C7 engine blew up
01-01-2019, 11:19 PM
#1
C7 engine blew up
Hi. This is Rakesh and this my first post.
I bought a 2015 Corvette z51 3LT on Dec 28th 2017 from a chevy dealership. Within 2 days I found an issue when the engine shifts from v4-v8, the car vibrates with a clicking sound. I dropped the car at a chevy service center close by (not the one where i bought the car from) in the first week of January. They repaired the car under warranty (I think drivetrain warranty).
In November 2018 I felt like the issue is back but it was not as bad as when I bought it. I was planning to take it to the service center again. But when I was driving it on the highway at 75-80 speed, I heard some engine noise and immediately pulled over to the shoulder. The engine oil completely leaked. I got the car towed to the same service center that fixed the issue in January. They told me that the engine is damaged and they sent the data from the performance data recorder to GM.
GM replied back saying that the engine has been tuned and the codes do not match the factory codes (Not sure what exactly those codes means) hence it cannot be fixed under warranty. They put a block on my warranty and the service center asked me to pay for the $20k repair. I have no clue what tuning is, and told the same to service center that I have not done it. They said the previous owner might have done it and the dealership who sold the car might not have checked it. The service center guy even told me that dealerships don't do that check before selling the car.
I contacted GM customer care and they said since there is a warranty block on the car, they cannot help me. They asked me to contact the dealership and find out if they are willing to fix the car.
I have called the dealership and left a voicemail to the dealer who sold me the car. I will drive there tomorrow.
My question is: If the dealership denies to fix it, what are my options. Should I hire a lawyer? Do I have enough info to go against the dealership ?
Thanks in advance for your help.
-Rakesh
I bought a 2015 Corvette z51 3LT on Dec 28th 2017 from a chevy dealership. Within 2 days I found an issue when the engine shifts from v4-v8, the car vibrates with a clicking sound. I dropped the car at a chevy service center close by (not the one where i bought the car from) in the first week of January. They repaired the car under warranty (I think drivetrain warranty).
In November 2018 I felt like the issue is back but it was not as bad as when I bought it. I was planning to take it to the service center again. But when I was driving it on the highway at 75-80 speed, I heard some engine noise and immediately pulled over to the shoulder. The engine oil completely leaked. I got the car towed to the same service center that fixed the issue in January. They told me that the engine is damaged and they sent the data from the performance data recorder to GM.
GM replied back saying that the engine has been tuned and the codes do not match the factory codes (Not sure what exactly those codes means) hence it cannot be fixed under warranty. They put a block on my warranty and the service center asked me to pay for the $20k repair. I have no clue what tuning is, and told the same to service center that I have not done it. They said the previous owner might have done it and the dealership who sold the car might not have checked it. The service center guy even told me that dealerships don't do that check before selling the car.
I contacted GM customer care and they said since there is a warranty block on the car, they cannot help me. They asked me to contact the dealership and find out if they are willing to fix the car.
I have called the dealership and left a voicemail to the dealer who sold me the car. I will drive there tomorrow.
My question is: If the dealership denies to fix it, what are my options. Should I hire a lawyer? Do I have enough info to go against the dealership ?
Thanks in advance for your help.
-Rakesh
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Popular Reply
01-02-2019, 11:13 AM
Every dealer in the U.S. is required to attach a Buyers Guide to any used vehicle for sale on their lot. This form has three information blocks for the dealer to check regarding warranty. It has a dealer's warranty area that describes the basic warranty terms offered or not, a box for sold As-Is, and a box to check if it has a remainder of factory warranty. It can be sold as-is but still be represented to have remaining factory warranty that the dealer is not a party too.
When the sale is consummated, the buyer should sign the form and is given a copy. The dealer is to retain a copy in the deal jacket for future inspection. If in fact the dealer stated on this form the car had remaining factory warranty and for any reason it does not, the dealer is responsible and mis-represented the vehicle for sale. The dealer would need to prove the buyer modified the car after purchase or they are responsible. Ignorance would not be a defense in this case as they are considered to be an "expert" in this business.
The OP needs to present the car to the selling dealer, if these facts are accurate, and demand the vehicle be bought back for all invested sums. Should the dealer refuse, the buyer needs to retain a consumer attorney in their area with experience in this field of practice. As a retired dealer, I think the selling dealer is going to find quickly the easiest way out is to repurchase and move on. The courts may not be very understanding of such a flagrant violation of mis-representation.
When the sale is consummated, the buyer should sign the form and is given a copy. The dealer is to retain a copy in the deal jacket for future inspection. If in fact the dealer stated on this form the car had remaining factory warranty and for any reason it does not, the dealer is responsible and mis-represented the vehicle for sale. The dealer would need to prove the buyer modified the car after purchase or they are responsible. Ignorance would not be a defense in this case as they are considered to be an "expert" in this business.
The OP needs to present the car to the selling dealer, if these facts are accurate, and demand the vehicle be bought back for all invested sums. Should the dealer refuse, the buyer needs to retain a consumer attorney in their area with experience in this field of practice. As a retired dealer, I think the selling dealer is going to find quickly the easiest way out is to repurchase and move on. The courts may not be very understanding of such a flagrant violation of mis-representation.
01-02-2019, 02:04 AM
#2
Le Mans Master
So sorry you got caught up in this.
The problem from GM’s point of view, is that changes to the ECU tuning all have a potentially negative impact on reliability. Leaner fuel maps mean more power, but are far more vulnerable to a bad tank of gas or higher air temperatures. Tuned improperly, can cause serious engine damage. Advanced timing can mean more power, but also a higher chance of potential detonation. Should this detonation occur, the knock sensor may not be able pull out enough timing to protect the engine. In the case of a higher redline, the engine may very well be capable of performing at a higher engine speed. Though this also means higher levels of wear and a far higher risk of catastrophic engine failure. All these potential risks mean serious engine damage, and this is why tuning voids a car’s power train warranty. In fact, all car manufacturers will void the power train warranty if they discover a car has been tuned.
You should contact the dealer you purchased the car from but I doubt they take the hit. They will likely claim it was done after they sold the car because they will not want to folk out $20,000. You could contact a lawyer but that will likely just cost you more money and it will be very difficult if not impossible to prove the dealer knew the car was tuned when they sold it to you.
The problem from GM’s point of view, is that changes to the ECU tuning all have a potentially negative impact on reliability. Leaner fuel maps mean more power, but are far more vulnerable to a bad tank of gas or higher air temperatures. Tuned improperly, can cause serious engine damage. Advanced timing can mean more power, but also a higher chance of potential detonation. Should this detonation occur, the knock sensor may not be able pull out enough timing to protect the engine. In the case of a higher redline, the engine may very well be capable of performing at a higher engine speed. Though this also means higher levels of wear and a far higher risk of catastrophic engine failure. All these potential risks mean serious engine damage, and this is why tuning voids a car’s power train warranty. In fact, all car manufacturers will void the power train warranty if they discover a car has been tuned.
You should contact the dealer you purchased the car from but I doubt they take the hit. They will likely claim it was done after they sold the car because they will not want to folk out $20,000. You could contact a lawyer but that will likely just cost you more money and it will be very difficult if not impossible to prove the dealer knew the car was tuned when they sold it to you.
Last edited by Maxie2U; 01-02-2019 at 02:05 AM.
01-02-2019, 02:12 AM
#3
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
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Your only option is to talk to the selling dealer. They obviously took a modded car in on trade and didn't know it was modded or conveniently forgot to tell you. You may never get satisfaction but it doesn't hurt to talk to them. Whatever you do don't get nasty until they have a chance to be magnanimous.
Bill
Bill
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01-02-2019, 05:04 AM
#4
Sorry to hear about this, If it was sold "as is" you are pretty much SOL.... I am sure the engine can be rebuilt, is there a shop near you that you could take it to? I would not let the dealership do it....
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01-02-2019, 05:07 AM
#5
Racer
The guy who buys the car from the auction should have checked the car before putting for sale. If it was a trade in, the mechanics should have checked for a tune before taking it in on trade, since a car without a warranty is worth less.
Good luck.
Ps: I thought an engine replacement was $10K, not $20.
Last edited by LarryFL; 01-02-2019 at 05:08 AM.
01-02-2019, 06:19 AM
#6
Drifting
I agree you should have it brought to the selling dealer. Your original post indicates the engine failure was due to lack of oil. If this was a sudden failure in the dry sump Z51, wouldn’t this be something unrelated to the tune? Worth more information on the true source of engine failure.
01-02-2019, 08:50 AM
#7
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 1999
Location: Phila PA, Bonita Springs FL
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Ask for a print out of the GDS2.
The GDS2 (Global Diagnostic System) shows how many times the computer (PCM) was accessed, and the corresponding codes (CVN's).
If in fact you did NOT tune the car, this lies completely with the selling dealer....unless again as others have stated, you purchased it "as is"...
GM put a warranty block on your car, you are entitled to this information and can go from there.
The GDS2 (Global Diagnostic System) shows how many times the computer (PCM) was accessed, and the corresponding codes (CVN's).
If in fact you did NOT tune the car, this lies completely with the selling dealer....unless again as others have stated, you purchased it "as is"...
GM put a warranty block on your car, you are entitled to this information and can go from there.
Last edited by YO-EL; 01-02-2019 at 08:52 AM.
01-02-2019, 09:12 AM
#8
You were caught in the trap of why you don't buy a used performance car (or a diesel pickup) unless it has been checked by a brand affiliated dealer using the same protocol they have to follow to get approval for warranty service.
The selling dealer should have checked before selling but consumer protection isn't what it used to be and unfortunately it is up to the customer to make sure that this is done prior to purchasing a used vehicle. Unfortunately you are at the mercy of the dealer who sold you the car. The federal laws governing vehicle warranties for pre-owned vehicles have a big hole in them because there is nothing to protect the consumer against what happened to you. Most of the people on this site have been around performance cars for some time and understand the issues of tuning but that is not true of the average car buyer who can end up getting stuck with a large repair bill.
If the selling dealer isn't willing to make good on this your best bet is an independent shop and a reman motor or one that has been pulled from a low miles wrecked C7. I don't think there is much advantage in getting a GM dealer to do the work because once a warranty is blocked even putting in a new engine won't unblock it because the rest of the powertrain was also subjected to the additional stresses from an unknown tune.
GM is making it very difficult and expensive to tune engines with their newest ECMs and other manufacturers will follow suit both because of the type of issue you suffered and the issues of EPA regulation and fines. It won't stop tuning but it will cost enough that finding used cars with a tune will be far less likely in the near future.
The selling dealer should have checked before selling but consumer protection isn't what it used to be and unfortunately it is up to the customer to make sure that this is done prior to purchasing a used vehicle. Unfortunately you are at the mercy of the dealer who sold you the car. The federal laws governing vehicle warranties for pre-owned vehicles have a big hole in them because there is nothing to protect the consumer against what happened to you. Most of the people on this site have been around performance cars for some time and understand the issues of tuning but that is not true of the average car buyer who can end up getting stuck with a large repair bill.
If the selling dealer isn't willing to make good on this your best bet is an independent shop and a reman motor or one that has been pulled from a low miles wrecked C7. I don't think there is much advantage in getting a GM dealer to do the work because once a warranty is blocked even putting in a new engine won't unblock it because the rest of the powertrain was also subjected to the additional stresses from an unknown tune.
GM is making it very difficult and expensive to tune engines with their newest ECMs and other manufacturers will follow suit both because of the type of issue you suffered and the issues of EPA regulation and fines. It won't stop tuning but it will cost enough that finding used cars with a tune will be far less likely in the near future.
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01-02-2019, 10:18 AM
#9
Le Mans Master
You could contact consumer protection in your state for options. IMO your out of luck. 30-90 days is as much as I have heard of. Most refer to factory warranties beyond that.
Manufacturers have had issues with tuning for decades. Diesels really got them looking, there was alot of How to "hot rod" and double the power. Then there was a jump blown engine claims, PCM would be analyzed to see what was altered. Eventually GM hired computer forensic experts to look in to how detect tuning including " burn away" or temporary tunes that last a short period time then self erase.
Manufacturers have had issues with tuning for decades. Diesels really got them looking, there was alot of How to "hot rod" and double the power. Then there was a jump blown engine claims, PCM would be analyzed to see what was altered. Eventually GM hired computer forensic experts to look in to how detect tuning including " burn away" or temporary tunes that last a short period time then self erase.
01-02-2019, 10:29 AM
#10
The selling dealer repaired the car under warranty the 1st time, so there has to be some responsibility on them if they didn't know, or release that it was tuned.
But yeah, they aren't gonna help now anyway.
But yeah, they aren't gonna help now anyway.
01-02-2019, 10:37 AM
#11
Race Director
First, sorry this happened to you. Under the circumstances it's no less than rape IMO.
Isn't the first time this has been reported here, FWIW.
Time to check for tunes is when dealer acquires it in trade or from auction.
Period.
'Certified' and/or drivetrain warranty's useless otherwise, unbeknownst to buyers.
Bought under false pretenses & now liable for everything leaves buyers holding the bag, while GM just shrugs?
Might be worth a few $ for a sit-down w/ a lawyer to find out what can/can't be reasonably done.
Of course no lawyer until AFTER speaking w/ selling dealer.
Until tuning's 'certified stock' it'll happen more & more as C7 ages until warranties have expired.
Isn't the first time this has been reported here, FWIW.
Time to check for tunes is when dealer acquires it in trade or from auction.
Period.
'Certified' and/or drivetrain warranty's useless otherwise, unbeknownst to buyers.
Bought under false pretenses & now liable for everything leaves buyers holding the bag, while GM just shrugs?
Might be worth a few $ for a sit-down w/ a lawyer to find out what can/can't be reasonably done.
Of course no lawyer until AFTER speaking w/ selling dealer.
Until tuning's 'certified stock' it'll happen more & more as C7 ages until warranties have expired.
Last edited by Landru; 01-02-2019 at 10:37 AM.
01-02-2019, 10:43 AM
#12
Drifting
Why wasn't the tune detected during the first warranty repair? It would seem to me that it should be relatively easy to time and date stamp such changes.
It would seem to me that it should be relatively easy to time and date stamp such changes.
Last edited by RIC96; 01-02-2019 at 10:46 AM.
01-02-2019, 11:13 AM
#14
Every dealer in the U.S. is required to attach a Buyers Guide to any used vehicle for sale on their lot. This form has three information blocks for the dealer to check regarding warranty. It has a dealer's warranty area that describes the basic warranty terms offered or not, a box for sold As-Is, and a box to check if it has a remainder of factory warranty. It can be sold as-is but still be represented to have remaining factory warranty that the dealer is not a party too.
When the sale is consummated, the buyer should sign the form and is given a copy. The dealer is to retain a copy in the deal jacket for future inspection. If in fact the dealer stated on this form the car had remaining factory warranty and for any reason it does not, the dealer is responsible and mis-represented the vehicle for sale. The dealer would need to prove the buyer modified the car after purchase or they are responsible. Ignorance would not be a defense in this case as they are considered to be an "expert" in this business.
The OP needs to present the car to the selling dealer, if these facts are accurate, and demand the vehicle be bought back for all invested sums. Should the dealer refuse, the buyer needs to retain a consumer attorney in their area with experience in this field of practice. As a retired dealer, I think the selling dealer is going to find quickly the easiest way out is to repurchase and move on. The courts may not be very understanding of such a flagrant violation of mis-representation.
When the sale is consummated, the buyer should sign the form and is given a copy. The dealer is to retain a copy in the deal jacket for future inspection. If in fact the dealer stated on this form the car had remaining factory warranty and for any reason it does not, the dealer is responsible and mis-represented the vehicle for sale. The dealer would need to prove the buyer modified the car after purchase or they are responsible. Ignorance would not be a defense in this case as they are considered to be an "expert" in this business.
The OP needs to present the car to the selling dealer, if these facts are accurate, and demand the vehicle be bought back for all invested sums. Should the dealer refuse, the buyer needs to retain a consumer attorney in their area with experience in this field of practice. As a retired dealer, I think the selling dealer is going to find quickly the easiest way out is to repurchase and move on. The courts may not be very understanding of such a flagrant violation of mis-representation.
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01-02-2019, 01:40 PM
#15
Le Mans Master
Call this guy's lawyer. He got almost $6M in compensation for a not-that-broken Ferrari F430.
http://www.thedrive.com/news/25733/a...ari-f430-buyer
http://www.thedrive.com/news/25733/a...ari-f430-buyer
01-02-2019, 01:42 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
Every dealer in the U.S. is required to attach a Buyers Guide to any used vehicle for sale on their lot. This form has three information blocks for the dealer to check regarding warranty. It has a dealer's warranty area that describes the basic warranty terms offered or not, a box for sold As-Is, and a box to check if it has a remainder of factory warranty. It can be sold as-is but still be represented to have remaining factory warranty that the dealer is not a party too.
When the sale is consummated, the buyer should sign the form and is given a copy. The dealer is to retain a copy in the deal jacket for future inspection. If in fact the dealer stated on this form the car had remaining factory warranty and for any reason it does not, the dealer is responsible and mis-represented the vehicle for sale. The dealer would need to prove the buyer modified the car after purchase or they are responsible. Ignorance would not be a defense in this case as they are considered to be an "expert" in this business.
The OP needs to present the car to the selling dealer, if these facts are accurate, and demand the vehicle be bought back for all invested sums. Should the dealer refuse, the buyer needs to retain a consumer attorney in their area with experience in this field of practice. As a retired dealer, I think the selling dealer is going to find quickly the easiest way out is to repurchase and move on. The courts may not be very understanding of such a flagrant violation of mis-representation.
When the sale is consummated, the buyer should sign the form and is given a copy. The dealer is to retain a copy in the deal jacket for future inspection. If in fact the dealer stated on this form the car had remaining factory warranty and for any reason it does not, the dealer is responsible and mis-represented the vehicle for sale. The dealer would need to prove the buyer modified the car after purchase or they are responsible. Ignorance would not be a defense in this case as they are considered to be an "expert" in this business.
The OP needs to present the car to the selling dealer, if these facts are accurate, and demand the vehicle be bought back for all invested sums. Should the dealer refuse, the buyer needs to retain a consumer attorney in their area with experience in this field of practice. As a retired dealer, I think the selling dealer is going to find quickly the easiest way out is to repurchase and move on. The courts may not be very understanding of such a flagrant violation of mis-representation.
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01-02-2019, 01:45 PM
#17
Could be the tune but it could be something else such as insufficient oil supply. I looked at a 2019 loaded 3LZ M7 Z06 Vert - gorgeous inside and out with just under 9K miles at a non Chevy auto resale place. First thing I do is open the hood and pull out the dipstick - is there minimum oil and is it brown and not black? What's the service record? They had a Carfax document that didn't show any servicing but showed other activity. So I don't think the car had the 500 mile change or any. Why? The oil was barely at the bottom tip of the dipstick and it was black (way below minimum oil level). I double checked the owners manual that happened to be in the glove compartment to see if I was following the factory procedure for checking the oil. Yup. What a shame. I did this in front of the salesperson who said the car was "certified" through their service dept. This "certification" is not anything like what Chevy does and they put a warranty behind it; this one didn't. I badly wanted to get this car but walked away. You would have been easily protected if your used Vette was certified through Chevrolet. It wouldn't have been certified through Chevy with a tune in it and no good service records. I know this doesn't help you now but going forward it may and for others.
Edit: As pointed later down below, I went back over the owner manual section and indeed I was looking at the wrong section; my apologies. This was for the non-dry sump LT1s/LT4s (ZL1?). The section below this was for the dry sump motors which I missed the first time. Indeed, it says to check it 5-10 minutes after shutoff.
Edit: As pointed later down below, I went back over the owner manual section and indeed I was looking at the wrong section; my apologies. This was for the non-dry sump LT1s/LT4s (ZL1?). The section below this was for the dry sump motors which I missed the first time. Indeed, it says to check it 5-10 minutes after shutoff.
Last edited by billiam01; 01-07-2019 at 12:30 PM. Reason: info correction
01-02-2019, 01:48 PM
#18
Moderator
Every dealer in the U.S. is required to attach a Buyers Guide to any used vehicle for sale on their lot. This form has three information blocks for the dealer to check regarding warranty. It has a dealer's warranty area that describes the basic warranty terms offered or not, a box for sold As-Is, and a box to check if it has a remainder of factory warranty. It can be sold as-is but still be represented to have remaining factory warranty that the dealer is not a party too.
When the sale is consummated, the buyer should sign the form and is given a copy. The dealer is to retain a copy in the deal jacket for future inspection. If in fact the dealer stated on this form the car had remaining factory warranty and for any reason it does not, the dealer is responsible and mis-represented the vehicle for sale. The dealer would need to prove the buyer modified the car after purchase or they are responsible. Ignorance would not be a defense in this case as they are considered to be an "expert" in this business.
The OP needs to present the car to the selling dealer, if these facts are accurate, and demand the vehicle be bought back for all invested sums. Should the dealer refuse, the buyer needs to retain a consumer attorney in their area with experience in this field of practice. As a retired dealer, I think the selling dealer is going to find quickly the easiest way out is to repurchase and move on. The courts may not be very understanding of such a flagrant violation of mis-representation.
When the sale is consummated, the buyer should sign the form and is given a copy. The dealer is to retain a copy in the deal jacket for future inspection. If in fact the dealer stated on this form the car had remaining factory warranty and for any reason it does not, the dealer is responsible and mis-represented the vehicle for sale. The dealer would need to prove the buyer modified the car after purchase or they are responsible. Ignorance would not be a defense in this case as they are considered to be an "expert" in this business.
The OP needs to present the car to the selling dealer, if these facts are accurate, and demand the vehicle be bought back for all invested sums. Should the dealer refuse, the buyer needs to retain a consumer attorney in their area with experience in this field of practice. As a retired dealer, I think the selling dealer is going to find quickly the easiest way out is to repurchase and move on. The courts may not be very understanding of such a flagrant violation of mis-representation.
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01-02-2019, 02:04 PM
#19
Drifting
Could be the tune but it could be something else such as insufficient oil supply. I looked at a 2019 loaded 3LZ M7 Z06 Vert - gorgeous inside and out with just under 9K miles at a non Chevy auto resale place. First thing I do is open the hood and pull out the dipstick - is there minimum oil and is it brown and not black? What's the service record? They had a Carfax document that didn't show any servicing but showed other activity. So I don't think the car had the 500 mile change or any. Why? The oil was barely at the bottom tip of the dipstick and it was black (way below minimum oil level). I double checked the owners manual that happened to be in the glove compartment to see if I was following the factory procedure for checking the oil. Yup. What a shame. I did this in front of the salesperson who said the car was "certified" through their service dept. This "certification" is not anything like what Chevy does and they put a warranty behind it; this one didn't. I badly wanted to get this car but walked away. You would have been easily protected if your used Vette was certified through Chevrolet. It wouldn't have been certified through Chevy with a tune in it and no good service records. I know this doesn't help you now but going forward it may and for others.
Last edited by Jmhornz71; 01-02-2019 at 02:13 PM.
01-02-2019, 02:04 PM
#20
Pro
I'm not a lawyer and will not pretend to be a legal expert but I have a question for you. Does your paperwork for the sale when you bought the car or was the car advertised as a, "Certified Pre-owned car"? If it was and you didn't change the computer settings you have a case that could include attorney's fees for a court filing if you win. The dealer can say to you, you need to prove that you didn't upgrade the computer to a high performance setting/s. Which is impossible to prove but they can't prove that you did and can they show a computer printout that has your car's VIN scanned in that shows the stock settings? So the dealer that you took the car to, to do the transmission work, did they tell you that the settings were changed? That may have been a part of fixing the transmission was to check if any performance settings had been installed because that could have effected the transmission. That dealership that fixed the transmission knew you just bought the car because it's in the VIN code on whats been done. Me thinks, you have an issue with both dealers and any decent lawyer that does this type of law would be the way to go. Do not go to any other lawyer but one that does everything but auto law and I'm not talking Lemmon Laws.
You should buy yourself 1 to 2 hours of an attorney's time and take everything you have with you. Keep it short and sweet and let him ask you questions after you give him a run down like you said here to the members. Asking us is fine but you need an attorney in your state and try to make sure the attorney has zero connection to the dealership. If you live in a small city, look at the next city over for your attorney. Good luck and I wish you the best outcome. You may need to get your car out of the dealership and stash it in your garage for the time being.
You should buy yourself 1 to 2 hours of an attorney's time and take everything you have with you. Keep it short and sweet and let him ask you questions after you give him a run down like you said here to the members. Asking us is fine but you need an attorney in your state and try to make sure the attorney has zero connection to the dealership. If you live in a small city, look at the next city over for your attorney. Good luck and I wish you the best outcome. You may need to get your car out of the dealership and stash it in your garage for the time being.
Last edited by Idaho Mark; 01-02-2019 at 02:07 PM.