C7 to be the last manual Corvette?
#81
Burning Brakes
The government bureaucrats are going to drive us to a very authoritarian society. The self driving cars are being pushed by the insurance companies to reduce claims. Its a money maker for the insurance companies. Premiums keep getting paid, fewer accidents. Self driving is being touted by high tech companies like Waze, Google, Apple, Tesla. It will kill the sports cars since you won't be able to drive them. I think Jay Leno had it right when he said only the wealthy will be able to own cars that you drive and you will have to drive them at designated tracks only.
#82
Burning Brakes
I would agree with this, I have a M7 but if I had to drive auto I would rather manually shift with the gear selector lever although there will probably be times where paddle shifting would be easier. Are there any cars that shift manually with both paddles and the lever?
#83
Le Mans Master
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One can only imagine how eagerly Russian hackers and/or hackers affiliated with various terrorist groups are salivating at the prospect of hacking into automated or self-driving car networks and causing a line of 1000 of those cars to pile up on a freeway, for example. Does anybody doubt that, with enough persistence, those bad people can figure out a way to do that? Given enough time and knowledge, anything can be hacked into.
Last edited by joemessman; 09-13-2018 at 04:07 AM.
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#84
Burning Brakes
See my bold in your reply. Do you really think anyone is going to cross shop $300,000 exotics to a Corvette, now matter how good it is or how it's built? The cars that get cross shopped to the Corvettes are BMW M3/4s, Hellcats, Shelby GT350s, & ZL1 Camaros. Anything else is an outlier. Oh, and all of those cars I just mentioned are still available with manuals.
#85
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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Was searching for what shifters looked like in a DCT.
Found this very interesting video that shows one (although not in a performance car the computer logic it describes is interesting.)
It does show a shift lever much like our conventional automatic BWM X5 SUV. The BMW has steering wheel levers but also a similar shift lever to whet the car in the video uses. You can up or downshift with either. However this "What not to do with the DCT" has useful info. The C8 may use a somewhat different logic but I had wondered how it knew if it should preset in the next higher or next lower gear? He describes the logic. If the assumption its programed to use is incorrect it will just delay the lighting fast shift slightly!
Found this very interesting video that shows one (although not in a performance car the computer logic it describes is interesting.)
It does show a shift lever much like our conventional automatic BWM X5 SUV. The BMW has steering wheel levers but also a similar shift lever to whet the car in the video uses. You can up or downshift with either. However this "What not to do with the DCT" has useful info. The C8 may use a somewhat different logic but I had wondered how it knew if it should preset in the next higher or next lower gear? He describes the logic. If the assumption its programed to use is incorrect it will just delay the lighting fast shift slightly!
Last edited by JerryU; 09-13-2018 at 06:54 AM.
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VetteDrmr (09-13-2018)
#86
Le Mans Master
That was a really good intro video for someone that has no experience in a DCT/SMG vehicle; thanks!
BTW, does anyone have any knowledge about what kind of job it is to do a clutch job on a DCT system, or how long in normal use a DCT system lasts? I've only had to replace the clutch once in my '00 FRC, after 8 years of autocross and DEs (only a couple of trips to the 1/8 mile), and that was due to a failure of several the PP spring actuator pivots.
TIA, and have a good one,
Mike
BTW, does anyone have any knowledge about what kind of job it is to do a clutch job on a DCT system, or how long in normal use a DCT system lasts? I've only had to replace the clutch once in my '00 FRC, after 8 years of autocross and DEs (only a couple of trips to the 1/8 mile), and that was due to a failure of several the PP spring actuator pivots.
TIA, and have a good one,
Mike
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ptalar (09-13-2018)
#88
Race Director
The single clutch autimated manuals of the 2000 s ferrari
, lamborghini and bmw were technicially inferior to dual clutch transmissions that followed especially in daily use. The single clutch automatic manuals were clumsey around town left to their own device and the clutch wear was rapid.
the wear and cost to maintain those automated manual transmission sports cars being mentioned as having a lower residual to the manuals are nightmares to maintain...
thats why the residuals of manual transmission versions of that era are higher.
, lamborghini and bmw were technicially inferior to dual clutch transmissions that followed especially in daily use. The single clutch automatic manuals were clumsey around town left to their own device and the clutch wear was rapid.
the wear and cost to maintain those automated manual transmission sports cars being mentioned as having a lower residual to the manuals are nightmares to maintain...
thats why the residuals of manual transmission versions of that era are higher.
#89
Burning Brakes
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Maybe nobody will sell their C8 for that reason, but the question remains, how may sales will GM lose to the other brands which are still available with a manual? Several Corvette loyalist members of my local car club have informed me that they will NEVER buy a non-manual Corvette. Sadly, I think that Porsche in particular may "scoop up" the "death before driving an automatic" crowd.
#90
I sold my Jaguar F-Type after 18 months and purchased a C7 because I missed having a manual transmission. It isn't available on the V8 F-Type. The paddle-shift auto was excellent, but boring to me, and I just could not make myself love it. The car was flawless otherwise.
If the C8 is not offered as a manual, I'll go with the best sports car still offering it. In the meantime, it will likely motivate me to hold on to my C7 longer than I normally keep cars (3-4 years).
To those making the point that manuals are archaic and that we should embrace new technology, I certainly do when it serves my purpose, and when I find that technology useful and/or enjoyable. However for me, driving a sports car is about fun, and a big part of that fun is manual shifting. Sail boats are archaic too, but it's an awesome experience to enjoy mastering one.
Driverless cars will be the new wave soon, and I suppose we're all supposed to embrace that technology too. Actually having to steer and otherwise maneuver a vehicle will be an archaic concept.
Uh, no, sorry, not for me.
If the C8 is not offered as a manual, I'll go with the best sports car still offering it. In the meantime, it will likely motivate me to hold on to my C7 longer than I normally keep cars (3-4 years).
To those making the point that manuals are archaic and that we should embrace new technology, I certainly do when it serves my purpose, and when I find that technology useful and/or enjoyable. However for me, driving a sports car is about fun, and a big part of that fun is manual shifting. Sail boats are archaic too, but it's an awesome experience to enjoy mastering one.
Driverless cars will be the new wave soon, and I suppose we're all supposed to embrace that technology too. Actually having to steer and otherwise maneuver a vehicle will be an archaic concept.
Uh, no, sorry, not for me.
Last edited by Foosh; 09-13-2018 at 11:41 AM.
#91
I see your point, and while it may be generally correct, there are exceptions. For example, I recently met a wealthy local businessman who sold his Lamborghini Gallardo to buy a new Corvette ZO6. He explained that, while he could easily afford the Gallardo's $3400 oil changes (rear clip must be removed to change the oil), he was sick and tired of the Gallardo's unreliability requiring it to spend 9 months pf every year in the dealer's shop awaiting parts and repairs. He remarked that he bought a ZO6 because he wanted a car he could jump into and drive anywhere in America without an overriding fear of breaking down. He added that he believed the ZO6 was capable of racking up 150,000 miles without a re-build, unlike a Gallardo.
Last edited by ptalar; 09-13-2018 at 12:51 PM.
#92
I sold my Jaguar F-Type after 18 months and purchased a C7 because I missed having a manual transmission. It isn't available on the V8 F-Type. The paddle-shift auto was excellent, but boring to me, and I just could not make myself love it. The car was flawless otherwise.
If the C8 is not offered as a manual, I'll go with the best sports car still offering it. In the meantime, it will likely motivate me to hold on to my C7 longer than I normally keep cars (3-4 years).
To those making the point that manuals are archaic and that we should embrace new technology, I certainly do when it serves my purpose, and when I find that technology useful and/or enjoyable. However for me, driving a sports car is about fun, and a big part of that fun is manual shifting. Sail boats are archaic too, but it's an awesome experience to enjoy mastering one.
Driverless cars will be the new wave soon, and I suppose we're all supposed to embrace that technology too. Actually having to steer and otherwise maneuver a vehicle will be an archaic concept.
Uh, no, sorry, not for me.
If the C8 is not offered as a manual, I'll go with the best sports car still offering it. In the meantime, it will likely motivate me to hold on to my C7 longer than I normally keep cars (3-4 years).
To those making the point that manuals are archaic and that we should embrace new technology, I certainly do when it serves my purpose, and when I find that technology useful and/or enjoyable. However for me, driving a sports car is about fun, and a big part of that fun is manual shifting. Sail boats are archaic too, but it's an awesome experience to enjoy mastering one.
Driverless cars will be the new wave soon, and I suppose we're all supposed to embrace that technology too. Actually having to steer and otherwise maneuver a vehicle will be an archaic concept.
Uh, no, sorry, not for me.
#93
Outside of the technology/performance gap, fact of the matter is, the pro-manual crowd is small and getting smaller, because right now, the kids learning to drive just aren't getting exposed to manuals, go to a car rental place and see if they have a manual car. I get the auto-driving car argument, but the reality is, manuals are going away right now, drivable cars will still be here for probably a couple generations at least.
Even though I'm not a fan of manuals, I do feel for you guys who do like them, because they are definitely going away soon.
#94
A lot of folks talk in terms of manual sales of C7s being "only" or "down to" 20-ish%. That's still 8,000 cars a year, which is more than the number of cars (not SUVs) that Porsche sells annually in the US. I just can't see GM risking that many sales in the 2-seat sports car segment. Sure, if there's no choice, some will settle for a DCT, but a lot of die-hards like myself will not.
Last edited by Foosh; 09-13-2018 at 01:43 PM.
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#95
Heel & Toe
I suspect if the C8 kicks major *ss, a lot of manual only folks might change their mind. There aren't a ton of manual options out there for top performance cars.
#96
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The death of manuals in performance cars was caused by two things, in my opinion.
1. Europeans focusing on technology and having the "best" and "fastest" which leads you to the car shifting its self and the transmission being integrated into other systems.
2. Asia and the Middle East becoming the main drivers (and buyers) of ultra luxury products. Manual transmissions there are viewed as a poor people's item and so the rich don;t want to learn that skill.
If you think about it look at the sales of Ferrari, Lambo, Aston, and McLaren in the world region wise. Then look at the manual transmission markets in those places. Only in the US, and to a limited degree in Europe are manuals looked at as a "superior skill" product. The V10 M5 only got a manual because of the outrage the US had over the SMG. The current gen has no manual, and doesn't even have a DCT anymore.
However there is hope, the rich always want what is exclusive. Eventually manual transmissions will become "boutique" and at that point the rich will want them. But driving your own car at that point will also become "boutique" as will human interfaces (instead of machines, think how you have to pay extra to talk to a bank teller now).
1. Europeans focusing on technology and having the "best" and "fastest" which leads you to the car shifting its self and the transmission being integrated into other systems.
2. Asia and the Middle East becoming the main drivers (and buyers) of ultra luxury products. Manual transmissions there are viewed as a poor people's item and so the rich don;t want to learn that skill.
If you think about it look at the sales of Ferrari, Lambo, Aston, and McLaren in the world region wise. Then look at the manual transmission markets in those places. Only in the US, and to a limited degree in Europe are manuals looked at as a "superior skill" product. The V10 M5 only got a manual because of the outrage the US had over the SMG. The current gen has no manual, and doesn't even have a DCT anymore.
However there is hope, the rich always want what is exclusive. Eventually manual transmissions will become "boutique" and at that point the rich will want them. But driving your own car at that point will also become "boutique" as will human interfaces (instead of machines, think how you have to pay extra to talk to a bank teller now).
#97
Burning Brakes
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A lot of folks talk in terms of manual sales of C7s being "only" or "down to" 20-ish%. That's still 8,000 cars a year, which is more than the number of cars (not SUVs) that Porsche sells annually in the US. I just can't see GM risking that many sales in the 2-seat sports car segment. Sure, if there's no choice, some will settle for a DCT, but a lot of die-hards like myself will not.
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Foosh (09-14-2018)
#98
A lot of folks talk in terms of manual sales of C7s being "only" or "down to" 20-ish%. That's still 8,000 cars a year, which is more than the number of cars (not SUVs) that Porsche sells annually in the US. I just can't see GM risking that many sales in the 2-seat sports car segment. Sure, if there's no choice, some will settle for a DCT, but a lot of die-hards like myself will not.
#99
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#100
Burning Brakes
Don't autos already do that? Nobody is arguing that autos aren't "faster." After all, all you have to do is mash down the gas pedal and steer straight. It's not rocket science. There's nothing else for you to do.It's just one more step to a self-driving car. Then you can just sit in the car and enjoy the ride like you would on a bus or a train. Both may "kick ***," but is that really the point?
You either love the driving engagement of a manual or don't. I respect that but it will be a sad day when there is no manual transmission in a sports car like the Corvette. If it is a financial issue then they should just flip the sales model and instead of charging extra for the auto, make the auto standard and then charge for the manual for those enthusiasts that prefer it.