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^^^
No, I'm stating that I was foolish to try to save a few bucks on a critical item like brake pads when I knew what worked great with the OEM pads for 6 months and Carbotech 1521 pads for 3 years on my Z51!
For folks that understand racing versus street pads a min ~250 F pad temp to stop best (a typical race pad) is fine on the Track, like tires that must be warm for max traction. If you can't understand the data I present, assume you also never had "metallic brakes" on a car in-the-day! They were more like the Carbotech endurance racing pads that need to be hotter than >250F to stop well! My first new car ordered with every HD option offered had those and was terrible and when coming to your first light - had to be careful. Oh you could stop but had to push hard!
I'm NOT defending paying more for a quality paid and understand "my stupidity" for picking cheap Chinese pads partly because of forum folks who didn't understand the issue and were posting in the forum! Not blaming them as they didn't know better, just trying to let folks making a decision understand the issue!
^^^
No, I'm stating that I was foolish to try to save a few bucks on a critical item like brake pads when I knew what worked great with the OEM pads for 6 months and Carbotech 1521 pads for 3 years on my Z51!
For folks that understand racing versus street pads a min ~250 F pad temp to stop best (a typical race pad) is fine on the Track, like tires that must be warm for max traction. If you can't understand the data I present, assume you also never had "metallic brakes" on a car in-the-day! They were more like the Carbotech endurance racing pads that need to be hotter than >250F to stop well! My first new car ordered with every HD option offered had those and was terrible and when coming to your first light - had to be careful. Oh you could stop but had to push hard!
I'm NOT defending paying more for a quality paid and understand "my stupidity" for picking cheap Chinese pads partly because of forum folks who didn't understand the issue and were posting in the forum! Not blaming them as they didn't know better, just trying to let folks making a decision understand the issue!
Stupidity is paying $300 more for pads that offer no advantages and dust more.
You are the only poster ive seen who claims powerstops have cold stop issues and the number you are using to claim there is a problem is the one you made up yourself.
So ]folks who understand what a good argument is can plainly see your argument is browning this forum...
^^^He has no argument other than fake, homemade data. Look up Carbotech xp21 from his chart, doesn't exist! And when you start to see through his BS he will claim you're a Chinese operative!
Yup, go to your user CP and add them to your ignore list. I know how you feel. He's his own biggest fan.
Yep, That's It! That will do it!
PS: A expected Tweddle Dee and Tweddle Dumb are at it again! Might remind them of a PM I got the last time both were posting trash. Keeps me going! "Jerry,
Just wanted to say thanks for your expert reviews and technical “how to’s”. I have used several and the information you present is always well laid out for novices like me to follow. Much appreciated!
Also wanted to comment on the handful of “bottom feeders” who appear to have no life other than to attack your posts on PowerStop pads. It’s truly disgusting to read their endless personal insults. I don’t think they realize the majority of forum members are laughing AT THEM, not WITH THEM. I’ve added the miscreants to my ignore list as I’m guessing many other forum members have."
PS: A expected Tweddle Dee and Tweddle Dumb are at it again! Might remind them of a PM I got the last time both were posting trash. Keeps me going! "Jerry,
Just wanted to say thanks for your expert reviews and technical “how to’s”. I have used several and the information you present is always well laid out for novices like me to follow. Much appreciated!
Also wanted to comment on the handful of “bottom feeders” who appear to have no life other than to attack your posts on PowerStop pads. It’s truly disgusting to read their endless personal insults. I don’t think they realize the majority of forum members are laughing AT THEM, not WITH THEM. I’ve added the miscreants to my ignore list as I’m guessing many other forum members have."
PS: A expected Tweddle Dee and Tweddle dumb are at it again! Might remind them of a PM I got the last time both were posting trash. Keeps me going! "Jerry,
Just wanted to say thanks for your expert reviews and technical “how to’s”. I have used several and the information you present is always well laid out for novices like me to follow. Much appreciated!
Also wanted to comment on the handful of “bottom feeders” who appear to have no life other than to attack your posts on PowerStop pads. It’s truly disgusting to read their endless personal insults. I don’t think they realize the majority of forum members are laughing AT THEM, not WITH THEM. I’ve added the miscreants to my ignore list as I’m guessing many other forum members have."
I'm attacking your feeble arguments, not you personally.
Now when you resort to namecalling, like you do here, that is a personal attack, and a good sign that you are losing the argument. More evidence is when you resort to posting silly pictures and secret nessages. How old are you man?
Last edited by kennyjames21; 06-12-2019 at 11:19 AM.
It might just be someone else who got called out on their bullshit.
Pretty ironic though that in the same post where he seems to be bashing your ignore suggestion, his "superfan message guy" says he put us on ignore, lol.
Jeez - you guys are being rough on Jerry. Everyone is entitled to post their opinions. The guy contributes a lot to this forum.
Just being rough on his arguments regarding brake pads, because his arguments are garbage on this topic.
He's the only one making it personal with the childish name calling and his implication that anyone who chooses power stops is stupid. We all contribute to this forum but nobody's opinion should be beyond scrutiny and there is no reason to resort to personal attacks. I think you're defending the wrong side in this case.
I didn't go with the Extreme, i just went with the regular ones. Got them off amazon for like $85. Produce almost zero brake dust which is a blessing. Performance, it's not as good as the Brembo's. Anyone who tells you different is lying or they have no sense of performance. The initial bite of the Brembo's is incredible. With the powerstops, it takes a bit more pressure. I wouldn't use these on the track at all. But if you are daily driving, going to car shows, maybe a drive through the mountains, these are perfectly acceptable. And changing the pads is beyond easy. I have no browning. I would say buy em and forget about the brake dust.
I had Carbotech pads on my Z51. The performance felt similar to the Brembo's, very similar. But the dust was still an issue. It dusted less than the Brembo's but it was still more than I wanted.
Post # 10 From HorsePower_Junkie CF Member since 2001
"JerryU,
Thank you for all the many, many, many extremely helpful and very, very thoughtful posts, and untold number of extremely well done write-ups, photos, and digrams you so generously do for us, and share with us.
I salute you Sir for your valiant efforts, diligent research, and accomplishments we all benefit so much from!"
Just being rough on his arguments regarding brake pads, because his arguments are garbage on this topic.
He's the only one making it personal with the childish name calling and his implication that anyone who chooses power stops is stupid. We all contribute to this forum but nobody's opinion should be beyond scrutiny and there is no reason to resort to personal attacks. I think you're defending the wrong side in this case.
Guess you didn't read my Post #9 on this Thread, where I quote two others.: Z06NJ CF Senior Member "Initially you will feel that you have to step harder to make them brake the same as OEM. That's because all you know up to that time are the OEM brakes. However, with time, it becomes like muscle memory. Now I just brake like normal and don't even think about it.
But I'll never forget the 1st day I got them installed and I was driving home, I was like "WTF's going on here...I'm gonna end up rear ending somebody" LOL But you get used to them."
Runner61627 CF Senior Member "Have had both the PowerStop’s and Carbotechs. On my previous Vette-a 2015 3LT Z51, the PowerStops eliminated most brake dust, but noticeable reduction in stopping power. Some folks reported discolored rotors. The Carbotechs are on my Grand Sport now and take care of the brake dust without any reduction in stopping power and no discoloring of the rotors. While more expensive, the Carbotechs – in my experience – are the better choice."
^^^ A couple of posts that are how old, compared to how many satisfied customers posts? You cling to whatever you can huh.
Have you actually done any real world testing on breaking distances with any pads? And not just your fake data, saying they "feel" like they don't stop as good or your story about your death-defying turn leaving your home. Actual testing with solid proof of your claims. Ill wait . . . . ..
H^^^
Hmm They are not old posts! Did you read a post from today, #31. Key point he said; "Performance, it's not as good as the Brembo's. Anyone who tells you different is lying or they have no sense of performance. The initial bite of the Brembo's is incredible. " He obviously knows what he's talking about re braking- you obviously don't!
I have been driving performance cars as my DD for 60 years, had metallic brakes on my first new car "in the day!" When the brakes were cold (even on a 100F day-has nothing to do with ambient temp) it stopped worse than PowerStops!
I also managed and R&D Lab and no way would I try to set up a system that measured cold pad braking! Need Brembo resources to even consider that. Have to measure pedal pressure, braking deceleration, stopping distances, have the same pavement and tire temps, etc, etc! After test 1 there would be rubber on the road, have to do many repeats in a random sequence! Wouldn't mean anything to you even if I did and SAE certify the results!
H^^^
Hmm They are not old posts! Did you read a post from today, #31. Key point he said; "Performance, it's not as good as the Brembo's. Anyone who tells you different is lying or they have no sense of performance. The initial bite of the Brembo's is incredible. " He obviously knows what he's talking about re braking- you obviously don't!
I have been driving performance cars as my DD for 60 years, had metallic brakes on my first new car "in the day!" When the brakes were cold (even on a 100F day-has nothing to do with ambient temp) it stopped worse than PowerStops!
I also managed and R&D Lab and no way would I try to set up a system that measured cold pad braking! Need Brembo resources to even consider that. Have to measure pedal pressure, braking deceleration, stopping distances, have the same pavement and tire temps, etc, etc! After test 1 there would be rubber on the road, have to do many repeats in a random sequence! Wouldn't mean anything to you even if I did and SAE certify the results!
So in other words, you have nothing! I've been modding performance cars and building SEMA trucks for a while myself. And guess what, it makes me an expert at absolutely nothing! Just like you.
So the other poster knows what he's talking about, re-braking because he agrees with your BS? I don't because I call you out on your BS? Ok, got it... Makes perfect sense now.
So in other words, you have nothing! I've been modding performance cars and building SEMA trucks for a while myself. And guess what, it makes me an expert at absolutely nothing! Just like you.
So the other poster knows what he's talking about, re-braking because he agrees with your BS? I don't because I call you out on your BS? Ok, got it... Makes perfect sense now.
Call me out? You have never tried to address what PowerStop publishes, their "street pads" are good to 1500F. They don't publish the cold pad temps and there is an SAE test for that. Carbotech publishes the low and high temps for all their pads, the Street 1521's are 50F (note that is NOT the outside temp, it's the pad temp to get max stopping power!) The Chinese have no "secret way" to make a 1500F high temp pad work at 50F! From other "quality pad data" 1500F racing pads typically have a min ~250F pad temp to get max stopping power. Fact is, GM put good stopping cold pads on so that first stop after an interstate drive is consistent and stops well. The Carbotech street pads do the same.
Call me out? You have never tried to address what PowerStop publishes, their "street pads" are good to 1500F. They don't publish the cold pad temps and there is an SAE test for that. Carbotech publishes the low and high temps for all their pads, the Street 1521's are 50F (note that is NOT the outside temp, it's the pad temp to get max stopping power!) The Chinese have no "secret way" to make a 1500F high temp pad work at 50F! From other "quality pad data" 1500F racing pads typically have a min ~250F pad temp to get max stopping power. Fact is, GM put good stopping cold pads on so that first stop after an interstate drive is consistent and stops well. The Carbotech street pads do the same.
Your car or truck do as you wish!
You know why I don't address it, because I don't know why/if they don't post the data. Or if there's been any actual testing for the data. And unlike you, I don't just fill in the blanks with fake numbers. You said it yourself, they don't post it so you took it upon yourself to make it up! And the XP21 you like to use so much as a measuring tool doesn't even exist. Yet another made up lie from you.
Other "quality data" has nothing to do with Powerstop data or any other brand of pads. You're simply taking bits and pieces of information and adjusting them to fit your agenda. The rest you make up.
I'm sure you are the savior of the CF with your PDFs but you're doing nothing but misleading people that may not know any better with this one.
And you're absolutely right.... Our vehicles our choice. So let people make the choice without forcing your fake BS down their throats. The OP asked about the different levels of PS pads and nothing else.
You know why I don't address it, because I don't know why/if they don't post the data. ...
The OP asked about the different levels of PS pads and nothing else.
Hmm, did the OP ask the right question? Wish I had and someone had the answer! Here goes:
I pride myself in being able to teach "arc physics" without every mentioning the word! But when I did the research to find out why I wasted $125 buying PowerStop brake pads I got all wrapped up in brake letter codes and SAE multipage specifications. Here is some info that will put most to sleep, in a short discussion, starting with some quotes :
"At what temperature do your brake pads start to work? At what temperature do they stop working? The original brake pads that came with your production car operated best in the 100° to 650° range. Race pads operate best in the 600° to 1500° range. Race pads are just getting effective at roughly the same point where the OEM pads are becoming useless.
A wide operating temperature range is important for driving enthusiasts so that brakes are effective when cold and resist fade when hot. Brake fade is when brake pads, brake rotors and/or brake fluid are heated so much that they lose some of their ability to slow the vehicle effectively."
SAE J866A test procedure, provides a uniform means of identification that may be used to describe the initial frictional characteristic of any brake lining. There are letter grades that are assigned to cold and hot pads at specific brake pad temperatures. The low temp test temp is 250F for DOT purposes. However that provides only a rough idea of pad performance and does not cover modulation, the value achieved within each spec level etc. The test can be extended to a wider temperature test range.
Hawk, another quality pad company also lists the operating range of their many race pad compounds, yep there are tests and reputable brake pad companies provide the data. There is no magic that allows wider ranges, therefor the 1500F max PowerStop lists will NOT give great stopping with room temp pads. Don't know what the OEM Brembo pads max temperatures are, could not find that BUT many avid trackers by higher temp racing pads- scarifying cold pad performance NOT needed on the Track.:
Hawk DCT-80 (500F to 1700F)
Hawk DCT-70 (400F to 1600F)
Hawk DCT-60 (400F to 1600F)
They have 5 other compounds Hawk DCT -50, DCT-30, DCT-10, DCT-9012, DR-97. One Hawk Street Pad at TireRack cost about the same as Carbotech 1521 Street Pads.
You can read my PDF with a lot of brake pad info BUT I don't even go into the SAE tests there, would put most Forum folks to sleep!
SIDEBAR- unrelated topic
Since I mentioned teaching "arc physics" without every mentioning the word and I love the use of pictures, this is one of ~300 from my latest of 2 books Published by CarTech in their Pro Sires (they love pics and long captions since that is what most folks read! Have a number of side bars with bits of metallurgy 101 they also like.)
That latest book won an International Automotive Media Silver Metal Award in 2016 from a London based organization! That included TV, Internet video's etc. If a "doubting Thomas" would like the announcement article published the American Welding Societies monthly Journal with a pic of the silver metal, PM! (I don't write books, only went through the requested effort to help get more young folks into the welding profession and show it's depth! )
The question I ask, welding engineers, foreman, robot welder technicians and even welders is what causes the wire in MIG (also called wire welding, formally GMAW) to melt? I give the first clue- it has nothing to do with the hot arc! The answer has implications on maintaining weld quality by controlling the amount the wire sticks out of the tip.
It's two elements, resistant heating (that pic has an equation so I didn't include it here) but this one is the dominant factor. Takes energy to get electrons out of the plate surface and then into the wire. It's that surface energy at the wire/arc interface that provides most of the energy to melt the wire!
06-12-2019, 08:40 AM
