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^^^
Yep, looks that way but if you search his Posts on the subject you'll see that was not the case, took a lot to remove and he swithed to Carbotech.
As I said I'm not affiliated with any pad manufacturer but investigated the reasons for "brown" rotors and "inferior cold pad performance" since I installed PowerStop pads on my 2017 Grand Sport WHEM NEW (30 miles on odometer,) bedded as per instructions after having 3 years of excellent profamce with Carbotech 1521 pads on my 2014 Z51. The PowerStop cheap price and forum comments got me to buy them. But I removed and tossed them after 900 miles because of inferior cold pad performance and bought the more expensive Carbotch 1521 pads. I did the research to find out possible technical reasons!
It's NOT just me, here are some other forum posts in addition to the 4 others I list in post #17 above. New buyers should consider the options: Doesn't look like the QA issue that IMO (and others) believe caused the browning is a high percentage per forum posts.
BROWN ROTOR COLOR
Fugly1 CF Senior Member "My rotors turned darker after installing PowerStop pads on my ’16 z51. Kind of annoying, but not a big deal."
Flyingscot CF Senior Member "My rotors turned brown and replaced them with Carbotechs. Many posts about this."
PERFOMANCE ISSUE
Runner61627 CF Senior Member "Have had both the PowerStop’s and Carbotechs. On my previous Vette-a 2015 3LT Z51, the PowerStops eliminated most brake dust, but noticeable reduction in stopping power. Some folks reported discolored rotors. The Carbotechs are on my Grand Sport now and take care of the brake dust without any reduction in stopping power and no discoloring of the rotors. While more expensive, the Carbotechs – in my experience – are the better choice."
5k on my grand sport with power stops - no browning at all, and virtually no break dust, and I haven't noticed any stopping power difference in street use.
It's the same 2 or 3 people in here who constantly say their rotors turned brown after using these pads, while you will see countless people telling you that it's not happening to them. I believe Jerry U has or will be starting a religion based on destroying power stops and replacing them all with carbotechs.
5k on my grand sport with power stops - no browning at all, and virtually no break dust, and I haven't noticed any stopping power difference in street use.
It's the same 2 or 3 people in here who constantly say their rotors turned brown after using these pads, while you will see countless people telling you that it's not happening to them. I believe Jerry U has or will be starting a religion based on destroying power stops and replacing them all with carbotechs.
Geez finally somebody said what everyone was already thinking! It supposedly happened to like one guy and all the sudden Powerstop is trash. There is zero difference in stopping power from the stock Brembo pads. I actually think mine bite harder than my stock pads did. Even if they were slightly less powerful they don't cost the ridiculous prices that carbotech is asking for theirs!
The pics by wecker3 look like when you wash the car, the rotors turn brown until you use them again.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
I guess the 12 people who posting in here who haven't had discolored rotors with the power techs are just super lucky. I'm gonna go buy a lottery ticket.
Geez finally somebody said what everyone was already thinking! It supposedly happened to like one guy and all the sudden Powerstop is trash. There is zero difference in stopping power from the stock Brembo pads. I actually think mine bite harder than my stock pads did. Even if they were slightly less powerful they don't cost the ridiculous prices that carbotech is asking for theirs!
Yeah...
Look, if someone wants to pay 4x more for one pad vs another, go ahead, it's a free country. But I've been using the powerstops for over 5k miles, and they work flawlessly and produce almost no brake dust, so I can't see how another pad is going to give me 4x the performance, it's just not happening, so I'm happy with my decision to go with the power stops.
I bought a front and rear set of Power Stop Z26 pads for my 2019 Z51 (that I pick up on May 10th) trying to avoid the high cost of the Carbotech equivalent. My only concern is talk of them turning rotors brown in this forum which includes a picture that has been posted repeatedly. I sent this picture to Power Stop asking them to please ease my concern. Please see my message and their response below:
"Hello Power Stop Tech Support,
I just purchased front and rear Z26 pads for my 2019 Corvette Z51 Stingray. I’ll be installing them on a brand new car with less than 200 miles. Rumours on the Corvette chat rooms indicate these pads may turn my rotors brown? Attached is the picture most often seen when this subject is discussed. I purchased mine from an Amazon vendor a week or two ago. Some who comment say it was a bad batch of Z26 pads from 2 or 3 years ago and this issue has been resolved. Many comment they’ve used the Z26’s successfully with no browning of their rotors. Can you help provide any information about your Z26 pads turning rotors brown? It would give me peace of mind and help squash this rumor."
Their response: "Thank you for recent purchase of Power Stop Brakes. I have only since one case of the brake rotors turning brown i have not seen another case like that. We have sold hundreds of this brake pads to different vendors that have sold them to customers. It could had been the material exchange between the pad and rotor due to that vehicle having Iron & Ceramic rotors. Chemical reaction when the bedding procedure was done."
I bet you it was me !!!! After i messaged and told them about the brown stains on my rotors and they told me it was rust . It took multiple attempts to talk to a tech and i sent photos of my rotors. He did send me a new set of pads and they did the same thing. I now have Carbotech pads and no brown stained rotors.
I should have got the Carbotech Pads first but i was being cheap and got the pads that were half the price and what a mistake.
I would not care about the brown stains if i could not see the rotors like the wheels my 1989 C4 had but with the spoke wheels the C7 has BROWN rotors looked like **** on a 65K car.
How long ago did you install those powerstop pads? I wonder if it is a thing of the past and has been resolved. There are many forums where people are using powerstop pads without issue. $400 for JUST brake pads is an incredible Corvette tax.
Geez finally somebody said what everyone was already thinking! It supposedly happened to like one guy and all the sudden Powerstop is trash. There is zero difference in stopping power from the stock Brembo pads. I actually think mine bite harder than my stock pads did. Even if they were slightly less powerful they don't cost the ridiculous prices that carbotech is asking for theirs!
I am not the only one with the problem of BROWN stained rotors. It took me multiple attempts to talk to a tech on the phone about the problem i was having with their pads. They did send me replacement pads but refused to replace my GM rotors. Google Power Stop Brown Rotors and read all the comments. This was back in 2017 and now they changed the formula of the pads that they sell now. Made in China Junk pads and terrible customer service. A 65k Corvette should not have BROWN Stained rotors.
[QUOTE=kennyjames21;1599311070 I believe Jerry U has or will be starting a religion based on destroying power stops and replacing them all with carbotechs.[/QUOTE]
I present what I find and did enough tests and stops every time I leave my street that no way do the PowerStop pads stop as well when cold (they were fine when warm/hot.)
As I posted, it's not just me. These are other knowledgeable forum poster comments:
Village Idiot(a knowledgeable avid Tracker) CF Senior Member "I put the Power Stop Z26 pads in and I seriously regret it. Braking power and bite sucks compared to OEM. It was actually kind of dangerous- not because the braking system is inadequate but because I wasn't used to it. It was a big enough change from street to race pads for the track but this is going to make it far more pronounced. Not sure I'd do it again if I had the chance."
Z06NJCF Senior Member "Initially you will feel that you have to step harder to make them brake the same as OEM. That's because all you know up to that time are the OEM brakes. However, with time, it becomes like muscle memory. Now I just brake like normal and don't even think about it.
But I'll never forget the 1st day I got them installed and I was driving home, I was like "WTF's going on here...I'm gonna end up rear ending somebody.
But you get used to them."
Runner61627 CF Senior Member "Have had both the PowerStop’s and Carbotechs. On my previous Vette-a 2015 3LT Z51, the PowerStops eliminated most brake dust, but noticeable reduction in stopping power. Some folks reported discolored rotors. The Carbotechs are on my Grand Sport now and take care of the brake dust without any reduction in stopping power and no discoloring of the rotors. While more expensive, the Carbotechs – in my experience – are the better choice"
Unlike Marcho_Polo who said in his post:
"Man people sure get pissy around here just because others have a different experience or opinion!
To each their own, it doesn't **** me off if someone buys PowerStops! Who the F cares!?!?!?
I'm going with Carbotech this time on my GS. Doesn't mean I think anyone that uses PowerStop are a dumbass or anything."
Frankly, like Rhett Butler in "Gone with the Wind" said: "Frankly my dear I don't give a dam!" I bought and tossed PowerStop because I was foolish to try saving money when I should have realized $125 delivered including SC sales tax meant PowerStop, the importer, after paying freight from China and profit they, Amazon and UPS made - that factory in China could not have much QA! But it only cost me $125 for the mistake. Have made many more in life costing more! Have never had an accident with another car in ~60 year of driving and brakes saved me many times! New buyers can read what I have discovered and decide what they want for their ~$70,000 car!
Heck I buy products from China at HF all the time- BUT not my wrenches!
PS: In discussions with folks who use HAWK pads, those more expensive also US made pads stop fine when cold but are more switch like. The Carbotech pads have very linear pedal feel. Fits my aggressive stops from ~60 mph when I turn onto a rural road from a 4 lane highway every time I leave my home.
I am not the only one with the problem of BROWN stained rotors. It took me multiple attempts to talk to a tech on the phone about the problem i was having with their pads. They did send me replacement pads but refused to replace my GM rotors. Google Power Stop Brown Rotors and read all the comments. This was back in 2017 and now they changed the formula of the pads that they sell now. Made in China Junk pads and terrible customer service. A 65k Corvette should not have BROWN Stained rotors.
This is my car with Carbotech Pads !!!
So did you replace the GM rotors on your car because they were brown from the powerstop pads? Did you really expect they were going to replace your rotors for a little surface color that could be scuffed off? And I did search way before when the issue came up in a different thread. And guess who I found? Yep, yourself and Jerry U on another forum with the same pictures plastered up there too!
And I'll leave you with a search of my own. Have you taken a look at how many other things on your 65k car are also made in China?
Have you taken a look at how many other things on your 65k car are also made in China?
Big difference when GM buys something from wherever, they have a spec and test product coming in to the spec.
Don't really expect you or others who have made up you mind that cheap Chinese made pads are just fine BUT perhaps new buyers might find what I have in my PDF of interest re QA and raw material variations. Here is an abstract related to ceramic and similar materials requiring QA.:
"I managed a welding materials R&D laboratory developing Argon based shielding gases, welding wire and welding fluxes.
One raw material we used was Bauxite. It’s the ceramic type ore that aluminum is made from. We were very careful to use ore from sources that had low, what were called “tramp elements.” Mother nature seldom makes pure ores. They all come with contaminants.We bought mostly from Australia but could have purchased Chinese Bauxite much cheaper. However, it had variable contaminant levels that would affect the weld quality. Could not risk the variability
Friction Material in Brake Pads:
How the components in the friction material shear, break and interact during braking can determine a pad’s friction level, noise and wear characteristics.A brake pad may require up to 20 different raw materials. Some raw components are abrasive, while other components lubricate. Some components, like structural fibers and resins, hold the pad together, while other components tune the friction levels through various temperature ranges.
A friction material has many different components. Kevlar fibers, for example, help to give the brake pad structure under high temperatures. Copper is a durable metal that can dissipate heat quickly. That’s the primary reason why flakes of copper have been mixed with other ingredients in many ceramic brake pads. The faster the pads dissipate heat, the cooler they run and the better they resist brake fade. That improves pedal feel, stopping distance and braking safety.
Typical Brake Pad Materials:
Non-metallic materials- these are made from a combination of various synthetic substances bonded into a composite, principally in the form of cellulose, and sintered glass. They are gentle on rotors, but produce a fair amount of dust, thus having a short service life.
Semi-metallic materials - synthetics mixed with varying proportions of flaked metals. These are harder than non-metallic pads, more fade-resistant and longer lasting, but at the cost of increased wear to the rotor/drum which then must be replaced sooner. They also require more actuating force than non-metallic pads in order to generate braking torque.
Fully metallic materials - these pads are used only in racing vehicles, and are composed of sintered steel without any synthetic additives. They are very long-lasting, but require more force to slow a vehicle while wearing off the rotors faster. They also tend to be very loud.
Ceramic materials - Composed of clay and porcelain bonded to copper flakes and filaments, these are a good compromise between the durability of the metal pads, grip and fade resistance of the synthetic variety. Their principal drawback, however, is that unlike the previous three types, despite the presence of the copper (which has a high thermal conductivity), ceramic pads generally do not dissipate heat well, which can eventually cause the pads or other components of the braking system to warp. However, because the ceramic materials cause the braking sound to be elevated in frequency beyond that of human hearing, they are exceptionally quiet.
Types of Friction
There are two types of friction when it comes to brakes:
Abrasive friction is the wearing of the pad and rotor to change forward motion into heat. This type of friction involves the breaking of bonds of both the pad material and the disc’s cast iron when the caliper pushes them together; however, both components experience wear. Semi-met pads and some non-asbestos organics (NAO) use this type of friction.
Adherent (or adhesive) pad material forms a very thin transfer layer of pad material on the surface of the rotor. The two surfaces are the same materials and generate friction by breaking or shearing the bonds in the pad.
Ceramic and some NAO pads use this type of friction. The transfer layer is bonded to the rotor’s surface and cannot be washed away by water or wheel cleaners. The only way to remove it is with a brake lathe or abnormal heat.
The layer is always being worn and replenished by the brake pad during braking, so these pads produce dust. And, while adherent friction is easier on rotors, the pads become the primary wear component.
With this type of pad, it is critical to machine the rotor with the correct surface finish and follow the recommended break-in procedure so the transfer layer can be established.
With both types of friction, it is critical for the rotor to have minimal runout. Abrasive friction materials will wear away at high spots, creating disc thickness variation and pulsation. Adhesive (adherent) friction material could deposit the friction material unevenly and cause brake judder.
Bad Stuff
Why do some pads use components that could be considered harmful to the environment? Part of the answer is that some materials effect on the environment were not fully realized until a few decades ago.
Two states have legislation limiting its overall content in brake pad formulations. The main focus of new laws in Washington state and California revolves around protecting the environment. Studies have shown 35 to 60% of the copper in water run-off is caused by brake dust! Much of the dust that is emitted into the air is blown onto areas next to the road, or is washed into the storm drains when it rains. Most storm drains flow directly into creeks, rivers and marine waters without wastewater treatment. Copper and other harmful materials can hurt and kill small marine animals and even render some fish without a sense of smell.
Marine Invertebrates Invertebrates, which represent more than 95% of the known species on Earth, are animals without backbones. They are diverse, interesting, colorful, and unusual, marine life. In invertebrate marine life, copper alters their biochemical and biophysical properties even at very low concentrations. Water with even 0.018 ppm copper can be toxic to some invertebrates. In California and Washington, brake pads in 2025 must have less than 0.5% copper.
Benefits of Copper: Despite its drawbacks, copper performs several functions: It adds structural integrity to the brake pad material, reduces fade so that brakes remain effective through extended braking events, transfers heat efficiently, and helps brakes be more effective in cold weather. Copper also has properties that help prevent brakes from squeaking and shuddering.
Brake pad manufacturers are finding other materials to provide those braking properties. Some have already introduced “copper free” brake pads, including Bendix, Bosch and Hitachi who state: “we have developed “copper free” brake pads with a stable friction coefficient by substitution of materials that perform the thermal conductivity and lubricating priorities with improvement in the change in friction surface.
My Experience With Iron Contamination
While managing a welding materials R&D laboratory in Ohio I passed an open pit mine of a material we used in some of our welding fluxes. It was on the way to the Drag Races in Thompson Ohio, it was sand! The company we purchased from had various grades they sold at different prices. The highest grade was sold to folks making silicon computer chips; it had very low iron content. Iron is a contaminant in the silica sand as well as many other ores. In welding, it can influence the flux performance so we purchased a low residual content product that had low iron. We paid much more than the “sand” they sold for concrete etc. that was a brown color.
When I passed this very large open pit mind you could see areas of pure white sand and the more common brown sand. We purchased product with a guaranteed maximum iron and other unwanted containments. As we did with all steel welding wire that came into the plant we checked the chemistry of the sand and other ingredients. That is the cost required to make a quality product. In fact, we were delivering some of these products to weld 10-inch-thick Nuclear power vessels and Nuclear submarines.
A quality product must start with quality, consistent materials. Could the brown rotor stain on Powerstop Z26 pads be caused by raw material contamination? IMO probably. Iron is a likely culprit. That is what it is not an issue in most pads as it can vary!
Poor cold pad performance is a design and raw material cost issue. Look at the info I supplied re min and max pad temps. Race pads often require a min temp to stop well.
I present what I find and did enough tests and stops every time I leave my street that no way do the PowerStop pads stop as well when cold (they were fine when warm/hot.)
As I posted, it's not just me. These are other knowledgeable forum poster comments:
Village Idiot(a knowledgeable avid Tracker) CF Senior Member "I put the Power Stop Z26 pads in and I seriously regret it. Braking power and bite sucks compared to OEM. It was actually kind of dangerous- not because the braking system is inadequate but because I wasn't used to it. It was a big enough change from street to race pads for the track but this is going to make it far more pronounced. Not sure I'd do it again if I had the chance."
Z06NJCF Senior Member "Initially you will feel that you have to step harder to make them brake the same as OEM. That's because all you know up to that time are the OEM brakes. However, with time, it becomes like muscle memory. Now I just brake like normal and don't even think about it.
But I'll never forget the 1st day I got them installed and I was driving home, I was like "WTF's going on here...I'm gonna end up rear ending somebody.
But you get used to them."
Runner61627 CF Senior Member "Have had both the PowerStop’s and Carbotechs. On my previous Vette-a 2015 3LT Z51, the PowerStops eliminated most brake dust, but noticeable reduction in stopping power. Some folks reported discolored rotors. The Carbotechs are on my Grand Sport now and take care of the brake dust without any reduction in stopping power and no discoloring of the rotors. While more expensive, the Carbotechs – in my experience – are the better choice"
Unlike Marcho_Polo who said in his post:
"Man people sure get pissy around here just because others have a different experience or opinion!
To each their own, it doesn't **** me off if someone buys PowerStops! Who the F cares!?!?!?
I'm going with Carbotech this time on my GS. Doesn't mean I think anyone that uses PowerStop are a dumbass or anything."
Frankly, like Rhett Butler in "Gone with the Wind" said: "Frankly my dear I don't give a dam!" I bought and tossed PowerStop because I was foolish to try saving money when I should have realized $125 delivered including SC sales tax meant PowerStop, the importer, after paying freight from China and profit they, Amazon and UPS made - that factory in China could not have much QA! But it only cost me $125 for the mistake. Have made many more in life costing more! Have never had an accident with another car in ~60 year of driving and brakes saved me many times! New buyers can read what I have discovered and decide what they want for their ~$70,000 car!
Heck I buy products from China at HF all the time- BUT not my wrenches!
PS: In discussions with folks who use HAWK pads, those more expensive also US made pads stop fine when cold but are more switch like. The Carbotech pads have very linear pedal feel. Fits my aggressive stops from ~60 mph when I turn onto a rural road from a 4 lane highway every time I leave my home.
The guy you quote first loses all credibility to your argument in my opinion - the aptly named village idiot claims the power stops were 'almost dangerous' because braking ability decreased that much. That's just absolute nonsense, unless he installed them incorrectly. As I've said, I drive pretty aggressively and noticed almost no difference in braking ability, and I know plenty of other users who have the same experience.
And you claim you don't care, yet you show up in every one of these threads with a home-made graphic and novel-sized posts... somethings rotten in Denmark.
Are the z51 pads same as base coupe? Carbotech use the same part # for both whereas other brake pad companies have different part #s. I just googled powerstop, it or miss on issues, saw 1 pic where there was a paper clip embedded in the pad.
Big difference when GM buys something from wherever, they have a spec and test product coming in to the spec.
LOL - tell that to the people who are dealing with cracked and/or bent wheels, or those dealing with the A8 drivetrain issues these cars are known for.
The guy you quote first loses all credibility to your argument in my opinion - the aptly named village idiot claims the power stops were 'almost dangerous' because braking ability decreased that much. That's just absolute nonsense, unless he installed them incorrectly. As I've said, I drive pretty aggressively and noticed almost no difference in braking ability, and I know plenty of other users who have the same experience.
And you claim you don't care, yet you show up in every one of these threads with a home-made graphic and novel-sized posts... somethings rotten in Denmark.
Actually he has some excellent posts despite his moniker! If you look, I waited for some time before responding to this thread! If it went away fine although I found the early statement from PowerStop strange: "Thank you for recent purchase of Power Stop Brakes. I have only since one case of the brake rotors turning brown i have not seen another case like that. We have sold hundreds of this brake pads to different vendors that have sold them to customers. It could had been the material exchange between the pad and rotor due to that vehicle having Iron & Ceramic rotors. Chemical reaction when the bedding procedure was done."
I didn't comment but was reminded what I told our “phone doctors" after hearing customer and distributor comments." Reminded them never to say "1st time I have heard of that problem- even if it was!" That is NOT what someone calling want's to hear (about their welding or plasma cutting machine-that was my business not cars- they are a hobby.)
However one post that said something about Wecker3's being the only one with brown rotors - made me respond.
Being retired for 19 years and an old Hot Rodder I have many C7 Mods and some 25+ PDF's I have made on "How To--" for folks like me who are not full time mechanics." I get many positive PM's about them and how they are helpful.. Frankly before I bought PowerStop pads, while my Grand Sport was being built, I read a lot of forum comments and sent PM's to folks who said that they worked fine. I don't blame them, only myself for thinking 8 large quality brake pads could be made for under $75/$80 (after considering the shipping costs and profit made my the importer PowerStop, Amazon and UPS who delivered them for $125 including SC 6% sales tax!)
Since we sold our >>100 million dollar business in 4 years at twice the purchase price to a Swedish company been there many times. I can assure you any smell is not Surstromming (fermented herring- called rotten herring!)
I make the PDF's for forum folks as I provide this info on my experience with brake pads on my 2014 Z51 and Grand Sport All the pics posted are in my PDFs. I just post from my files. Have a lot more and more detailed graphics in my PDF re aerodynamics!
I enjoy doing it and is different than writing the two books for the Cartech Pro Series I did in 2012 and 2015! The first (out of print) entitled "Advanced Automotive Welding." Royalties still coming in from the 2nd!
Note I drive aggressively as well and have said the PowerStop pads stop fine when warm/hot. It's their cold pad performance where I had a issue. In fact would have that with Carborech racing pads- look at the min max pad temp data I provide. It reminded me of the metal brakes I had on my modified Corvair (although not that bad.) My driveway had a steep slope and in the morning it took 2 feet to stop when backing into the street! Note drum brakes have no "self energizing" braking in reverse and metallic brakes need to be hot to stop well. They didn't fade!
04-28-2019, 09:50 PM
