Jim Mero is retiring today
09-08-2018, 11:11 AM
#21
You missed my point. Mero DIDN'T tune the base car. He officially approved it, but he only cares about Track Mode and PTM.
At GM supplier engineers do most of the actual tuning work. The GM ride and handling guys just approve the final result. The steering in Touring and Sport was tuned by a guy named Scott Montgomery who worked for Bosch. He also did the track tuning but with Mero in the car for that one.
GM likes to make it seem like their engineers do more than they actually do. They lean heavily on the supply base, since they pay to have what we in the industry call "Full Service Suppliers"
At GM supplier engineers do most of the actual tuning work. The GM ride and handling guys just approve the final result. The steering in Touring and Sport was tuned by a guy named Scott Montgomery who worked for Bosch. He also did the track tuning but with Mero in the car for that one.
GM likes to make it seem like their engineers do more than they actually do. They lean heavily on the supply base, since they pay to have what we in the industry call "Full Service Suppliers"
Scott Montgomery did a lot of the upfront tuning for the 2014 car because Jim was just getting familiar with the electronic steering system. Scott worked on the 2014 and 2015 cars then turned over the responsibilities to another ZF engineer named Steve. Since then, Jim and Steve worked together, each working different cars at the same time. Jim would tell Steve the changes he wanted, Steve would make the changes in the software and flash them into the car. After the upfront work Scott Montgomery did in the 2014 car, Jim and Scott worked in this fashion as well.
Scott never drove the car on the race track. Jim always drove with Scott riding and making the changes Jim requested.
Also with MRC, Jim does all his own development including working the software for every mode in every chassis package. Over the life of the C7, including the new MRC calibrations that are offered through the Service Parts Organization, drivability in all 3 modes has contentiously improved, world class in my opinion. Maybe you should take some time to read the posts of the members that have had the new calibrations installed.
You are misinformed, sir.
Last edited by vette friend; 09-08-2018 at 11:47 AM.
09-08-2018, 03:58 PM
#22
JM did a great job improving MSRC with the new calibrations. However, anyone who's driven a C7 w/ a DSC Sport controller knows there is more to be had in terms of both comfort and performance. A number of folks have here have documented cutting 2-3 seconds off their lap times at various tracks with a DSC Sport MSRC controller.
Last edited by Foosh; 09-08-2018 at 04:31 PM.
09-08-2018, 08:53 PM
#23
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Now that Jim has retired, I have chatted with him several times in the past week. This morning, I sent him your posts in this thread. He laughed. Apparently you were let go by ZF a long time ago.
Scott Montgomery did a lot of the upfront tuning for the 2014 car because Jim was just getting familiar with the electronic steering system. Scott worked on the 2014 and 2015 cars then turned over the responsibilities to another ZF engineer named Steve. Since then, Jim and Steve worked together, each working different cars at the same time. Jim would tell Steve the changes he wanted, Steve would make the changes in the software and flash them into the car. After the upfront work Scott Montgomery did in the 2014 car, Jim and Scott worked in this fashion as well.
Scott never drove the car on the race track. Jim always drove with Scott riding and making the changes Jim requested.
Also with MRC, Jim does all his own development including working the software for every mode in every chassis package. Over the life of the C7, including the new MRC calibrations that are offered through the Service Parts Organization, drivability in all 3 modes has contentiously improved, world class in my opinion. Maybe you should take some time to read the posts of the members that have had the new calibrations installed.
You are misinformed, sir.
Scott Montgomery did a lot of the upfront tuning for the 2014 car because Jim was just getting familiar with the electronic steering system. Scott worked on the 2014 and 2015 cars then turned over the responsibilities to another ZF engineer named Steve. Since then, Jim and Steve worked together, each working different cars at the same time. Jim would tell Steve the changes he wanted, Steve would make the changes in the software and flash them into the car. After the upfront work Scott Montgomery did in the 2014 car, Jim and Scott worked in this fashion as well.
Scott never drove the car on the race track. Jim always drove with Scott riding and making the changes Jim requested.
Also with MRC, Jim does all his own development including working the software for every mode in every chassis package. Over the life of the C7, including the new MRC calibrations that are offered through the Service Parts Organization, drivability in all 3 modes has contentiously improved, world class in my opinion. Maybe you should take some time to read the posts of the members that have had the new calibrations installed.
You are misinformed, sir.
To set the record straight, Steve did the re-tune when they removed the rare-earth material from the EPS motor, he now works at GM having left Bosch (which is what ZFLS became). Everything I've said is my opinion of the situation, to which as you stated above Jim actually supports. The guy actually tuning the values on the laptop is the guy tuning the car, (which is exactly what he just said they did). The other guy is just providing feedback on whether or not he likes it. Jim's an approver, he's not a tuner. All GM ride and handling engineers are.
But, of course though Jim isn't going to TELL you he didn't do the work, it would hurt his ego. In my opinion, the way GM does business in terms of tuning cars isn't consistent or correct (this is why every GM car drives and feels different than every other GM car, they have no DNA). They rely too much on the supplier instead of owning the part themselves. Everyone who has worked with GM ride and handling who has any skill set and knowledge will corroborate this.
You don't have to like what I say, but its true.
Last edited by LT1 Z51; 09-08-2018 at 09:07 PM.
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Foosh (09-09-2018)
09-08-2018, 10:41 PM
#24
Bottom line, I love the way my GS/Z07 drives, handles and feels. I’m not worried about the gossip.
09-09-2018, 01:06 AM
#25
Moderator
09-09-2018, 11:23 AM
#26
You may not be able to imagine it, but it can be better. There are a whole bunch of people who've made it better with readily available plug and play DSC MSRC controller.
Having said that, the recently upgraded calibrations are a tremendous improvement, and even the old OEM MSRC calibrations were much better than a car without.
Having said that, the recently upgraded calibrations are a tremendous improvement, and even the old OEM MSRC calibrations were much better than a car without.
Last edited by Foosh; 09-09-2018 at 01:13 PM.
09-09-2018, 01:45 PM
#27
You may not be able to imagine it, but it can be better. There are a whole bunch of people who've made it better with readily available plug and play DSC MSRC controller.
Having said that, the recently upgraded calibrations are a tremendous improvement, and even the old OEM MSRC calibrations were much better than a car without.
Having said that, the recently upgraded calibrations are a tremendous improvement, and even the old OEM MSRC calibrations were much better than a car without.
09-09-2018, 08:42 PM
#28
Moderator
You may not be able to imagine it, but it can be better. There are a whole bunch of people who've made it better with readily available plug and play DSC MSRC controller.
Having said that, the recently upgraded calibrations are a tremendous improvement, and even the old OEM MSRC calibrations were much better than a car without.
Having said that, the recently upgraded calibrations are a tremendous improvement, and even the old OEM MSRC calibrations were much better than a car without.
Last edited by Zjoe6; 09-11-2018 at 01:20 PM.
09-09-2018, 10:45 PM
#30
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That has to be the first time there ever has been a request of this nature........
09-10-2018, 07:35 AM
#31
LOL . . . so you can quote me, but I'm not supposed to quote you . . . UmmK.
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LT1 Z51 (09-10-2018)
09-10-2018, 09:10 AM
#32
Jim's misinformed, I was never let go of by anyone (I was actually promoted at ZFLS after leaving GM programs). If he wants to continue to say anything of that nature then I'll serve him with a slander lawsuit. Deadly serious here, you don't lie about when people have been let go from places, it's extremely unprofessional.
To set the record straight, Steve did the re-tune when they removed the rare-earth material from the EPS motor, he now works at GM having left Bosch (which is what ZFLS became). Everything I've said is my opinion of the situation, to which as you stated above Jim actually supports. The guy actually tuning the values on the laptop is the guy tuning the car, (which is exactly what he just said they did). The other guy is just providing feedback on whether or not he likes it. Jim's an approver, he's not a tuner. All GM ride and handling engineers are.
But, of course though Jim isn't going to TELL you he didn't do the work, it would hurt his ego. In my opinion, the way GM does business in terms of tuning cars isn't consistent or correct (this is why every GM car drives and feels different than every other GM car, they have no DNA). They rely too much on the supplier instead of owning the part themselves. Everyone who has worked with GM ride and handling who has any skill set and knowledge will corroborate this.
You don't have to like what I say, but its true.
To set the record straight, Steve did the re-tune when they removed the rare-earth material from the EPS motor, he now works at GM having left Bosch (which is what ZFLS became). Everything I've said is my opinion of the situation, to which as you stated above Jim actually supports. The guy actually tuning the values on the laptop is the guy tuning the car, (which is exactly what he just said they did). The other guy is just providing feedback on whether or not he likes it. Jim's an approver, he's not a tuner. All GM ride and handling engineers are.
But, of course though Jim isn't going to TELL you he didn't do the work, it would hurt his ego. In my opinion, the way GM does business in terms of tuning cars isn't consistent or correct (this is why every GM car drives and feels different than every other GM car, they have no DNA). They rely too much on the supplier instead of owning the part themselves. Everyone who has worked with GM ride and handling who has any skill set and knowledge will corroborate this.
You don't have to like what I say, but its true.
I don’t frequent the Corvette Forum as much as I would like to. Also, with the exception of a request from Tadge, my intent is to not make a habit of asking a friend to make a post for me. However, when these posts were brought to my attention, with information pertaining to me which is completely inaccurate, approaching blatant lies, I felt I had no choice but to set the record straight. The Corvette community has been so good to me during the last 14 years; I feel they deserve the truth.
I don’t recall ever meeting Justin. Back in the day, it is true he was moved from the GM account. I’ll refrain from “Leaking” the reason why. I believe he is now an employee for a GM competitor. Having said that, I find it amazing at how sure he is of himself relative to his opinions on the Corvette mode of development. The statement “Jim's an approver, he's not a tuner” is a flat out lie. At the risk of boring everyone, I’ll explain below the protocol used for both steering and MRC tuning.
Steering - For the last 5 years developing the Corvette steering, Steve and I probably spent about 40 to 50 weeks together tuning and re-tuning the steering. We worked together in Michigan, southeast Ohio, Arizona, California, and on the German Autobahns. We also worked together on race tracks throughout the USA and the Nurburgring.
The re-tunes mentioned above were due to changes made mechanically to the steering gear which forced calibration changes.
Also at this point I need to say Steve is a brilliant engineer. Over these 40 to 50 weeks we were always on the same page relative to how steering for the Corvette should feel in both the Tour and Sport modes. The protocol we used for Tour, Sport, and Track is as follows:
· For Tour and Sport, on any given day, Steve and I would each be driving a vehicle. Always with different chassis packages. For instance, Steve would be driving an FEA ZR1 (low wing) and I would be driving an FEB ZR1 (high wing ZTK).
· We would typically hit the road early in the morning and return late in the evening.
· During the day we would make anywhere from 20 to 50 calibration changes.
· For steering, Steve had the computers with ZF, and later Bosch software.
· During these changes, we would find a place where we could park side by side, driver side to driver side. I would explain to Steve the dynamics of the steering and the changes needed. I would suggest what algorithms needed to change.
· Many times Steve would make these changes in the calibrations, and many times he would suggest an alternative way to obtain the desired feel.
· Steve would make the calibration changes, hand a cable with the ALDL (OBD2) connector to me, I would plug into my car. The car would be flashed, and away we went.
· Typically several times during the day we would swap vehicles to get a sense check on each other’s car.
· There were many times I would be working by myself tuning MRC (more below). Many of these times I would be on the Autobahn or the Nurburgring and Steve would be in the USA, If I needed a steering change, I would call Steve, explain the change needed, Steve would email me a calibration, and I would flash the car myself.
· For Track mode, I would always be driving. Many times Steve would be riding, sometimes not. The protocol for Track mode changes was pretty must as explained above for Tour and Sport.
MRC - Since late 2015, I developed all Corvette MRC calibrations myself. Dramatically changing the philosophy which lead to the Chevrolet Service Parts updates offered through the dealerships and reflected in the entire 2019 production fitment. The complete details on the progression of the calibrations are in my “Ask Tadge” post. Every time we were tuning steering as mentioned above I was also tuning the MRC in the vehicle I was driving.
Just to put things in perspective, including all chassis packages from the base car to the ZR1 with ZTK, the number of steering and MRC calibrations equals 54 (30 steering and 24 MRC)
Sorry for the long winded explanation, but I hope now you can see why I take great exception to the inaccurate statements made in this thread.
I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the Corvette community for all the support over the last 14 years. Everything I have done in an effort to improve the car was first and foremost for the customer.
Thanks, Jim
Jim asked me to attach this photo of his set up for tuning MRC, He said he has no idea who photo-shopped the Vape though......
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09-10-2018, 10:18 AM
#33
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Let's just agree to disagree on definitions then.
The supplier involvement on the GM side versus other OEMs (for example here at Ford, or even at BMW and VW) is not the same. GM leans heavily on their suppliers, and doesn't get involved in creating or specifying how the tuning functions can work. They only know what the supplier tells them, and are not given full access to the tuning variables. I'm not even sure GM (or most OEMs) know(s) how to tune things in a steering system like Pull-Drift or Steering Nibble.
My opinion is that if you need the supplier for anything, you are not the tuner, you are an approver. If you fully own the tuning and can do everything on your own with no suppler involvement then you are a tuner. GM fundamentally does not do business this way.
As an opinion, and it should be obvious here, I was not a fan of the way GM does business in this regard. I also was not a fan of Jim, specifically when I first met him and his opinions of EPS. Maybe he changed over the 5 years after he used the system, but some of his comments on MSRC in 2012 did not give me a level of confidence in his abilities to tune or understand electronic systems. Further as a trained Computer Engineer, I think that a lot of these software like tuning parameters are just out of the scope of a Mechanical Engineers knowledge, no matter the training.
In automotive, there is way too much reliance on retraining Mechanical Engineers to do the jobs of Electrical, Computer, and Software Engineers. At least in Chassis Systems (including vehicle integration and tuning work) which have been histrionically pure mechanical systems prior to the introduction of ABS. This isn't an only GM problem its an industry wide thing, and I complain about it at work everyday.
The supplier involvement on the GM side versus other OEMs (for example here at Ford, or even at BMW and VW) is not the same. GM leans heavily on their suppliers, and doesn't get involved in creating or specifying how the tuning functions can work. They only know what the supplier tells them, and are not given full access to the tuning variables. I'm not even sure GM (or most OEMs) know(s) how to tune things in a steering system like Pull-Drift or Steering Nibble.
My opinion is that if you need the supplier for anything, you are not the tuner, you are an approver. If you fully own the tuning and can do everything on your own with no suppler involvement then you are a tuner. GM fundamentally does not do business this way.
As an opinion, and it should be obvious here, I was not a fan of the way GM does business in this regard. I also was not a fan of Jim, specifically when I first met him and his opinions of EPS. Maybe he changed over the 5 years after he used the system, but some of his comments on MSRC in 2012 did not give me a level of confidence in his abilities to tune or understand electronic systems. Further as a trained Computer Engineer, I think that a lot of these software like tuning parameters are just out of the scope of a Mechanical Engineers knowledge, no matter the training.
In automotive, there is way too much reliance on retraining Mechanical Engineers to do the jobs of Electrical, Computer, and Software Engineers. At least in Chassis Systems (including vehicle integration and tuning work) which have been histrionically pure mechanical systems prior to the introduction of ABS. This isn't an only GM problem its an industry wide thing, and I complain about it at work everyday.
Last edited by LT1 Z51; 09-10-2018 at 10:19 AM.
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09-10-2018, 12:29 PM
#35
Let's just agree to disagree on definitions then.
The supplier involvement on the GM side versus other OEMs (for example here at Ford, or even at BMW and VW) is not the same. GM leans heavily on their suppliers, and doesn't get involved in creating or specifying how the tuning functions can work. They only know what the supplier tells them, and are not given full access to the tuning variables. I'm not even sure GM (or most OEMs) know(s) how to tune things in a steering system like Pull-Drift or Steering Nibble.
My opinion is that if you need the supplier for anything, you are not the tuner, you are an approver. If you fully own the tuning and can do everything on your own with no suppler involvement then you are a tuner. GM fundamentally does not do business this way.
As an opinion, and it should be obvious here, I was not a fan of the way GM does business in this regard. I also was not a fan of Jim, specifically when I first met him and his opinions of EPS. Maybe he changed over the 5 years after he used the system, but some of his comments on MSRC in 2012 did not give me a level of confidence in his abilities to tune or understand electronic systems. Further as a trained Computer Engineer, I think that a lot of these software like tuning parameters are just out of the scope of a Mechanical Engineers knowledge, no matter the training.
In automotive, there is way too much reliance on retraining Mechanical Engineers to do the jobs of Electrical, Computer, and Software Engineers. At least in Chassis Systems (including vehicle integration and tuning work) which have been histrionically pure mechanical systems prior to the introduction of ABS. This isn't an only GM problem its an industry wide thing, and I complain about it at work everyday.
The supplier involvement on the GM side versus other OEMs (for example here at Ford, or even at BMW and VW) is not the same. GM leans heavily on their suppliers, and doesn't get involved in creating or specifying how the tuning functions can work. They only know what the supplier tells them, and are not given full access to the tuning variables. I'm not even sure GM (or most OEMs) know(s) how to tune things in a steering system like Pull-Drift or Steering Nibble.
My opinion is that if you need the supplier for anything, you are not the tuner, you are an approver. If you fully own the tuning and can do everything on your own with no suppler involvement then you are a tuner. GM fundamentally does not do business this way.
As an opinion, and it should be obvious here, I was not a fan of the way GM does business in this regard. I also was not a fan of Jim, specifically when I first met him and his opinions of EPS. Maybe he changed over the 5 years after he used the system, but some of his comments on MSRC in 2012 did not give me a level of confidence in his abilities to tune or understand electronic systems. Further as a trained Computer Engineer, I think that a lot of these software like tuning parameters are just out of the scope of a Mechanical Engineers knowledge, no matter the training.
In automotive, there is way too much reliance on retraining Mechanical Engineers to do the jobs of Electrical, Computer, and Software Engineers. At least in Chassis Systems (including vehicle integration and tuning work) which have been histrionically pure mechanical systems prior to the introduction of ABS. This isn't an only GM problem its an industry wide thing, and I complain about it at work everyday.
I’m sure they just love you at the office.
Wasn’t this thread set up as a congrats and thank you to Jim??
I think it's time for you to go TROLL your office at Ford. Bye!
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Crossed Flags Fan (09-14-2018)
09-10-2018, 12:34 PM
#36
Foosh, in case you missed this response to your post...
Originally Posted by Foosh
Originally Posted by Foosh
You may not be able to imagine it, but it can be better. There are a whole bunch of people who've made it better with readily available plug and play DSC MSRC controller.
Having said that, the recently upgraded calibrations are a tremendous improvement, and even the old OEM MSRC calibrations were much better than a car without.
Having said that, the recently upgraded calibrations are a tremendous improvement, and even the old OEM MSRC calibrations were much better than a car without.
09-10-2018, 12:38 PM
#37
Chance,
Do a search on DSC. There's enough material to keep you busy for quite some time.
Do a search on DSC. There's enough material to keep you busy for quite some time.
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LT1 Z51 (09-10-2018)
09-10-2018, 12:39 PM
#38
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Based on what people tell me, I'd disagree with that statement.
Kudos for you defending your friend, I'd do the same. This isn't personal, I'm sure he's a nice guy, but professionally I wasn't impressed. I'm not impressed by a lot of people in engineering. Am I perfect no, but a lot of these guys have egos the size of Mt. Everest and undeservedly so.
Kudos for you defending your friend, I'd do the same. This isn't personal, I'm sure he's a nice guy, but professionally I wasn't impressed. I'm not impressed by a lot of people in engineering. Am I perfect no, but a lot of these guys have egos the size of Mt. Everest and undeservedly so.
Last edited by LT1 Z51; 09-10-2018 at 12:42 PM.
09-10-2018, 12:42 PM
#39
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So if someone didn’t build the guitar they can’t be a guitarist?? You sound like typical arrogant software writer (Sheldon-Like), and a pissed off Ex-employee. I give much more credence to the guy driving the car around the track and making decisions on handling.
I’m sure they just love you at the office.
Wasn’t this thread set up as a congrats and thank you to Jim??
I think it's time for you to go TROLL your office at Ford. Bye!
I’m sure they just love you at the office.
Wasn’t this thread set up as a congrats and thank you to Jim??
I think it's time for you to go TROLL your office at Ford. Bye!
I made a comment that was offhand, and people took it down this rabbit hole. No one had to say anything to me, it could have just been ignored. To use a cliche quote, don't hate the player, hate the game.
Last edited by LT1 Z51; 09-10-2018 at 12:43 PM.
09-10-2018, 01:11 PM
#40
Drifting
Jim's misinformed, I was never let go of by anyone (I was actually promoted at ZFLS after leaving GM programs). If he wants to continue to say anything of that nature then I'll serve him with a slander lawsuit. Deadly serious here, you don't lie about when people have been let go from places, it's extremely unprofessional.
To set the record straight, Steve did the re-tune when they removed the rare-earth material from the EPS motor, he now works at GM having left Bosch (which is what ZFLS became). Everything I've said is my opinion of the situation, to which as you stated above Jim actually supports. The guy actually tuning the values on the laptop is the guy tuning the car, (which is exactly what he just said they did). The other guy is just providing feedback on whether or not he likes it. Jim's an approver, he's not a tuner. All GM ride and handling engineers are.
But, of course though Jim isn't going to TELL you he didn't do the work, it would hurt his ego. In my opinion, the way GM does business in terms of tuning cars isn't consistent or correct (this is why every GM car drives and feels different than every other GM car, they have no DNA). They rely too much on the supplier instead of owning the part themselves. Everyone who has worked with GM ride and handling who has any skill set and knowledge will corroborate this.
You don't have to like what I say, but its true.
To set the record straight, Steve did the re-tune when they removed the rare-earth material from the EPS motor, he now works at GM having left Bosch (which is what ZFLS became). Everything I've said is my opinion of the situation, to which as you stated above Jim actually supports. The guy actually tuning the values on the laptop is the guy tuning the car, (which is exactly what he just said they did). The other guy is just providing feedback on whether or not he likes it. Jim's an approver, he's not a tuner. All GM ride and handling engineers are.
But, of course though Jim isn't going to TELL you he didn't do the work, it would hurt his ego. In my opinion, the way GM does business in terms of tuning cars isn't consistent or correct (this is why every GM car drives and feels different than every other GM car, they have no DNA). They rely too much on the supplier instead of owning the part themselves. Everyone who has worked with GM ride and handling who has any skill set and knowledge will corroborate this.
You don't have to like what I say, but its true.
1. If you knew better, you wouldn’t choose a guy’s retirement thread to spout sour grapes. Shows a lack of corporate EQ for sure;
2. Whatever you think happened at ZF, it sounds like it was presumed or communicated to GM that whoever you are were no bueno. Sorry. Maybe it was political. Maybe not. That’s the breaks;
3. I’ve heard of Mero, no idea who you are. Who wants to be the guy writing the code ? I’d rather be Niki Lauda driving and getting name recognition for Ferrari (Gm in this case) than the mechanic. You should have learned a thing or two from Mero instead of bashing him. That explains why you are who are...
btw, good luck with a slander lawsuit where the comments were written on an anonymous blog forum. Even if allowed to go forward (which it won’t without basis), the discovery process alone would bankrupt you.
Last edited by Parcival; 09-10-2018 at 01:17 PM.
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