z51vett

Well I know it’s a manual no v4 mode but lifters can fail and wipe out cam or cause valves to hit piston. So be aware of this any holes in block.
Im a victim of DOD failure myself no real damage on my part they took engine apart.
z51vett
Doug

RapidC84B

OK... where to start... been tracking these cars 20 years, instructor with NASA-MA, raced a C5 in ST2 a few years and TT'd a C7 the past 2 years (Z51 2014) and sold it this weekend... had the car on track 4-5X a year the past 2 years.

My $0.02.... you did absolutely nothing wrong. There was one down shift where the car hit 6700 rpms. That's the same RPM it hits if you use the OEM no-lift-shift feature and upshift holding the gas on the floor... you can watch peoples PDR videos using NLS and the rpms always jump into the red every upshift.

That was NOT a money shift.... a money shift i.e. going into 2nd on your 3/4 WOT upshift sends will max the tach. Fun fact... a buddy let me drive his 2015 Z06 when they were brand now... got it out on the road and hammered it and went 1 to 2 and then stuffed it back into first when trying for 3rd with the stock shifter.... rpms zing'd and I pushed clutch in instantly... no issues with the car but I felt very bad, he drove the car another 20K miles before selling w/o any issue.

Racing my C5 I had a couple instances I pulled 2nd on my 3-4 upshift in a very high G turn before I ditched the stock shifter for a MGW... no issues, but caught it very quickly each time.

My point... nothing you did there was outside of the operating range of the car. So what do you do? What happened?

1. Did you buy the car used? Any chance there was a true money shift in a past life and you just got screwed with the failure? Did you ever money shift it?

2. Lawyer up... make GM retain all evidence and data and parts... if your video shows everything that truly happened then I don't see how a 6,700 rpm slightly early downshfit will cause piston to valve contact?

Based on how quiet it was when it went it seems more like a timing chain failure... which will just shut the car down. If that happened of course the valves will hit the pistons.

What a pain in the ***.

EDIT:


This is far too vague... you need root cause failure analysis. Sounds like a field engineer phoning it in and doing the bare minimum.... you had one downshift that went a tinge over 6600 rpms.. that WILL NOT cause piston to valve contact.

JALLEN4

If the inspection does show damage as described and the OP did nothing wrong, why in your opinion a blown engine? You would think any good Corvette tech or certainly a GM Field Engineer could see the damage...or not. An over rev condition is pretty easy to detect. The OP needs another reason for the failure to have any chance of redemption.

RapidC84B

Did you watch his video? There is nothing there that would cause a motor to fail. After an over-rev where valves hit pistons and bend valves the car should start to run like crap. Usually a dropped valve is a catastrophic failure with lots of noise and carnage. His car just shuts down... could be a myriad of things. It's chicken or the egg.... which came first? There are a lot of things that can cause piston/valve contact and not be the roof cause i.e. timing chain failure. You can also have a valve fail which grenades the motor and you can have piston to valve contact as the motor is letting go.

OP needs a lawyer and GM needs to show exactly how the over-rev caused the failure... IMO the vanilla response he quoted is a field engineer seeing valve marks on a piston then seeing rpm data showing a 6,700 rpm down shift and saying "GOTCHA!" GM can wiggle out of this one. Probably a new field engineer or someone junior who is going by the letter of the law vs. the intent of the law.

I'd get a lawyer and force GM to show me how the 6,700 rpm over-rev caused the failure...

Null Pointer

By the time he did that, and paid the legal fees, he could probably afford a new crate engine and a spare. GM has the resources to make this a very long, expensive, drawn out legal affair if it wants to.

RapidC84B

I agree... but he was quoted $25,000 to replace the motor at the dealer which is nuts. You can get a new LT1 crate motor around $10K from Summit racing.

JALLEN4

Yes, I did watch it. It does not though show the other mileage on the vehicle as it occurred. We do not know that previous abuse did not contribute to the ultimate failure.

I respect your experience in this area but on the other hand, I have been involved in a number of these disputes with GM in real time as a participant. They have an entire staff of attorneys and a plethora of mechanical experts. I will guarantee you they are not simply trying to "beat" a warranty claim but rather are willing to stake their reputation on their facts.

There needs to be a reasonable and supportable alternative theory brought forward with credible people supporting it. GM has made a judgement and are willing to defend it because they obviously have a lot more at stake than a $20,000 engine. I would highly suggest asking for a meeting with the Dealer Principle and the GM field rep to attempt to reach some sort of a settlement. Or, produce a very credible expert that will attest to some other cause of failure. The engine is evidently sitting there torn down and easy to inspect.

Tom Letkewicz

Thanks for the experienced information

1. Car was bought new
2. I only tracked the car 9 total days
3. I have NEVER had a money shift. I have never gone from 4th to 2nd or 4th to 1st. If I couldn't lie about being on the track I am not lying about shifting.

Question: Can a GM representative look at damaged parts and conclude the car was over revved??

I am trying to get the data they used to conclude over revving and at this point they are not providing anything......just denied warranty.

I ask to speak to a higher up in customer care, GM response:

"Good afternoon. I'm looking into something to see if I can get more info for you. There is no one higher than the reps. Plus, the reps aren't customer facing. That's why we are here to act as the bridge between customers and the representatives. "

I am trying to contact a lawyer that deals in these matters to get an idea if I have a case. Not many lawyers in my area that deal with consumer protection that did not involve injury.

AORoads

While I understand most of what Tool H. has written, I do think the above highlighted paragraph makes sense to get to a resolution and as quickly as possible. And my opinion is that probably the only person who can ask for or request this involvement with the field rep is the dealer. I also hope this gets resolved but it may not.

TXshaggy

GM says there was piston- valve collision that precipitated failure. Other than a significant over rev what could have caused this damage?

RapidC84B

At this point I think your only route is a lawyer... the dealer, no matter how awesome, isn't going to spend tens of thousands when GM says, "You won't be reimbursed". I think you have a field engineer who has made an error... there is nothing in that video that would cause failure from over-rev. You had one early downshift that did take RPM to 6,700, but that's only 100 rpm over fuel cut and the car does that on ever no-lift-shift upshift which is warrantied.

Technically the data shows a 100 rpm over-rev on a down shift (going off your video). It appears to me the engineer sees that and is trying to get out of paying... whether or not that actually caused failure. You'd have to have an extreme over-rev for the valves to float and hit the pistons. I'd want to see the pistons/valves and make GM show you the data leading to their conclusion. However, only a lawyer will have any leverage to get them to do anything.

You could take it to another shop and pay for an independent diagnosis, but not sure if they will have to tools to read all the data like the dealer.

Lastly, if you do decided to not fight it... $25,000 for an engine is a joke.... you can get a brand new crate LT1 for around $10K if not slighly less. There's not $15,000 in labor to install a motor. However, if the lubrication system was contaminated you may need a new dry sump tank, oil lines, oil coooler etc. They make have a new cooling system on the list too if they feel metal got in there too.

RapidC84B

Broken timing chain, dropped valve destroying engine and pistons/valves hit as engine is breaking up, seized lifter causing motor to go, etc. Piston/valve contact can be the symptom of a motor letting go and not the cause.

OP needs a detailed causal analysis... what happened, in what order, and why.

TXshaggy

Regarding the broken timing chain I thought the LT1 was a non interference motor...yes/no?

RapidC84B

LS and new gen LT motors are interference motors. Old LT motors are not.

kennyjames21

GM should have to prove that in court to deny warranty. The problem is, they have a team of lawyers and a lot of money and time to deal with court, their customers, not so much. And of course they know this, so they deny warranty claims and dare their customers to fight them in court, knowing it's too costly for said customer to make it worthwhile. All big companies do this. It's pathetic, but obviously the system is stupidly tilted in favor of big business.

Bottom line is, buying a new crate engine and having it installed is going to be cheaper (and FAR less time and aggravation intensive) than fighting GM in court, even if the OP wins his case. It shouldn't be that way, but that is just the way it is.

Elk

GM states "all the valves had hit the pistons." If true, this is a massive valve train failure consistent with a significantly over-revved engine. But, for example, if it is an interference engine a broken timing chain could also cause this.

kratedisease

Tommy,

I feel for you, but I really think you are spinning your wheels and wasting valuable time at the dealer.
By now you would have been driving a brand new Corvette if you had not bothered with the dealer looking for " Justice"

At this point just take the car to a remote location and torch it !! pour gas all over it, and light that puppy up !!

Then call your insurance and tell them the car was stolen !!

$500 deductible and you have a new Corvette !! YAY

Oh, and make sure you don't get caught !!

( legal disclaimer : THIS POST IS A SATIRE)

1SG_Ret

If you have deep pockets, get an attorney and roll the dice on disputing GM's finding. Personally I think that is a loser from the start You'll have attorney fees in addition to the cost of a new motor). Depending on how this will be litigated, if the books says 6500RPM and evidence shows 6700RPM, you lose. If on the other hand, book says 6500 and evidence shows 6300, I'd go to court (and win).

TXshaggy

The evidence is the disassembled motor, what the PDR shows near failure is not necessarily evidence of anything other than conditions around the time of failure. Conditions leading to failure could have been hours in the past.

Too bad the car doesn’t permanently record over rev conditions like modern Porsche; the data file would be conclusive.

1SG_Ret

Agreed, but my point was, the PDR does not help his case (and could likely decide it against him) should he proceed with a lawyer.