theplatinumog

I was feeling pretty good about my shark bar / harness set up until this weekend. I was speaking with by far the most successful racing driver I have ever spoken to. He was the head pro at Inde motorsports ranch where I was all weekend. Anyways, he told me he has crashed a lot of street cars... a lot. He said in the event of a roll over accident, I would be much better off in the stock 3-point belt because I could see the roll coming and duck when the roof caves in. With the race harnesses, my shoulders would be locked into position.

Thoughts? Roll cage time? Is there an option to assist with rollover protection, but not an all out cage? Is the halo going to be enough and I am being paranoid? Is the detachable roof going to come into the cabin? Already broke my neck once...

X25

I also have a similar setup, and for this reason, I only use ASM (anti submarine) belts on my car from Schroth racing, like many of my other friends also do. I currently have Profi II ASM model. These harnesses have a double stitched part by the inner (right) shoulder. In the event of an impact the stitches detach and let your body lean forward, saving you from becoming a load-bearing 'column' inside the car : )

AORoads

Very interesting thread/posts by both of you. My guess is in an accident anything can happen--the forces come from every direction. I like what X has posted because most of these things are designed in the lab based on real-world occurrences. I went to the Schroth site-very interesting.

yeller z06

Back in my HPDE days this was a constant point of discussion. Most folks seem to agree that the odds of you being able to correctly identify a potential rollover situation, react and maintain your appropriate body position are minimal.

I've been in a few crashes myself. Car dynamics are often unpredictable, and you are (IMHO) much better off with a full harness.

The safest place to be is in the pits.

kenownr

Just in for the conversation. I never track mine (to old and slow LOL) but always interested in legitimate safety conversations - thanks guys -- tom

Racingswh

I think the right way to lessen the concern is to put a proper full roll cage in your car.

My wife was in a DE crash in 2014 where she barrel rolled her 2010 Grand Sport 4 times. The A&B pillars held up surprisingly well. She was firmly belted in with 6 point harnesses using a Brey Krause harness bar. She was okay after the accident but I feel that had a lot more to do with luck than anything else.

Racingswh

Before
After
Oh and yes I forgot the detachable roof tears right off and flies around. It certainly could come into the cabin.

Mcrider

Centrifugal force is going to determine where your head is in a roll. You aren't going to have a choice in the matter. I was a paramedic/firefighter for 9 years. I would choose the race harness every single time.

CTPJ

theplatinumog - as a former pro driver, PCA & BMWCCA instructor, distributor of safety equipment (including HANS devices, safety harnesses, and role cages), I have to agree with what the other instructor advised. I have driven cars that would have trap speeds over 210 mph at Daytona, I have walked away from a 180 mph crash at Mid Ohio, and I have witnesses numerous incidents where drivers have lost their lives. This includes my former co-driver, friend, and mentor. That being said, I've been there and had this conversation with numerous people such as yourself. In my humble opinion, anytime you get out on the track as a driver or passenger you are at risk of something going sideways that could result in property damage and/or physical injury (Read the Release you are required to sign upon entering the track). People will argue all day long about the level of that risk. (The "I'll be fine", "I'm a good driver" or "I won't be pushing the car that hard" argument.) It is your personal choice as to how you want to address that risk (as long as no one else is in the car with you). It is not unlike the choice to ride a motorcycle without a helmet in a state that allows it. Just like riding a motorcycle, a serious accident can result from something you have no control over such as the action of another driver or mechanical failure. In the situation where my friend was killed, he was a world champion Porsche endurance driver that had raced (and won) the 24 hrs of Daytona and 12 hrs of Sebring as well as driven at Le Mans. Needless to say he was a better and more experienced driver than anyone reading this (including myself). He was killed driving a Nissan GTP car at Road Atlanta during an open track day prior to the Walter Mitty. It happened just after exiting the pit lane as the result of another driver, who didn't see him, moving over on him going into the esses and running him off the road. Even with all the safety equipment available, including a HANS device, he was still fatally injured and died hours later. I have also read the complete autopsy and report on Dale Earnhardt's crash. Many feel that had he been wearing a HANS device he would have survived (maybe/maybe not). He was not wearing one because he had tried one during practice and didn't like the way it restricted his head movement.

I didn't mean for this to be so long winded, however, here are my thoughts. Our cars can go every bit as fast as a race car on a track and faster than some (150+ on the back straight at VIR). If you want to be as safe as possible than you need to have at least a roll bar, a race seat with a halo, a 5 point harness (all correctly installed), a closed face helmet, and a HANS device (and the same for your passenger).This will not ensure you will not get injured if you have a incident, however, it will provide maximum protection short of being in a race car with a full cage and fire suppression system. This equipment is designed to work together as a safety system and should be used together. Now, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't go out on the track without any of these (I have and do), but, the less protection you have, the greater the risk of serious injury. As for the point regarding the three point harness vs a harness bar and a 4 or 5 point harness, the guy is correct to a point. The advantage (and disadvantage) to having the bar and harness is to keep you firmly in your seat. On the plus side, it keeps you from moving around and have better control while driving, and may help in certain types of accidents. On the opposite side of the coin, should you have a rollover and your A and/or B pillar fail you will have nowhere to go. A three point system has its advantages and disadvantages as well. It will not keep you as well planted in the seat while cornering and may not protect you as well in the event of an accident. Here is where I would venture to differ from the OP's instructor I is not so much that you can consciously duck if you see a rollover coming, it is that your body will have the opportunity to move around as the safety structure fails. We've all seen crashes where people have "walked away" from damage that would seem fatal. that is because their body was able to be moved into space that was still intact. This is why we don't have 4 or more point harnesses in street cars from the factory. Unfortunately, no one can determine if a crash will cause physical injury before it occurs.

While reading this, please understand that this is just the thoughts of a person who has been around this stuff for awhile. This a great country where we are free to take the level of risk we are comfortable with. With that said, I love to race, drive on the track and coach other drivers. I would do it everyday if I could. I don't have a death wish and would not do it if every-time I got in a car, I thought I would not get out of it under my own power. A car on a racetrack demand 100% of your concentration anything less IS unsafe.

Thanks,

Todd

walleyejack

great write up and opinion.

theplatinumog

No need to apologize. I enjoyed every word.

Racingswh

I loved sports car racing in the 80's and had heard of Bob because at that time I was following a local guy in Warrington, PA who also had some success at the wheel as well, Al Holbert Jr. (took me on my very first ride in a Porsche 911 in 1980). Bob was a very successful racer. If memory serves me he won an IMSA championship?

It was terrible what happened. I never really knew the particulars of that crash.

Sucks to lose friends. Seems to happen more and more lately as we get older.

I personally just got rid of the C7GS on Monday and a full cage is going in the C6Z. I decided I had pressed my luck too many times and did not want to cut up the C7.

tw78911sc

Agree 100% with CTPG, remember it you take that caged car back to the street without a helmet/HANS you head/knees are inches away from a roll bar and I doubt you have your belts cinched down when driving to the circle K.

kenownr

CTPJ: Thank you for your time and the great write-up.

bullitt4110

A roll bar, although not a cage would probably be sufficient for most situations. A forum vendor that is actually local to us is making them for our cars as well. RSD out of Vacaville.

AORoads

wow to the racing accident GS of Racingswh. Glad your wife came out of that one.

IRMB

It seems to me that if you're gunna have your body rigidly fixed in place - then you need to have the cars structure sound enough to afford that space in case of roll over. IE - if you're gunna run a harness and halo, you need a roll bar - so your car doesn't collapse on you.

IRMB

Kevin Reynolds is having his installed now. I'm gunna go see it when its done.

bullitt4110

Sweet! The C5/C6 bars that he made are excellent, that’s what Rich and Carrie run in their cars.

subieworx

Exactly!!

The only time I will "allow" the use of a harness bar is for autox, but I still wouldn't use it myself. Get a cage first for a proper harness installation.