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Hmm, did the OP ask the right question? Wish I had and someone had the answer! Here goes:
I pride myself in being able to teach "arc physics" without every mentioning the word! But when I did the research to find out why I wasted $125 buying PowerStop brake pads I got all wrapped up in brake letter codes and SAE multipage specifications. Here is some info that will put most to sleep, in a short discussion, starting with some quotes :
"At what temperature do your brake pads start to work? At what temperature do they stop working? The original brake pads that came with your production car operated best in the 100° to 650° range. Race pads operate best in the 600° to 1500° range. Race pads are just getting effective at roughly the same point where the OEM pads are becoming useless.
A wide operating temperature range is important for driving enthusiasts so that brakes are effective when cold and resist fade when hot. Brake fade is when brake pads, brake rotors and/or brake fluid are heated so much that they lose some of their ability to slow the vehicle effectively."
SAE J866A test procedure, provides a uniform means of identification that may be used to describe the initial frictional characteristic of any brake lining. There are letter grades that are assigned to cold and hot pads at specific brake pad temperatures. The low temp test temp is 250F for DOT purposes. However that provides only a rough idea of pad performance and does not cover modulation, the value achieved within each spec level etc. The test can be extended to a wider temperature test range.
Hawk, another quality pad company also lists the operating range of their many race pad compounds, yep there are tests and reputable brake pad companies provide the data. There is no magic that allows wider ranges, therefor the 1500F max PowerStop lists will NOT give great stopping with room temp pads. Don't know what the OEM Brembo pads max temperatures are, could not find that BUT many avid trackers by higher temp racing pads- scarifying cold pad performance NOT needed on the Track.:
Hawk DCT-80 (500F to 1700F)
Hawk DCT-70 (400F to 1600F)
Hawk DCT-60 (400F to 1600F)
They have 5 other compounds Hawk DCT -50, DCT-30, DCT-10, DCT-9012, DR-97. One Hawk Street Pad at TireRack cost about the same as Carbotech 1521 Street Pads.
You can read my PDF with a lot of brake pad info BUT I don't even go into the SAE tests there, would put most Forum folks to sleep!
SIDEBAR- unrelated topic
Since I mentioned teaching "arc physics" without every mentioning the word and I love the use of pictures, this is one of ~300 from my latest of 2 books Published by CarTech in their Pro Sires (they love pics and long captions since that is what most folks read! Have a number of side bars with bits of metallurgy 101 they also like.)
That latest book won an International Automotive Media Silver Metal Award in 2016 from a London based organization! That included TV, Internet video's etc. If a "doubting Thomas" would like the announcement article published the American Welding Societies monthly Journal with a pic of the silver metal, PM! (I don't write books, only went through the requested effort to help get more young folks into the welding profession and show it's depth! )
The question I ask, welding engineers, foreman, robot welder technicians and even welders is what causes the wire in MIG (also called wire welding, formally GMAW) to melt? I give the first clue- it has nothing to do with the hot arc! The answer has implications on maintaining weld quality by controlling the amount the wire sticks out of the tip.
It's two elements, resistant heating (that pic has an equation so I didn't include it here) but this one is the dominant factor. Takes energy to get electrons out of the plate surface and then into the wire. It's that surface energy at the wire/arc interface that provides most of the energy to melt the wire!
Sorry but I have to have fun as well!
OK, I'm guessing most of you can see the crazy now.
I'll keep it simple - you can see the countless power stop posts and you will see 99% of the people who post that use them are very happy with them. They do not brown the rotors, they produce almost no dust on the wheels and offer excellent stopping power for street use (they are not track pads, you will obviously feel a difference in performance on a track vs the oem pads).
I have 3,000 miles on my GS with Z26 Power Stop pads and stock rotors. I cannot tell any difference in stopping, don’t track car, and rotors are shiny with no hint of browning.
They produce virtually no dust on the wheels. I have black wheels and the rest of my car shows more dirt when its time for a wash than my wheels, lol. With the oems, my wheels were covered in brake dust after 100 miles or so.
I didn't go with the Extreme, i just went with the regular ones. Got them off amazon for like $85. Produce almost zero brake dust which is a blessing. Performance, it's not as good as the Brembo's. Anyone who tells you different is lying or they have no sense of performance. The initial bite of the Brembo's is incredible. With the powerstops, it takes a bit more pressure. I wouldn't use these on the track at all. But if you are daily driving, going to car shows, maybe a drive through the mountains, these are perfectly acceptable. And changing the pads is beyond easy. I have no browning. I would say buy em and forget about the brake dust.
I had Carbotech pads on my Z51. The performance felt similar to the Brembo's, very similar. But the dust was still an issue. It dusted less than the Brembo's but it was still more than I wanted.
Hmm, did the OP ask the right question? Wish I had and someone had the answer! Here goes:
I pride myself in being able to teach "arc physics" without every mentioning the word! But when I did the research to find out why I wasted $125 buying PowerStop brake pads I got all wrapped up in brake letter codes and SAE multipage specifications. Here is some info that will put most to sleep, in a short discussion, starting with some quotes :
"At what temperature do your brake pads start to work? At what temperature do they stop working? The original brake pads that came with your production car operated best in the 100° to 650° range. Race pads operate best in the 600° to 1500° range. Race pads are just getting effective at roughly the same point where the OEM pads are becoming useless.
A wide operating temperature range is important for driving enthusiasts so that brakes are effective when cold and resist fade when hot. Brake fade is when brake pads, brake rotors and/or brake fluid are heated so much that they lose some of their ability to slow the vehicle effectively."
SAE J866A test procedure, provides a uniform means of identification that may be used to describe the initial frictional characteristic of any brake lining. There are letter grades that are assigned to cold and hot pads at specific brake pad temperatures. The low temp test temp is 250F for DOT purposes. However that provides only a rough idea of pad performance and does not cover modulation, the value achieved within each spec level etc. The test can be extended to a wider temperature test range.
Hawk, another quality pad company also lists the operating range of their many race pad compounds, yep there are tests and reputable brake pad companies provide the data. There is no magic that allows wider ranges, therefor the 1500F max PowerStop lists will NOT give great stopping with room temp pads. Don't know what the OEM Brembo pads max temperatures are, could not find that BUT many avid trackers by higher temp racing pads- scarifying cold pad performance NOT needed on the Track.:
Hawk DCT-80 (500F to 1700F)
Hawk DCT-70 (400F to 1600F)
Hawk DCT-60 (400F to 1600F)
They have 5 other compounds Hawk DCT -50, DCT-30, DCT-10, DCT-9012, DR-97. One Hawk Street Pad at TireRack cost about the same as Carbotech 1521 Street Pads.
You can read my PDF with a lot of brake pad info BUT I don't even go into the SAE tests there, would put most Forum folks to sleep!
SIDEBAR- unrelated topic
Since I mentioned teaching "arc physics" without every mentioning the word and I love the use of pictures, this is one of ~300 from my latest of 2 books Published by CarTech in their Pro Sires (they love pics and long captions since that is what most folks read! Have a number of side bars with bits of metallurgy 101 they also like.)
That latest book won an International Automotive Media Silver Metal Award in 2016 from a London based organization! That included TV, Internet video's etc. If a "doubting Thomas" would like the announcement article published the American Welding Societies monthly Journal with a pic of the silver metal, PM! (I don't write books, only went through the requested effort to help get more young folks into the welding profession and show it's depth! )
The question I ask, welding engineers, foreman, robot welder technicians and even welders is what causes the wire in MIG (also called wire welding, formally GMAW) to melt? I give the first clue- it has nothing to do with the hot arc! The answer has implications on maintaining weld quality by controlling the amount the wire sticks out of the tip.
It's two elements, resistant heating (that pic has an equation so I didn't include it here) but this one is the dominant factor. Takes energy to get electrons out of the plate surface and then into the wire. It's that surface energy at the wire/arc interface that provides most of the energy to melt the wire!
Sorry but I have to have fun as well!
Do the z23 pads have better lower temp stopping power than the z26? Seems they are more for street use. I have a c7 z06 and am looking for mainly street with some spirited 40 rolls once in a while.
OK, I'm guessing most of you can see the crazy now.
I'll keep it simple - you can see the countless power stop posts and you will see 99% of the people who post that use them are very happy with them. They do not brown the rotors, they produce almost no dust on the wheels and offer excellent stopping power for street use (they are not track pads, you will obviously feel a difference in performance on a track vs the oem pads).
Z23 or Z26 on my z06 and is there much difference in dust? I’m looking for mainly street with some spirited 40 rolls once in a while.
Do the z23 pads have better lower temp stopping power than the z26? Seems they are more for street use. I have a c7 z06 and am looking for mainly street with some spirited 40 rolls once in a while.
Interesting! Originally it was said by Forum Folks the only difference was the rubber on the back of the pad and the "pad material" was the same! You can look at old posts. The Z26 were recommended and what I bought. But just found this statement from PowerStop:
"While the Z26 pads best suit high horsepower cars and big wheel upgrades, the Z23 pads best suit daily-driver, medium horsepower cars. The Z23 pads' carbon fiber/ceramic matrix compound resists fade up to 1200 degrees Fahrenheit."
That is more than enough for even aggressive street driving, unless you are "canyon carving" out in CA!
Don't know when that change occurred but a max 1200F has a good probability of having a lower cold temp performance.
Glad you're looking and per post #31 don't believe some of the BS from a few posters. Now he says he didn't go with the Extreme Z26 so assume he used Z23. You might send him a PM and ask about initial bite and pedal modulation versus the Brembo you have now.
I had the Z26 pads on for ~2, years 6000 miles. They braked fine and produced very little dust but discolored my rotors badly. Maybe they have revised their formula to remedy that issue but I will never use their stuff again since they refuse to stand behind their products and I simply don't trust them. See the last post (#78) in this thread for pictures of my stock rotors on Powerstop and after recent replacement with EBC.
So the regular pads people are referring to are the Z23! And the performance are z26? Anyone know the difference in dust between the two?
Yes sir, street pads Z23, performance Z26. BTW, mine has been on for 500+ miles on the Z23's, and the rotors are fine. Both have little to no dust as they are the same pads. The only difference is the backing on the Z26 pads are designed to handle more heat.
Last edited by Rebel Yell; 06-13-2019 at 01:13 PM.
Besides all the OT talk, I'm curious to know how hot our (OEM) brakes get after a 1320' race(s). I can usually only get 3, maybe 4 runs over a 6hr period (Bandimere Spdwy is VERY busy), so brake fade isn't an issue, but I'm curious as to how hot. I might bump to the Z26s just out of pure paranoia.
There is a way to check how hot the rotors got without telemetry! Similar to the Temple Sticks we use in welding to check temp. Changing paint color with temperature! One company (TBM Brakes) sells them up to 1600 F.
Hmm, did the OP ask the right question? Wish I had and someone had the answer! Here goes:
I pride myself in being able to teach "arc physics" without every mentioning the word! But when I did the research to find out why I wasted $125 buying PowerStop brake pads I got all wrapped up in brake letter codes and SAE multipage specifications. Here is some info that will put most to sleep, in a short discussion, starting with some quotes :
"At what temperature do your brake pads start to work? At what temperature do they stop working? The original brake pads that came with your production car operated best in the 100° to 650° range. Race pads operate best in the 600° to 1500° range. Race pads are just getting effective at roughly the same point where the OEM pads are becoming useless.
A wide operating temperature range is important for driving enthusiasts so that brakes are effective when cold and resist fade when hot. Brake fade is when brake pads, brake rotors and/or brake fluid are heated so much that they lose some of their ability to slow the vehicle effectively."
SAE J866A test procedure, provides a uniform means of identification that may be used to describe the initial frictional characteristic of any brake lining. There are letter grades that are assigned to cold and hot pads at specific brake pad temperatures. The low temp test temp is 250F for DOT purposes. However that provides only a rough idea of pad performance and does not cover modulation, the value achieved within each spec level etc. The test can be extended to a wider temperature test range.
Hawk, another quality pad company also lists the operating range of their many race pad compounds, yep there are tests and reputable brake pad companies provide the data. There is no magic that allows wider ranges, therefor the 1500F max PowerStop lists will NOT give great stopping with room temp pads. Don't know what the OEM Brembo pads max temperatures are, could not find that BUT many avid trackers by higher temp racing pads- scarifying cold pad performance NOT needed on the Track.:
Hawk DCT-80 (500F to 1700F)
Hawk DCT-70 (400F to 1600F)
Hawk DCT-60 (400F to 1600F)
They have 5 other compounds Hawk DCT -50, DCT-30, DCT-10, DCT-9012, DR-97. One Hawk Street Pad at TireRack cost about the same as Carbotech 1521 Street Pads.
You can read my PDF with a lot of brake pad info BUT I don't even go into the SAE tests there, would put most Forum folks to sleep!
SIDEBAR- unrelated topic
Since I mentioned teaching "arc physics" without every mentioning the word and I love the use of pictures, this is one of ~300 from my latest of 2 books Published by CarTech in their Pro Sires (they love pics and long captions since that is what most folks read! Have a number of side bars with bits of metallurgy 101 they also like.)
That latest book won an International Automotive Media Silver Metal Award in 2016 from a London based organization! That included TV, Internet video's etc. If a "doubting Thomas" would like the announcement article published the American Welding Societies monthly Journal with a pic of the silver metal, PM! (I don't write books, only went through the requested effort to help get more young folks into the welding profession and show it's depth! )
The question I ask, welding engineers, foreman, robot welder technicians and even welders is what causes the wire in MIG (also called wire welding, formally GMAW) to melt? I give the first clue- it has nothing to do with the hot arc! The answer has implications on maintaining weld quality by controlling the amount the wire sticks out of the tip.
It's two elements, resistant heating (that pic has an equation so I didn't include it here) but this one is the dominant factor. Takes energy to get electrons out of the plate surface and then into the wire. It's that surface energy at the wire/arc interface that provides most of the energy to melt the wire!
Z23 or Z26 on my z06 and is there much difference in dust? I’m looking for mainly street with some spirited 40 rolls once in a while.
the z23 and z26 are almost identical except for an improved heat backing on the z26 pads. I got the z26 pads as they weren't much more expensive than the z23s. Either one will work for what you are doing, and both will dust far, far less than the stock pads.
I've been rocking the Z26 pads for a few years now and no issues. I notice that when cold, they don't bite quite like the stock Z51 Brembo pads, but I could still cause any passenger to face plant the dashboard with the Z26 pads, if they didn't have their seat belt on. I'll happy give up a little bite for the reduction of dust.
^^ Diogenes found another! Join some others who were willing to admit they observed the issue! Been saying that for two years and in post #9 site the reason and two more posters who said the same. Post #31, nikeair042, stated, quoting: "Performance, it's not as good as the Brembo's. Anyone who tells you different is lying or they have no sense of performance. The initial bite of the Brembo's is incredible."
Yep, I learned to deal with and even worse issue with cold metallic brakes ordered with every HD option offered for my first new car, "back-in-the day." Like those metallic brakes, PowerStops stop fine when warm/hot. But in my somewhat unique situation I could not live without the excellent initial bite and predictable modulation of the cold OEM Brembo pads.
I merge onto a 4 lane divided highway with 65+ mph traffic at the end of my street. Soon after I turn onto a narrow rural road so stop aggressively to avoid cars/trucks behind having to apply their brakes as I turn. You'll note Post #31, nikeair042 states: "I had Carbotech pads on my Z51. The performance felt similar to the Brembo's, very similar." That is what I found in 3 years with Carbotech 1521 pads on my Z51 so tossed the PowerStop pads I bought for my Grand Sport and installed Carbotech.
For 2 years, I'm back to confidently making those aggressive stops from 65+ mph every time I leave my house!
Just a tip related to the OP question on PowerStop pads.......as I've only used OE and Carbo Tech 1521 and XP42 racing pads I can tell you from a scary scary track experience the PowerStop Performance Rotors are NOT for track use. Within 35-40 miles just hours after the install I had new rotors CRACK. Very fortunate that neither new rotor chunked out and put me in a wall or into someone else. Went back to OE rotors on Z51 with same daily driving and track pads swapped for events and smooth sailing. The CarboTech racing pads with OE rotors give unbelievable stopping power that is extremely noticeable and competitive.
PowerStop pads could certainly be equal or better than CarboTechs for all I know.....just be aware of the Performance Rotors I tried once when the OE rotors needed replaced. The vibration when braking at speeds over 140 MPH was absurd. I was certainly lucky to get the car home without incident.
06-13-2019, 09:59 AM
