C7 General Discussion General C7 Corvette Discussion not covered in Tech
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Why all the rants about too much power?

 
Old 01-10-2019, 11:56 PM
  #221  
owc6
CF Senior Member
 
owc6's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2013
Location: Broomes Island, MD
Posts: 15,401
Liked 2,476 Times in 1,729 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Stavesacre21 View Post
Some like vanilla, some like chocolate. Some like 460, some like 755. In both instances...different folks, different strokes.

There is NOT a wrong answer. Whatever makes YOU happy. Who cares what anyone else thinks?
Hey!

Have you not been paying attention? EVERY answer is wrong.

Every single person's opinion is wrong. That's what makes this kind of thread so fascinating . Or at least clickable.


owc6 is offline  
The following users liked this post: owc6
Stavesacre21 (01-16-2019)
Old 01-11-2019, 12:14 AM
  #222  
saleen556
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Member Since: May 2010
Posts: 2,093
Liked 498 Times in 354 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by owc6 View Post
Hey!

Have you not been paying attention? EVERY answer is wrong.

Every single person's opinion is wrong. That's what makes this kind of thread so fascinating . Or at least clickable.

I still canít believe how long this went. As said Iím still just trying to understand how the Z06 and ZR1are just for bragging rights😄. In the end they are all great cars. Iím aware we all have different tastes as I donít care for the looks of the ZR1. But Iíd be fine with the LT5 under my hood.
saleen556 is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 01:50 AM
  #223  
desibaba
CF Senior Member
 
desibaba's Avatar
 
Member Since: Aug 2011
Location: Ft Lauderdale Florida
Posts: 875
Liked 138 Times in 87 Posts
Default

As a guy who currently OWNS a 18 z06 2lz auto I have to admit the rants are true AF. I cant floor the gas pedal anytime unless I am well over 50mph here in hot south florida simply because it doesn't stick. Look at the 0-60 and drag strip times between the zr1 and the z06. Not much different. Instead of putting in more and more horsepower these manufacturers need to focus on AWD, Mid Engine and stickier tires. The truth is right here. Video starts at 2:50. Yes I know someone will post the Huracan costs way more but guess what. The Rice Cooking Nissan GTR kicks the z06/zr1 just as bad.

desibaba is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:47 AM
  #224  
AT T 2D
CF Senior Member
 
AT T 2D's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2001
Location: NC
Posts: 666
Liked 13 Times in 8 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by desibaba View Post
As a guy who currently OWNS a 18 z06 2lz auto I have to admit the rants are true AF. I cant floor the gas pedal anytime unless I am well over 50mph here in hot south florida simply because it doesn't stick.....
I switched over to the all season tires last weekend and it sure took care of that traction problem in the cold weather with my 2019 Z06. I can hit full throttle from about a 15 MPH roll and it just hooks and goes.....

Last edited by AT T 2D; 01-11-2019 at 06:49 AM.
AT T 2D is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:49 AM
  #225  
Spaceme1117
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: May 2016
Posts: 831
Liked 147 Times in 107 Posts
Default

The ZR1 does not have too much power; there is no such thing. I would love to have a car that can break the wheels loose in 4th gear. It is utterly impractical and ludicrous but it is freaking awesome.

My main nit pick with the ZR1 is that it has become a little bloated and too complex. The car has so much power and can go so fast, it has 13 different radiators to control all that heat and tips the scales at 3,560 lbs. That is still very light but considering my 2002 Z06 only weight a little over 3100 lbs, I think the design of the ZR1 is getting away from its identity; lightweight, affordable, performance car.

Still, I would love to have one.


Last edited by Spaceme1117; 01-11-2019 at 07:53 AM.
Spaceme1117 is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 07:40 AM
  #226  
V Vette
CF Senior Member
 
V Vette's Avatar
 
Member Since: Feb 2005
Location: Cape Coral, Fl
Posts: 4,917
Liked 203 Times in 157 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by desibaba View Post
As a guy who currently OWNS a 18 z06 2lz auto I have to admit the rants are true AF. I cant floor the gas pedal anytime unless I am well over 50mph here in hot south florida simply because it doesn't stick. Look at the 0-60 and drag strip times between the zr1 and the z06. Not much different. Instead of putting in more and more horsepower these manufacturers need to focus on AWD, Mid Engine and stickier tires. The truth is right here. Video starts at 2:50. Yes I know someone will post the Huracan costs way more but guess what. The Rice Cooking Nissan GTR kicks the z06/zr1 just as bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OLQclUav-M&t=260s
Years away from Italian design/ engineering.. Why even post this?

Last edited by V Vette; 01-11-2019 at 07:43 AM.
V Vette is online now  
Old 01-11-2019, 09:59 AM
  #227  
ZZ06
CF Senior Member
 
ZZ06's Avatar
 
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: Clovis New Mexico
Posts: 1,629
Liked 42 Times in 40 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by joemessman View Post
I totally regret buying a 460 HP rig. I should have bought the Z06. My son has a Z06. He left it with me for two months and told me to drive it. I did to the tune of about 2,500 miles. Now I want to throw rocks at my Stingray. It's not just the HP. The torque feels so good. And another thing. You can pass other cars significantly faster with that extra 190 HP. A lot safer.
When said throw rocks, I burst out loud with laughter. This is the reason I want a C7Z one day because coming from my mild stroked C5Z, 460hp wont cut it.
ZZ06 is offline  
The following users liked this post: ZZ06
joemessman (01-11-2019)
Old 01-11-2019, 10:06 AM
  #228  
Patman
CF Senior Member
 
Patman's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2001
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 13,934
Liked 1,345 Times in 855 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by RegnaR View Post
you might be the first person that i have heard that likes the narrowbody over the wide body


You haven't been reading this forum enough then, as there are many of us who have expressed that we prefer the looks of the narrow body, in fact a few of us might have even mentioned it earlier in this very thread.
Patman is online now  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:27 AM
  #229  
joemessman
CF Senior Member
 
joemessman's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2015
Location: Lake Havasu City Arizona
Posts: 4,463
Liked 1,423 Times in 954 Posts
Default

^^^ And I am one of the narrow body fans. But even at that. 3.5 inches? I don't have to have side skirts to protect it. I don't like them. I have 87,000 miles on my Stingray and no rock chips on the sides driving without skirts. The only place with chips is on that plastic protection in front of the rear wheels. I replaced them easily one time and nothing went through to the paint as far as chips upon examination.
joemessman is online now  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:35 AM
  #230  
kennyjames21
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jan 2018
Posts: 698
Liked 247 Times in 166 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by saleen556 View Post


LOL. Yes it went far longer than I expected. I was just trying to understand why a Z06 and ZR1 were for bragging rights. If that was the case Iíd have kept my M3. It was just as fast on the street as the Stingray and GS plus far more practical 😄
Thats a bad comparison. The m3 might be similar performance wise, but looks vastly different than the C7. The m3 could be twice as fast as my C7 and I still wouldn't want one because it's not nearly as sexy looking as the C7 (granted, how a car looks is opinion but I can't imagine anyone claiming an m3 looks as striking as a c7...). If acceleration was my main desire there are a lot of other cars I could buy that are faster, but nothing looks as good as a corvette imo, so I have zero interest. The base C7, GS, Z06 and ZR1 all look almost identical, so the only real difference is horsepower and top end performance, and that difference in performance is very difficult to use, and very rarely needed, on the street, so 99.9% of the time, that extra hp is for bragging rights. If I smash the pedal on my GS, the tires break loose with traction control on...

Again, we're talking about street use - on the track or for drag racing, of course you'd want more HP and torque, but on the street, what the base C7 gives you is more than enough 99.9% of the time. Can you name some situations where you are driving on a public road where you would feel 460hp isn't enough for what you are doing?

Regardless, I think this thread has proven your claim that people are 'ranting' is simply wrong, as we've had a rather long discussion on the topic with a very rational argument to support the idea.
kennyjames21 is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:38 AM
  #231  
falcon5619
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: FL
Posts: 953
Liked 207 Times in 147 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Patman View Post
I have to disagree with you there. The LT4 makes 200 more foot pounds of torque than the LT1, you are definitely going to feel that!! At any rpm and any throttle position, it's going to be more responsive and feel more powerful than the LT1, without a doubt. To get the same level of acceleration of an LT4 at 25% throttle, you'd probably have to be at 50% throttle or greater in the LT1 (this is just a rough example, but it's just another way of illustrating my point)

Torque just "feels good", that's why the L98 Corvettes felt so much faster than they really were, because they made a lot of torque down low, so the instant you touched the gas things started happening.
Agreed but in the M7 equipped cars you should also factor in the gearing differences between the Z06 and Stingray/GS. The Z has much taller gearing to deal with the additional torque. One of the reasons I chose my GS over the Z06 is for the different driving dynamics on the street. In the GS with its shorter gearing it still feels very strong down low but with the GS 335 rear tires you can actually hook and use all the power. The shorter gearing also lets you wind out the gears on the street a little more than you can in the Z. 1st gear in Z gets you to 66mph and if you wind out 2nd in the Z you are staring at 93mph. So, it depends where you drive and what you prefer. Some owners like to be able to wind out the gears a bit more so the Z51/GS power delivery is more appropriate. If you want even more stump pulling power at the cost of limiting how much you can wind it out then the Z power delivery may be a better fit.

Like other folks have mentioned in the thread, with these supercharged engines I think we are passed the limits of the rear wheel drive and tire tech. In order to make use of so much power and torque AWD is really a requirement at this point. Rather than more power, I would like to see weight savings, improved transmissions, better tech, etc.

Last edited by falcon5619; 01-11-2019 at 10:39 AM.
falcon5619 is online now  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:40 AM
  #232  
ptalar
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Feb 2018
Posts: 178
Liked 40 Times in 28 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by desibaba View Post
As a guy who currently OWNS a 18 z06 2lz auto I have to admit the rants are true AF. I cant floor the gas pedal anytime unless I am well over 50mph here in hot south florida simply because it doesn't stick. Look at the 0-60 and drag strip times between the zr1 and the z06. Not much different. Instead of putting in more and more horsepower these manufacturers need to focus on AWD, Mid Engine and stickier tires. The truth is right here. Video starts at 2:50. Yes I know someone will post the Huracan costs way more but guess what. The Rice Cooking Nissan GTR kicks the z06/zr1 just as bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OLQclUav-M&t=260s
Good video. This just shows it is not all about hp. I would of thought the Lambo would weigh about 1000 lbs less than than the ZR1 but they are about the same weight. It is hard for me to believe AWD, stickier tires and mid engine make the difference. The vette was not burning rubber in the video. I am suspecting driver competence is playing into this also. I always thought the Vette design was an affordability compromise with the chassis and wheels being aluminum and the body being plastic. A lot of the high end manufacturers are using graphite epoxy composite to make those parts and it makes a big weight difference. Obviously the huracane does not have a composite structure to weigh the same as the vette.

Last edited by ptalar; 01-11-2019 at 10:44 AM.
ptalar is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:41 AM
  #233  
RedBaroness
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: May 2018
Posts: 165
Liked 70 Times in 44 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Sconn View Post
Even Randy Pobst thought the Z had too much power for its' own good.
That was a tail happy car that wasn't (a) aligned properly when he first drove it nor (b) had the magnetic ride upgrade that improved the handling in many situations. Since the proper numbers have been made the Z06 really hasn't been tested as the GS was new and being tested and now the ZR-1.

I drove several Stingrays and GS before driving the Z06 in my quest for my first Corvette. Once I drove the Z, the others weren't in contention anymore. The torque is makes as others have said is outstanding. Up and down hills last night cruising home and just chilling, I got an indicated best 50 miles at 26.1mpg according the computer (which is a bit optimistic I know). There are plenty of people who will really never floor the gas in their Corvettes through one gear, let alone several. There are those who are happier with the narrow body look (I prefer the widebody) or have a budget or for whatever reason are happy with the LT1 and that's great! They are still awesome cars...but the shove of the LT4 getting on it is fantastic! I plan some HPDE with the car...not for ultimate lap times, but the opportunity to enjoy it on track. People said back in the 80s that a Testarossa with 380hp or a Countach with 455hp were both too much for the street and just silly. Why buy a car that can go 180mph? Many sedans now have the hp of an 80s BMW or even the lower powered Ferrari 328 and 308 and can go into the 140s or so. Why does any family need a Nissan or a Honda or a Toyota or even a Kia that has twin turbos, 365hp and goes 0-60 in 4.6 seconds? That's almost as much horsepower as a Testarossa!

The answer is simple...choice. Some buy to go to the track, drag or road course. Some buy because of looks, exclusivity, brand loyalty, price, trunk space, kids or not, and most definitely power and handling. Whatever the reason, where is a soccer mom with her kids gonna use 365hp? A Motor Trend writer back in the day driving a Testarossa on a long drive at the speed limit remarked on having Buicks on high suspension floating past and the like and remarking it was like the nuclear deterrent equivalent. You didn't always have to use it...it was enough to have it available. Why did I choose the Z06? Looks, price to be able to buy new, trunk space (yes, I want to go on trips with lots of stuff!), handling, and of course....power. I had been seriously looking at the GS until I drove the Z. I have zero issues modulating the throttle to get exactly what I want out of it. And yes....accelerating last night under an overpass on a busy highway to get up to speed quickly listening to the exhaust howl in track mode under that concrete, echoing American horsepower....was outstanding. I had goosebumps. I used only 2nd gear...but I was safely up to speed in the traffic around me in a few seconds and had a stupid grin on my face. I used full throttle. Not all the way to 93mph...but on a 70mph interstate with traffic flowing at 80 or so...it was a 30 up to speed run and with the torque down low, I didn't need to use first. It's definitely usable on the street. It was also 30 degrees with AS3+ tires on!

Everyone has a threshold of what works and what doesn't work for them. My around town into places I would never park the Vette car or on days I'd never drive it is a track prepped 99 Miata...with 140hp. Tossable in ways I'd never be able to do to the Vette, but far too often outclassed in being able to get up to speed by minivans and pickup trucks and running it hard to make it get it there. Sometimes it's just fun to use half throttle and still out accelerate someone else, watching them working hard while you loaf... :-)
RedBaroness is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 11:18 AM
  #234  
saleen556
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Member Since: May 2010
Posts: 2,093
Liked 498 Times in 354 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by kennyjames21 View Post
Thats a bad comparison. The m3 might be similar performance wise, but looks vastly different than the C7. The m3 could be twice as fast as my C7 and I still wouldn't want one because it's not nearly as sexy looking as the C7 (granted, how a car looks is opinion but I can't imagine anyone claiming an m3 looks as striking as a c7...). If acceleration was my main desire there are a lot of other cars I could buy that are faster, but nothing looks as good as a corvette imo, so I have zero interest. The base C7, GS, Z06 and ZR1 all look almost identical, so the only real difference is horsepower and top end performance, and that difference in performance is very difficult to use, and very rarely needed, on the street, so 99.9% of the time, that extra hp is for bragging rights. If I smash the pedal on my GS, the tires break loose with traction control on...

Again, we're talking about street use - on the track or for drag racing, of course you'd want more HP and torque, but on the street, what the base C7 gives you is more than enough 99.9% of the time. Can you name some situations where you are driving on a public road where you would feel 460hp isn't enough for what you are doing?

Regardless, I think this thread has proven your claim that people are 'ranting' is simply wrong, as we've had a rather long discussion on the topic with a very rational argument to support the idea.
Yes I agree Ranting was too strong of a word. I should have said comments. That was my mistake. Iíll disagree with you on looks. As the Stingray looks much different than the GS and Z cars. I can also say there is a big difference on the street between the engines. I do agree the Stingray is the better looking car over the M3. However the M3 was more practical and just as fast ON the street as a Stingray.
saleen556 is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 11:20 AM
  #235  
falcon5619
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: FL
Posts: 953
Liked 207 Times in 147 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by RedBaroness View Post

Why did I choose the Z06? I had been seriously looking at the GS until I drove the Z. I have zero issues modulating the throttle to get exactly what I want out of it. And yes....accelerating last night under an overpass on a busy highway to get up to speed quickly listening to the exhaust howl in track mode under that concrete, echoing American horsepower....was outstanding. I had goosebumps. I used only 2nd gear...but I was safely up to speed in the traffic around me in a few seconds and had a stupid grin on my face. I used full throttle. Not all the way to 93mph...but on a 70mph interstate with traffic flowing at 80 or so...it was a 30 up to speed run and with the torque down low, I didn't need to use first. It's definitely usable on the street. It was also 30 degrees with AS3+ tires on!

Sometimes it's just fun to use half throttle and still out accelerate someone else, watching them working hard while you loaf... :-)
I agree with your comments above, which is why I decided on the GS. The important thing to remember is that each individual may appreciate certain differences in the power delivery. For example, you mention you didn't use 1st gear, basically just rolled out 80% of 2nd gear and then shut it down. Some drivers like to shift more and with the lower gearing in the GS you can wind out the gears a bit more. Also, with the GS there is less drama when you want to put your foot down, because it offers a better balance of the power/torque to the chassis/tire. Don't get me wrong, I love torque and the shove in the seat just as much as anyone else and if the Z06 was AWD then I probably would have bought it. I owned a Stingray before my GS and it is traction limited as well, the GS definitely strikes the best balance in the C7 at ~$14k less, which is why it is referred to the sweet spot in the C7 lineup.

falcon5619 is online now  
Old 01-11-2019, 11:27 AM
  #236  
QUAKEJAKE
CF Senior Member
 
QUAKEJAKE's Avatar
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Location: Milford NH
Posts: 5,691
Liked 46 Times in 39 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Steve_R View Post
Where are all these rants about too much power?
I have seen the term ," to much horsepower for the street" countless times on here for the past 12 years.
QUAKEJAKE is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:42 PM
  #237  
JDSKY
CF Senior Member
 
JDSKY's Avatar
 
Member Since: Aug 2018
Location: Western WI
Posts: 520
Liked 118 Times in 77 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by saleen556 View Post


However the M3 was more practical and just as fast ON the street as a Stingray.
Every practical car ON the street that can achieve the speed limit is just as fast as a Stingray going the limit. Unless you really do drive 100+ a majority of the time and can manage to keep your DL and insurance intact speed on the street is just dumb conversation to begin with. Yes, I can appreciate and do use the passing power of my 460HP Vette. I can also appreciate it's cornering ability and fun factor when driving roads with curves marked with 25MPH signs on them. But comparing any auto built for practicality to the Vette is a null exercise. By the time I decided that I wanted a 2 seater sports car in my garage practicality was at the bottom of my must have list of features.

People that buy M sedans, AMG sedans, R sedans, V sedans are looking for both practicality and performance. Completely different category.
JDSKY is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:59 PM
  #238  
saleen556
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Member Since: May 2010
Posts: 2,093
Liked 498 Times in 354 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by JDSKY View Post
Every practical car ON the street that can achieve the speed limit is just as fast as a Stingray going the limit. Unless you really do drive 100+ a majority of the time and can manage to keep your DL and insurance intact speed on the street is just dumb conversation to begin with. Yes, I can appreciate and do use the passing power of my 460HP Vette. I can also appreciate it's cornering ability and fun factor when driving roads with curves marked with 25MPH signs on them. But comparing any auto built for practicality to the Vette is a null exercise. By the time I decided that I wanted a 2 seater sports car in my garage practicality was at the bottom of my must have list of features.

People that buy M sedans, AMG sedans, R sedans, V sedans are looking for both practicality and performance. Completely different category.
Okay. I guess I just think of cars differently.
saleen556 is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 01:04 PM
  #239  
RedBaroness
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: May 2018
Posts: 165
Liked 70 Times in 44 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by falcon5619 View Post
I agree with your comments above, which is why I decided on the GS. The important thing to remember is that each individual may appreciate certain differences in the power delivery. For example, you mention you didn't use 1st gear, basically just rolled out 80% of 2nd gear and then shut it down. Some drivers like to shift more and with the lower gearing in the GS you can wind out the gears a bit more. Also, with the GS there is less drama when you want to put your foot down, because it offers a better balance of the power/torque to the chassis/tire. Don't get me wrong, I love torque and the shove in the seat just as much as anyone else and if the Z06 was AWD then I probably would have bought it. I owned a Stingray before my GS and it is traction limited as well, the GS definitely strikes the best balance in the C7 at ~$14k less, which is why it is referred to the sweet spot in the C7 lineup.
And the GS is a fantastic car and if I'd bought earlier in the year it would have been what I selected but waiting for ELBM my budget allowance went up! But out of the time I've had my Z and the now nearly 2,000 miles I've put on it...averaging only about 18mpg most tanks with me having fun and then cruising on the highway, I've only had it get loose a VERY few times. First time was in second and just flat out punched it at about 40mph. Cool day and although I'd been driving a while, the road there is old, smooth from heavy traffic but dry. Momentary traction control, could feel it get a touch loose and then it was over....I was moving ahead. On the track in the damp at VIR Charity laps...I did manage to get another one of those, temps in the low 40s as well with the MPSS tires and in Wet mode. In the wet with similar temps...I did get it to step out some in Wet mode on the street...but that was punching it a bit harder than I probably should have for conditions. Once I have good heat in the MPSS tires though, I couldn't easily get them to lose traction even in sport mode at VIR coming out of Oak Tree and getting the gas down very quickly...although not just flat stomping it which just has never been my technique. The AS3+ tires didn't have any issues at all either. Maybe it's because after driving a bit of a temperamental turbo car my foot is tuned to press the gas pedal a bit differently? Instead of just hammering it I apply it fully, yet quickly as an application. I haven't tried power shifting it, first to second in launch control or anything though... Maybe the updated ride software is a bit better for softening for harder acceleration and giving a bit better weight transfer or something. It runs great and my quick measurements of acceleration were very similar to other videos, so it's running full power so that thought did come to mind, but I drove a couple of other Z06s both auto and manual and this one accelerates the same way. Honestly the way people talked at times, I expected it to be like driving around on ice...and it's been just the opposite. Sure, if I want to I can make it...I've proven that a few times, but in general it's just massively competent for that torque and power.
RedBaroness is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 01:20 PM
  #240  
Sandyeggo Designs
Supporting Vendor
 
Sandyeggo Designs's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2018
Location: San Diego, CA (where else?)
Posts: 293
Liked 61 Times in 35 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by dmaxx3500 View Post
some of you guys should try to drive a 60-70's muscle car,,300-450hp,bias tires,,no ABS or nannys,rain,snow,,we drove em every day

we didn't have extra cars
...no variable rack and pinion steering, crappy brakes, crappy headlights, crappy suspension,...yep, we're lucky to have survived them. I had a '66 Plymouth Belvedere II with 383ci and 3 speed on the floor. Jacked up in the rear...
Similar to this one...

It was also available with a 426 cu in (7.0 L) Hemi. Freakin' death trap... Notice there's no mirror on the passenger side? That was optional!
Sandyeggo Designs is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Why all the rants about too much power?


Sponsored Ads
Vendor Directory

Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: