I'd buy that.
And hey, remember I'm not saying the A8 is better, only that it's not worse. I should be able to make that stand without offending anyone.
05-16-2018, 01:44 PM
#159
I particularly like the hill holder clutch for idiots feature on the C7, I guess that's pretty standard on stick shift cars these days. Technology RULES.
05-16-2018, 02:23 PM
#160
Yea I hear you. A lot of people end up buying the A8 because they want others in the family to be able to drive it.
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Del the Grand Sport (05-17-2018)