Thoughts on Spring Mountain Advanced Driving School (and video)
05-16-2018, 03:48 PM
#21
Drifting
Just curious how many guys go back and do level 2 ? I was there last November and had a blast . I've been thinking of going back but not sure which class to take. The lead instructor said dollar for dollar repeating session 1 is the better value since its 3 days compared to 2 and level 2 is more expensive as well.
05-16-2018, 04:37 PM
#22
I haven't seen much here about it.
I am not the best driver in the world, but I was a bit concerned if it was worth my while having done a number of HPDE. Here are my opinions.
Bottom line/Cliff Notes:
I had a blast and definitely learned a ton. I'd say it's actually hard to not learn and have fun unless you're approaching a mid pack racer. then maybe you're a bit above it. I drive in advanced drive groups regularly and am a pretty good HPDE driver. It's fairly rare I get passed, and I had a great time.
Longer version
I own a Grand Sport, but I opted for a Z51. They just credit you about $1600 towards the Level II. GS and Z07 cost more than Z51 (a lot more). I went Z51. I'm actually glad because I had a bad run off and I didn't damage anything. If I had a splitter or side skirts, at that track I'd be paying for them and maybe more. There are big rocks all over the runoff.
It started out painfully elementary. We practiced downshifting with rev-match. I was about ready to ask for a refund. I still don't understand this exercise.
Then it quickly became "advanced." We did a lot of lead follow, but I didn't mind because it was a pretty good pace, especially for someone who hasn't driven the course. They separated us all into groups based on our speed from the first session, so no one was much slower than anyone else. The instructors just drove faster if you got faster so it was a lot like open lapping except you can't pass.
They would talk to you through the radio in your car (they have a CB type system rigged im there). It's fine, and pretty good, but Jesus fawk, it's hard to concentrate on driving while there is someone CONSTANTLY critiquing your while the exhaust is WOT.
This is probably my biggest complaint, which isn't really that big of a deal. I'm not even sure what the alternative is- maybe watch your video with you after and cut down the chatting while driving by a bit. It's a very busy and technical track so it's hard to concentrate on actually driving.
Other than that, instructors were pretty good. Some were definitely better at teaching than others- all were very knowledgeable, patient and polite. I went off once and didnt really get any good explanation but "you braked too late" Well no ****. I went home and watched video for about an hour and eventually figured it out (their map lies. Don't power between 6 and 7 if you do 6 correctly). I think this could be improved a bit more.
Track layout and surface was top notch. I really enjoyed it.
Video
Here's my video chasing a Z07 in my Z51. He had the fastest Z07 of the class and his best was about 0.10 sec faster than my best lap. A guy with a GSZ07 was about 3/4 sec faster than me. He was pretty smooth too.
https://youtu.be/jD9ROYC4l0k
I am not the best driver in the world, but I was a bit concerned if it was worth my while having done a number of HPDE. Here are my opinions.
Bottom line/Cliff Notes:
I had a blast and definitely learned a ton. I'd say it's actually hard to not learn and have fun unless you're approaching a mid pack racer. then maybe you're a bit above it. I drive in advanced drive groups regularly and am a pretty good HPDE driver. It's fairly rare I get passed, and I had a great time.
Longer version
I own a Grand Sport, but I opted for a Z51. They just credit you about $1600 towards the Level II. GS and Z07 cost more than Z51 (a lot more). I went Z51. I'm actually glad because I had a bad run off and I didn't damage anything. If I had a splitter or side skirts, at that track I'd be paying for them and maybe more. There are big rocks all over the runoff.
It started out painfully elementary. We practiced downshifting with rev-match. I was about ready to ask for a refund. I still don't understand this exercise.
Then it quickly became "advanced." We did a lot of lead follow, but I didn't mind because it was a pretty good pace, especially for someone who hasn't driven the course. They separated us all into groups based on our speed from the first session, so no one was much slower than anyone else. The instructors just drove faster if you got faster so it was a lot like open lapping except you can't pass.
They would talk to you through the radio in your car (they have a CB type system rigged im there). It's fine, and pretty good, but Jesus fawk, it's hard to concentrate on driving while there is someone CONSTANTLY critiquing your while the exhaust is WOT.
This is probably my biggest complaint, which isn't really that big of a deal. I'm not even sure what the alternative is- maybe watch your video with you after and cut down the chatting while driving by a bit. It's a very busy and technical track so it's hard to concentrate on actually driving.
Other than that, instructors were pretty good. Some were definitely better at teaching than others- all were very knowledgeable, patient and polite. I went off once and didnt really get any good explanation but "you braked too late" Well no ****. I went home and watched video for about an hour and eventually figured it out (their map lies. Don't power between 6 and 7 if you do 6 correctly). I think this could be improved a bit more.
Track layout and surface was top notch. I really enjoyed it.
Video
Here's my video chasing a Z07 in my Z51. He had the fastest Z07 of the class and his best was about 0.10 sec faster than my best lap. A guy with a GSZ07 was about 3/4 sec faster than me. He was pretty smooth too.
https://youtu.be/jD9ROYC4l0k
05-16-2018, 05:22 PM
#23
Premium Supporting Vendor
could probably do 2-3 seconds quicker if really trying...
2:00 is a good lap time, if consistent. really focusing on technique, smoothness and how to transition from one corner to the next, is really crucial on the track here...
05-16-2018, 06:47 PM
#24
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
05-16-2018, 06:49 PM
#25
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
they do demo laps in the 1:56-2:00 range.
could probably do 2-3 seconds quicker if really trying...
2:00 is a good lap time, if consistent. really focusing on technique, smoothness and how to transition from one corner to the next, is really crucial on the track here...
could probably do 2-3 seconds quicker if really trying...
2:00 is a good lap time, if consistent. really focusing on technique, smoothness and how to transition from one corner to the next, is really crucial on the track here...
05-16-2018, 08:24 PM
#26
because for the same price I can get 4 track days. That's what I'm saying. Why do ron fellows unless you're interested going to vegas or are a noob. Cause for the same money, I can get much more experience, training and practice locally.
05-16-2018, 09:23 PM
#27
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Depending on the track, I can damn near kill a set of tires in 10 sessions alone. I can typically squeeze 3, maybe 4 full days if I risk it, at most out of a set of tires. Call it $1200, on the low side.
2 full days is about 1/4 of a set of rotors and pads. Call that even a measly $400.
2 full days is about $150 worth of gas (2-3 tanks)
Oil change is about $100.
--------------------------------------
$1850 right there.
And on top of that, your track time/track fee (most are at least $250), wear and tear on your car, value of going to a new track, instruction, food (breakfast and lunch), and whatever limiting your damage to $8k is worth. And it's not some public track day with cars shoe-horned on the track. We never had more than 13 or 14 students on track IIRC. And that is all assuming your time is worthless (labor isn't included). This isn't some level 1, green group instructor that knows the track and nothing more. I'm faster than most instructors at open track days. This is real instruction with people who are really fast and can get you really fast- something you'd probably pay $300-500 for around here.
I'm not sure I'd pay the full $3600 or whatever it is, but $1600 it's a bargain. Getting 4 track days in on a c7 for $1600 all in seems far fetched.
Last edited by village idiot; 05-16-2018 at 11:01 PM.
05-17-2018, 09:07 AM
#28
Melting Slicks
Just curious how many guys go back and do level 2 ? I was there last November and had a blast . I've been thinking of going back but not sure which class to take. The lead instructor said dollar for dollar repeating session 1 is the better value since its 3 days compared to 2 and level 2 is more expensive as well.
If you were not superfast such that traffic was a constant problem, I would much rather have 3 days of track time in Level 1 over 2 days in Level 2, because in either situation, it is pretty doubtful you will outrun any of the instructors.
05-17-2018, 11:40 AM
#29
Yeah, for sure. The earlier I braked, the more I dropped lap time. I'm still not sure why the hell that is, because I've always been taught to jam on the brakes trail off.
Pretty happy with my 1.59. The only two cars faster were people who had been there in a Z07 (0.1 sec) and a GS Z07 (0.7sec).
Pretty happy with my 1.59. The only two cars faster were people who had been there in a Z07 (0.1 sec) and a GS Z07 (0.7sec).
Last edited by rb185afm; 05-17-2018 at 11:58 AM.
05-17-2018, 12:59 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Any ride alongs I've ever done with some very fast drivers have hard braking and trailing off though. It kind of depends on the turn.
05-17-2018, 03:54 PM
#31
Racer
Just curious how many guys go back and do level 2 ? I was there last November and had a blast . I've been thinking of going back but not sure which class to take. The lead instructor said dollar for dollar repeating session 1 is the better value since its 3 days compared to 2 and level 2 is more expensive as well.
Another thing to consider is not just the number of days on track... but the hours. At a typical HOD track day I get five 20 minute sessions for a total of 100 minutes of track time. At some of the driving schools I've been to it's 20 min on track, 20 min in the classroom, then right back on track... all day (other than lunch)... It wouldn't surprise me that I'd get twice as much time on-track at a driving school than at a typical track day.
I'm not trying to say that there isn't a benefit from doing HPDE events, honestly I'd suggest doing a level 1 school... practice what you've learned on your own... then go back for more education (and repeat the process).
05-17-2018, 04:02 PM
#32
Le Mans Master
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Thanks for the review!
I did the COS last March (in an A8 Z06), but after picking up a 2017 M7 Z06 I was debating doing the COS again (in a manual) or doing a Level 1 or 2 class.
My main concern for those is I had to get a waiver for no helmet as I’m too tall to wear one with the comp seats.
I did the COS last March (in an A8 Z06), but after picking up a 2017 M7 Z06 I was debating doing the COS again (in a manual) or doing a Level 1 or 2 class.
My main concern for those is I had to get a waiver for no helmet as I’m too tall to wear one with the comp seats.
05-17-2018, 04:03 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
When I did the level 2 school a few years ago (here's my write-up from 2012), it was to get the most time on-track as possible. Other than the minimal drills in the beginning, the two days are nearly all spent on track (or in the classroom preparing for the next track session). If you were finding the car control drills, etc. extremely helpful... then doing the level 1 school again would probably be my recommendation. For max time on-track the level 2 is best, IMO.
There is a TON to be learned with instruction, even more so on a new track. I've always found it fun to drive at a new/different track than my home circuits. I have yet to do a driving school where I didn't learn/improve... and have never felt held-back by the course/instructors (even going to the COS earlier this year). Yes, getting a private instructor for a trackday is similar to the instruction at a driving school... and thinking about it, is something I should do one of these days.
As for the cost, as someone who has broken my cars on track 4 times (engine twice and axles twice) with two trips home on the back of a flatbed... driving someone else's car is WONDERFULLY relaxing. The schools have techs that check the car, change fluids/consumables, etc... I can focus 100% on driving. When a car is having a mechanical issue (which happened to me at both Bondurant and Miller Motorsports Park) they just give you another car and off you go. I've lost over $2000 in track time from mechanical issue on-track at HPDE events; not to mention the repair costs.
Another thing to consider is not just the number of days on track... but the hours. At a typical HOD track day I get five 20 minute sessions for a total of 100 minutes of track time. At some of the driving schools I've been to it's 20 min on track, 20 min in the classroom, then right back on track... all day (other than lunch)... It wouldn't surprise me that I'd get twice as much time on-track at a driving school than at a typical track day.
I'm not trying to say that there isn't a benefit from doing HPDE events, honestly I'd suggest doing a level 1 school... practice what you've learned on your own... then go back for more education (and repeat the process).
There is a TON to be learned with instruction, even more so on a new track. I've always found it fun to drive at a new/different track than my home circuits. I have yet to do a driving school where I didn't learn/improve... and have never felt held-back by the course/instructors (even going to the COS earlier this year). Yes, getting a private instructor for a trackday is similar to the instruction at a driving school... and thinking about it, is something I should do one of these days.
As for the cost, as someone who has broken my cars on track 4 times (engine twice and axles twice) with two trips home on the back of a flatbed... driving someone else's car is WONDERFULLY relaxing. The schools have techs that check the car, change fluids/consumables, etc... I can focus 100% on driving. When a car is having a mechanical issue (which happened to me at both Bondurant and Miller Motorsports Park) they just give you another car and off you go. I've lost over $2000 in track time from mechanical issue on-track at HPDE events; not to mention the repair costs.
Another thing to consider is not just the number of days on track... but the hours. At a typical HOD track day I get five 20 minute sessions for a total of 100 minutes of track time. At some of the driving schools I've been to it's 20 min on track, 20 min in the classroom, then right back on track... all day (other than lunch)... It wouldn't surprise me that I'd get twice as much time on-track at a driving school than at a typical track day.
I'm not trying to say that there isn't a benefit from doing HPDE events, honestly I'd suggest doing a level 1 school... practice what you've learned on your own... then go back for more education (and repeat the process).
It seems reasonable that I got about three days worth of track time in those 2 days.
05-17-2018, 04:05 PM
#34
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Thanks for the review!
I did the COS last March (in an A8 Z06), but after picking up a 2017 M7 Z06 I was debating doing the COS again (in a manual) or doing a Level 1 or 2 class.
My main concern for those is I had to get a waiver for no helmet as I’m too tall to wear one with the comp seats.
I did the COS last March (in an A8 Z06), but after picking up a 2017 M7 Z06 I was debating doing the COS again (in a manual) or doing a Level 1 or 2 class.
My main concern for those is I had to get a waiver for no helmet as I’m too tall to wear one with the comp seats.
05-17-2018, 06:37 PM
#35
In Level 2, did you do a session where you were the lead car and the instructor drove behind you, critiquing your driving? If so, what are your thoughts on that arrangement vs following the instructor?
05-17-2018, 07:10 PM
#36
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
edit: I think the instructors also got a better view of what I was doing and I got better feedback.
Last edited by village idiot; 05-17-2018 at 07:10 PM.
05-18-2018, 03:03 PM
#37
Premium Supporting Vendor
Thanks for the review!
I did the COS last March (in an A8 Z06), but after picking up a 2017 M7 Z06 I was debating doing the COS again (in a manual) or doing a Level 1 or 2 class.
My main concern for those is I had to get a waiver for no helmet as I’m too tall to wear one with the comp seats.
I did the COS last March (in an A8 Z06), but after picking up a 2017 M7 Z06 I was debating doing the COS again (in a manual) or doing a Level 1 or 2 class.
My main concern for those is I had to get a waiver for no helmet as I’m too tall to wear one with the comp seats.
05-18-2018, 05:00 PM
#38
I did cos a couple months ago, 2nd week of Feb. I am seriously thinking about the level 2 school. I thought the live feedback through the speakers was awesome, I used what they were saying the best I could and did not find it distracting at all........ I am 50 ish years old and there were a few younger guys and a few older guys. I seriously kicked everybody's butt as far as lap times go.... I have minimal carting experience and sport bikes...... I went there to learn and Spring Mountain delivered....... I certainly would not critique them on a level 2 for giving live feedback..... kinda the point of taking driving lessons..... only thing better would be to have an instructor in the car....... as far as the times given earlier in the thread I did a 1.40 on the east track followed by a 1.38.66 and I think the instructor in front of me could have walked away if he wanted...... link to my pdr video
05-18-2018, 05:34 PM
#39
Drifting
I just looked at the pricing, $2,500 off with purchasing a Corvette is pretty good for a 3-day school. I may need to go purchase a new Vette haha.
05-18-2018, 06:17 PM
#40
Man, you're seriously quick! A 1:38 is a very good lap in the GS. I managed a 1:35 in the Z06.