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Take a look at the shop where I had mine done. https://johns360coatings.com/ The job consisted of paint correction first then what you see in the Avenger package on this website. Plus a bottle of speed coat to apply every three months or so. Looks pretty darn good for and old 2014 base.
You can do it yourself if you have enough time and patience (and the proper tools). This is after about 20 hrs of work on my wife's DD.
Where's the shine? (ha, ha!)
That's incredible!! I've never seen anything as beautiful. My last two Vettes have been black. It's enough to consider another black Vette when the C8 arrives.
I'm still confused on the issue of paint correction.
I have a new GS 3LT M7, which has motivated me to look at threads like this. The reputable ceramic coating shops I've called.seem to think that I'll need some sort of paint correction even though my car is new (one refuses to warranty their work without it). But my understanding is that, at least in my case with a new car, the clear coat covers all my paint. Yes, I could have some "swirls", etc in the clear coat, but shouldn't those be buffed out as part of the standard clay bar/polishing step prior to ceramic application? Is this correct? If so, why would one ever need paint correction on a new car?
I'm still confused on the issue of paint correction.
I have a new GS 3LT M7, which has motivated me to look at threads like this. The reputable ceramic coating shops I've called.seem to think that I'll need some sort of paint correction even though my car is new (one refuses to warranty their work without it). But my understanding is that, at least in my case with a new car, the clear coat covers all my paint. Yes, I could have some "swirls", etc in the clear coat, but shouldn't those be buffed out as part of the standard clay bar/polishing step prior to ceramic application? Is this correct? If so, why would one ever need paint correction on a new car?
Paint correction is the same as buffing.... When a car gets delivered to the dealer, many of them, if not a majority have car wash machines. These "machines are not gentle on the paint and create swirl marks, They have nylon brushes or giant wash rags that beat the crap out of your paint. A car being delivered by truck gets dirty, plus pulling off the protective plastic leaves behind residue. A $15/hour kid is using a microfiber and a caustic chemical remover gets rid of the residue. Don't care who you are but that is going to leave behind minor scratches in the clearcoat. The reason a detailer wants to correct those scratches is ... They detract from the shine, a scratched finish delivers poor light to the eye. A polished scratch free finish delivers the best light/shine to the eye. Once the ceramic is applied, for the life of the ceramic, those scratches are locked in and can be seen. It reflects poorly on the finish, and second reflects poorly on the detailer applying the ceramic coating.
I turned people away from my shop that did not want to spend the money getting a scratch free finish. I did not want my "signature" on a car that I knew was still going to look horrible when completed and know it would be like that for years to come.
Does that help?
grzldvt1, Youve helped me before and I read all your posts that I come across.
I am that amatuer detailer in Seattle area...trying to do your quality of work on my
20K mile 2012 Inferno Orange Grand Sport that I bought in TX.
I'm spending ALOT of hours trying to polish and remove every defect I can find.
I'm currently filling in TINY chips that have gone past the base color. Using a Dupli
Color mfg AC/Delco GM paint pen/paint brush/Clear Brush all in one tool. Using the
tiny pen tip in chips I let a drop flow out...then I use my other hand covered with latex
glove to wipe away and level as I dont have a squeegee.
After allowing days to dry I will come back and run a 3inch 5000 grit TriZact Foam backed wet disc
to level this painted touch up...Then M100 on 3 inch Micro Fiber Pad.......and a finshing polish
on a white foam pad
No way I could do all this work on a customer car...Nobody would pay me for all this work im
doing on my on car
I also bought a TORQ long throw polisher than Im starting to use with 6" MF pads....
I think I want XPEL Ultimate plus on my Front Bumper if/when I can get satisfied
with correction.
Im adding ZR1 skirts/flares to hold down the debris from hitting sides of car
Are you still recommending the Feynlab ??? and the Japanese named products as
the best ceramic Im allowed to buy...not being a certified dealer
Thanks as always Chuck Sharin Auburn, WA
Yes, we have talked, and lets face it, you will do a much better job on your car than a detailer will, barring someone willing to pay for all that work. I have done cars like what you are doing but my shop was in an area where $$$$ were not an issue.
I am still a Feynlabs advocate, I believe it is the best ceramic out there.
Paint correction is the same as buffing.... When a car gets delivered to the dealer, many of them, if not a majority have car wash machines. These "machines are not gentle on the paint and create swirl marks, They have nylon brushes or giant wash rags that beat the crap out of your paint. A car being delivered by truck gets dirty, plus pulling off the protective plastic leaves behind residue. A $15/hour kid is using a microfiber and a caustic chemical remover gets rid of the residue. Don't care who you are but that is going to leave behind minor scratches in the clearcoat. The reason a detailer wants to correct those scratches is ... They detract from the shine, a scratched finish delivers poor light to the eye. A polished scratch free finish delivers the best light/shine to the eye. Once the ceramic is applied, for the life of the ceramic, those scratches are locked in and can be seen. It reflects poorly on the finish, and second reflects poorly on the detailer applying the ceramic coating.
I turned people away from my shop that did not want to spend the money getting a scratch free finish. I did not want my "signature" on a car that I knew was still going to look horrible when completed and know it would be like that for years to come.
Does that help?
I don't disagree with your comments on how scratches can occur in the clear coat of a new car, although I'm dubious about whether a majority of new cars are delivered with noticeable scratches. As you say paint correction seems to mean polishing the clear coat layer where scratches exist. My point is that I was told that polishing is one step in the ceramic coating process regardless of whether there is "paint correction" or not. If so, a paint correction step would seem to be redundant and not necessary.
I don't disagree with your comments on how scratches can occur in the clear coat of a new car, although I'm dubious about whether a majority of new cars are delivered with noticeable scratches. As you say paint correction seems to mean polishing the clear coat layer where scratches exist. My point is that I was told that polishing is one step in the ceramic coating process regardless of whether there is "paint correction" or not. If so, a paint correction step would seem to be redundant and not necessary.
Polishing and paint correction in this context are two steps based on your understanding, and trust me being 15 years in the show car detailing business and having dealers have me do their advanced details, they scratch the hell out of cars.
Let me break it down for you a little more
We wash the car
Clay the car, yes even new cars have some contaminants on them
Claying first and making sure the paint is pristine is very important as anything still stuck to the paint/clearcoat will just introduce more swirls when you buff/paint correction
First buff - Is a heavy cut, and that is a relative term, that removes all the scratches introduced by poor washing, etc
That first cut will leave behind microscratches, many not be openly visible to the eye, but trust me they are there.
Polishing - This step uses a very fine product, most are what is called self diminishing, meaning the product breaks down as you work it,
You use a very, very soft pad, called a jeweling pad because that is exactly what it does
As you work the polishing product it removes the microscratches and creates an incredibly flat surface that reflects the maximum light... aka shine
In some cases I have had to do up to 4 passes because of the quality of the paint, or lack of quality and the owner simply did not know how to take care of the exterior.
Polishing and paint correction in this context are two steps based on your understanding,...
I think you made my point, that the actual paint itself isn't corrected, so I'd call the use of the term "paint correction" a misnomer. Rather, I wish I had been told instead that, if there are noticeable imperfections, a two step, coarse/fine polish would be needed, which would cost extra. Of course we're getting down to semantics, so it's not really a big deal once you understand what's involved. I don't discount at all your comment that it can be a lot of work to do all this.
I think you made my point, that the actual paint itself isn't corrected, so I'd call the use of the term "paint correction" a misnomer. Rather, I wish I had been told instead that, if there are noticeable imperfections, a two step, coarse/fine polish would be needed, which would cost extra. Of course we're getting down to semantics, so it's not really a big deal once you understand what's involved. I don't discount at all your comment that it can be a lot of work to do all this.
?????? Really, a misnomer, come on..... clear coat or the paint coat is still considered paint on a car... Holy simenatics batman
Polishing and paint correction in this context are two steps based on your understanding, and trust me being 15 years in the show car detailing business and having dealers have me do their advanced details, they scratch the hell out of cars.
Let me break it down for you a little more
We wash the car
Clay the car, yes even new cars have some contaminants on them
Claying first and making sure the paint is pristine is very important as anything still stuck to the paint/clearcoat will just introduce more swirls when you buff/paint correction
First buff - Is a heavy cut, and that is a relative term, that removes all the scratches introduced by poor washing, etc
That first cut will leave behind microscratches, many not be openly visible to the eye, but trust me they are there.
Polishing - This step uses a very fine product, most are what is called self diminishing, meaning the product breaks down as you work it,
You use a very, very soft pad, called a jeweling pad because that is exactly what it does
As you work the polishing product it removes the microscratches and creates an incredibly flat surface that reflects the maximum light... aka shine
In some cases I have had to do up to 4 passes because of the quality of the paint, or lack of quality and the owner simply did not know how to take care of the exterior.
I agree completely. This is exactly the process I use on all my cars, from my DD SUV to my 7 figure show cars that have won multiple awards from the Amelia Concours to Pebble Beach. The only difference are steps 6, 7, and, in some cases, 8. Those steps vary widely depending on the paint's age, type (single-stage - lacquer, two-stage - color and clear, softness,...), car's usage, and exposure to the elements. I also measure the paint's depth with a gauge prior to starting in order to know what I have to work with. The entire process can take me anywhere from 2 hours to 30+ hours. As for the need to do all this, this is currently my hobby and passion; having been my business in the past. Just like someone who flips houses, I have taken cars that have been neglected and, with some work and TLC, have sold them for considerable profits.
One thing to remember is that by its very nature paint is soft and porous. Just like a person's skin, it needs to be protected and cared for and, just like a person's skin, you can tell if it hasn't been taken care of. You see car's all the time that have failed clear coats, dull and lifeless color, and paint that has dried out and is cracked. Most people don't realize the that every time ANYTHING touches unprotected paint, micro-scratches occur. Even washing a clean car regularly causes swirl marks. Now, I know many may consider this being obsessive and it probably is, but to each his own. I would love to attend the Super Bowl but would prefer to watch it in the comfort of my den and spend the $5,000 to $10,000 its would cost to attend on something car related. Cars vary greatly, from utilitarian appliances to museum quality works of art and the way chose to care for them varies just a much. At the end of the day, it is up to the owner to decide (and be happy with) how they choose to care for their car.
Paint correction can be very expensive.Depending on what level of perfection you are shooting for and your quality of the factory finish that is started with to perfect.
Clear coat thickness has a lot to do with the infamous..Orange Peel.What is OP?
It is the uneven finish of paint.Blotchy,bumpy,wavy.
Not many cars are free of it.Some OP has to be a bit aggressive to remove all of it.You really have to have patients and knowledge of how far to go before damaging the clear coat. No going back except back to the spray booth.
So Paint correction does have certain levels of,Bottom Line Cost
OP Can be photographed.It is a distortion of a reflection.
?????? Really, a misnomer, come on..... clear coat or the paint coat is still considered paint on a car... Holy simenatics batman
Wikipedia: "Paint is any pigmented liquid, liquefiable, or mastic composition that, after application to a substrate in a thin layer, converts to a solid film."
Wikipedia: "A pigment is something that is added to something else to give it color."
According to this accepted definition, clear coat is not "paint" since it doesn't contain a color pigment. Again, my point is that customers likely think in these terms and can be confused into thinking that "paint correction" implies something done to the paint layer.
Wikipedia: "Paint is any pigmented liquid, liquefiable, or mastic composition that, after application to a substrate in a thin layer, converts to a solid film."
Wikipedia: "A pigment is something that is added to something else to give it color."
According to this accepted definition, clear coat is not "paint" since it doesn't contain a color pigment. Again, my point is that customers likely think in these terms and can be confused into thinking that "paint correction" implies something done to the paint layer.
OK, time to get a bit brutal, as this has reached a point of being ridiculous. Clear Coat for 100% of the 5000+ customers that came to my shop considered clear coat - paint. A majority of my customers are car saavy, as they are the upper echelon in Silicon Valley(ie 7 figure incomes) and did not get where they were, by being naive/stupid.
You are taking a fairly simple concept and complicating beyond comprehension. Several of us have tried to explain it and the best you can do is pick it apart without any real knowledge of what it takes or what paint correction actually means.
To be blunt, when I finally detected a car owner that is doing what you are doing, I sent them to the local car wash for a detail. That is like being sent to the DUNCE corner. You would not be a customer I would want at my shop..
I had people beating my door down to get their cars done by me, and simply did not have the time time to deal with silly semantics that you are bringing up.
I agree completely. This is exactly the process I use on all my cars, from my DD SUV to my 7 figure show cars that have won multiple awards from the Amelia Concours to Pebble Beach. The only difference are steps 6, 7, and, in some cases, 8. Those steps vary widely depending on the paint's age, type (single-stage - lacquer, two-stage - color and clear, softness,...), car's usage, and exposure to the elements. I also measure the paint's depth with a gauge prior to starting in order to know what I have to work with. The entire process can take me anywhere from 2 hours to 30+ hours. As for the need to do all this, this is currently my hobby and passion; having been my business in the past. Just like someone who flips houses, I have taken cars that have been neglected and, with some work and TLC, have sold them for considerable profits.
One thing to remember is that by its very nature paint is soft and porous. Just like a person's skin, it needs to be protected and cared for and, just like a person's skin, you can tell if it hasn't been taken care of. You see car's all the time that have failed clear coats, dull and lifeless color, and paint that has dried out and is cracked. Most people don't realize the that every time ANYTHING touches unprotected paint, micro-scratches occur. Even washing a clean car regularly causes swirl marks. Now, I know many may consider this being obsessive and it probably is, but to each his own. I would love to attend the Super Bowl but would prefer to watch it in the comfort of my den and spend the $5,000 to $10,000 its would cost to attend on something car related. Cars vary greatly, from utilitarian appliances to museum quality works of art and the way chose to care for them varies just a much. At the end of the day, it is up to the owner to decide (and be happy with) how they choose to care for their car.
Excellent post!!!!... you totally get it. I did not go into the intimate details of creating a show car finish like you are expecting or do, as I really didn't think the poster "jgn" would get it. I have techniques and tricks of trade, if you will, based on the car and the paint. As with many things, each car is unique, and each pass with a product/pad/buffer is unique. A very simple thing like pressure on the buffer makes a huge difference in the outcome. A simple thing like a Xenon light that shows every imperfection, would literally send me running and screaming through my parking lot because it found things I thought were fixed, but in the end I know I delivered an absolutely perfect finish. That attention to "detail" is how I got my reputation as the place to go.
Nuff said, you and I get what it takes, the poster "jgn", seems to want to pick apart details, and simply does not understand what is being said.
I had my 2014 done recently by the best shop in this area with a two step process. After the correction was done the ceramic coating was applied. The thing looks better than new and my total bill was $350 including a bottle of what they call Speed Coat which is used a couple of times a year for maintenance.
01-30-2019, 06:29 AM
Excellent post!!!!... you totally get it. I did not go into the intimate details of creating a show car finish like you are expecting or do, as I really didn't think the poster "jgn" would get it. I have techniques and tricks of trade, if you will, based on the car and the paint. As with many things, each car is unique, and each pass with a product/pad/buffer is unique. A very simple thing like pressure on the buffer makes a huge difference in the outcome. A simple thing like a Xenon light that shows every imperfection, would literally send me running and screaming through my parking lot because it found things I thought were fixed, but in the end I know I delivered an absolutely perfect finish. That attention to "detail" is how I got my reputation as the place to go.
