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Allignment/Control arm washers. How many from factory?
I took my car (2015 Z51) in to have the track alignment taken out for the winter. The alignment shop was unable to get the rear camber back to -.5 factory settings on the left side. -1.2 was the best he could do.
The manual page 9-6 talks about taking out a maximum of one washer to move to track alignment settings. I'm wondering if a previous alignment at a different shop took out a washer. The washers when looking at them appear to be flat washers, but you wouldn't really know unless you removed them. The link below shows what appears to be "collar type" washers.
Am I correct in assuming there was more than one of these "collar type" washers from the factory, and how many per control arm rear and front are there on a new car?
How many would I have to add or subtract to equal about 1.0 +/- degree of camber? How would you pile these type of washers on top of each other?
Below is what the OE washers/shims on the C5, C6, and C7 look like. They are about 2.5mm (1/10th of an inch) each.
On my C6 Z06 each stock 2.5mm washer changed camber by about 0.4° to 0.5°.
the Pfadt/AFE camber kit says "A 1mm shim placed on each stud is approximately 0.2 degrees of camber", and that's just about the same as my OE 2.5mm washers did.
I haven't verified it on my C7 yet, but I'm almost certain that it is just about exactly the same.
Thanks! These don't look anything like what I pulled up on the schematic. Could you please look at the link and tell me if I'm looking in the wrong place? I assumed it would be where the upper control arm (front or rear) bolts on to the frame.
Also, can you tell me where I can order these? They look like ordinary washers, but I wouldn't want to possible end up mixing dissimilar metals. I did a search for the kit you reference, and it shows a $375 kit with no washers like your picture. Also, what is that "rubberized" type of material below the top washer in the picture?
First of all, in my previous response I didn't answer your question about how many washers are a new car.
The answer is - different numbers on different cars.
I guess they add how ever many they need in order to get the alignment within specs.
My C7 Z06 had 2 on each bolt up front, and 1 on each bolt in the rear.
I did take a look at that diagram in the link you posted. It looks like it's in the correct place, but it sure doesn't look like the plain old washers that are actually on the car.
As far as that "rubberized" type stuff, IIRC my C6 Z06 had several washers on each bolt, and the last one had that rubberized stuff on it. I believe it was simply to hold the last washer (and others in the stack) on the bolt as it comes down the assembly line. It's nothing that you need to worry about.
Many of us trackhounds just use various thicknesses of standard old washers. I use the kit below I got at Harbor Freight, and many of the camber kits available for the C5/6 (none that I know of are available for the C7 yet) supply shims just like the ones below:
Bottom line - if you need to reduce camber, just use standard washers, and you can just stack 2 or 3 in there as needed.
I am attaching the GM Bulletin on how to do the track alignment. The second picture in the bulletin shows what the spacers look like. On my C5 and C6 the spacers looked like washers with a plastic inner part that grabbed the threads of the bolt similar to the picture in Bob's post above. They aren't a washer as they are cut straight and all the flat washers I have ever seen are cut at an angle and are not uniformly the same thickness across the washer.
It is highly possible the person who did your track alignment took out the washers as instructed in the bulletin. If you aren't at a GM shop they may not know there are or should be washers behind the UCAs.
When I had the alignment on my C5s and C6s changed I always gave the mechanics instructions to save any washers they took out and give them to me. At $5 ea it was worth it to keep them Vs having the guy throw them on the pile on the alignment machine and then charge me $5 to install another when I had the alignment changed again. That was one of the reasons I started doing my own alignments.
I am attaching the GM Bulletin on how to do the track alignment. The second picture in the bulletin shows what the spacers look like. On my C5 and C6 the spacers looked like washers with a plastic inner part that grabbed the threads of the bolt similar to the picture in Bob's post above. They aren't a washer as they are cut straight and all the flat washers I have ever seen are cut at an angle and are not uniformly the same thickness across the washer.
It is highly possible the person who did your track alignment took out the washers as instructed in the bulletin. If you aren't at a GM shop they may not know there are or should be washers behind the UCAs.
When I had the alignment on my C5s and C6s changed I always gave the mechanics instructions to save any washers they took out and give them to me. At $5 ea it was worth it to keep them Vs having the guy throw them on the pile on the alignment machine and then charge me $5 to install another when I had the alignment changed again. That was one of the reasons I started doing my own alignments.
Bill
Thanks for including the bulletin! As per the bulletin you have here says re: the rear upper control arms- not to remove more than one. So again, my assumption would be to order the rear uca washers, then take them to a dealer or a competent alignment shop, add one to the rear, and see if I can get the rear camber from it's currently - 1.2, black to the .-.5 factory limits.
Now my next wait is to see if the UCA washers I ordered come soon, then take the car and washers to a competent alignment facility.
The Les Schwab guy seemed to know what he was doing, but says he wasn't allowed to mess with upper control arm washers as per company policy. He told me what to do- add a washer (or 2) on the Right UCA, then bring it back to him and he says he should be able get the R rear camber back into specs.
I ordered four of these washers from an online parts company just in case. Interesting above comment about using any old flat washers. I wonder if there would be any dissimilar metal issues between different metal washers and/or the frame where the UCA bolts on to?
Sure looks like I may have to find out where to take a class on doing my own alignment, as I go from factory to track settings so often. Suggestions on a good source of where to get alignment equipment, and instructions and maybe even a class.
I think you're waaaayyyy too worried about the shims/washers that you use between the dogbones and the frame!!!
Take a look at these camber kits from various manufacturers. They all come with stud kits to replace the bolts that hold the UCA dogbones to the frame with studs, so you don't strip the threads in the frame from frequently removing/reinstalling the bolts when changing alignment.
Once you remove the eccentric bolts from the LCA's and replace with the plates that will lock the LCA's in position, you can fine tune your camber by adding/removing shims/washers between the dogbone and frame to move the UCA in/out.
Here's a picture of the parts that come in the aFe/Pfadt camber kit for the aluminum frame C6:
Here's their instruction sheet - take a look at the shims installed behind the dogbones:
I think you're waaaayyyy too worried about the shims/washers that you use between the dogbones and the frame!!!
Take a look at these camber kits from various manufacturers. They all come with stud kits to replace the bolts that hold the UCA dogbones to the frame with studs, so you don't strip the threads in the frame from frequently removing/reinstalling the bolts when changing alignment.
Once you remove the eccentric bolts from the LCA's and replace with the plates that will lock the LCA's in position, you can fine tune your camber by adding/removing shims/washers between the dogbone and frame to move the UCA in/out.
Here's a picture of the parts that come in the aFe/Pfadt camber kit for the aluminum frame C6:
Here's their instruction sheet - take a look at the shims installed behind the dogbones:
Here's the old Hardbar kit for aluminum frame C6 (not sure it's available any more):
Here's the Van Steel kit:
.
I went to your Eckler's link and for some reason it took me to a Rick's Camero page. I called Ecklers. They don't have any C7 kits, washers/shims. Thanks anyway!
Below is what the OE washers/shims on the C5, C6, and C7 look like. They are about 2.5mm (1/10th of an inch) each.
On my C6 Z06 each stock 2.5mm washer changed camber by about 0.4° to 0.5°.
the Pfadt/AFE camber kit says "A 1mm shim placed on each stud is approximately 0.2 degrees of camber", and that's just about the same as my OE 2.5mm washers did.
I haven't verified it on my C7 yet, but I'm almost certain that it is just about exactly the same.
.
BEZ06, could you tell me where to get those washers that you depicted, instead of me paying $375 for a full kit? I've been searching online everywhere, and am skeptical that the ones I ordered as per my provided link above are going to be the right ones for using multiple ones of per upper UCA. Do you know if they are aluminum or steel? If so, seems like a hardware store would do it once I know the type of metal. The frame where the upper UCA bolts on to is aluminum right?
BTW, as per your profile question. 1975 - 1999 Air Force T-37, C-130, C-21, and Reserve staffer at AMC. UAL Multiple Boeing/Airbus. SEA and SFO based. 1995 - 2014.
You?
I'm using the shims I got from Harbor Freight (like in post# 4) on the studs I'm installing on my C7. I've got one wheel done, and will do the others this weekend. Below is the left rear with the studs installed:
I've got 40 OE washers - 7 with the rubberized stuff in them; 33 plain ones (the bolts are the OE ones from the C7 that I removed when I put the studs in). Most of those washers are from my C6 Z06, and I think about 10 are off the C7 when I removed them a few months ago to increase camber before my first track event with the car. The C6 and C7 ones are identical:
Shoot me a PM with your address and how many you want and I'll get them to you ASAP!!
Army Hueys in Vietnam, switched to the Coast Guard in 1979, instructed for the Navy in the T-34C for 3 years, flew the HU-25 (USCG version of the Falcon 20 bizjet - we flew SAR and law enforcement missions in it) for 5 years until I retired in 1987. Pan Am until 1991. Delta bought the Shuttle and the A310 int'l operation, and I was on the A310 so got to slide over to Delta in '91. Flew the MD-88 and many Boeings until 2005.
I'm using the shims I got from Harbor Freight (like in post# 4) on the studs I'm installing on my C7. I've got one wheel done, and will do the others this weekend. Below is the left rear with the studs installed:
I've got 40 OE washers - 7 with the rubberized stuff in them; 33 plain ones (the bolts are the OE ones from the C7 that I removed when I put the studs in). Most of those washers are from my C6 Z06, and I think about 10 are off the C7 when I removed them a few months ago to increase camber before my first track event with the car. The C6 and C7 ones are identical:
Shoot me a PM with your address and how many you want and I'll get them to you ASAP!!
Army Hueys in Vietnam, switched to the Coast Guard in 1979, instructed for the Navy in the T-34C for 3 years, flew the HU-25 (USCG version of the Falcon 20 bizjet - we flew SAR and law enforcement missions in it) for 5 years until I retired in 1987. Pan Am until 1991. Delta bought the Shuttle and the A310 int'l operation, and I was on the A310 so got to slide over to Delta in '91. Flew the MD-88 and many Boeings until 2005.
I'm using the shims I got from Harbor Freight (like in post# 4) on the studs I'm installing on my C7. I've got one wheel done, and will do the others this weekend. Below is the left rear with the studs installed:
I've got 40 OE washers - 7 with the rubberized stuff in them; 33 plain ones (the bolts are the OE ones from the C7 that I removed when I put the studs in). Most of those washers are from my C6 Z06, and I think about 10 are off the C7 when I removed them a few months ago to increase camber before my first track event with the car. The C6 and C7 ones are identical:
Shoot me a PM with your address and how many you want and I'll get them to you ASAP!!
Army Hueys in Vietnam, switched to the Coast Guard in 1979, instructed for the Navy in the T-34C for 3 years, flew the HU-25 (USCG version of the Falcon 20 bizjet - we flew SAR and law enforcement missions in it) for 5 years until I retired in 1987. Pan Am until 1991. Delta bought the Shuttle and the A310 int'l operation, and I was on the A310 so got to slide over to Delta in '91. Flew the MD-88 and many Boeings until 2005.
Which studs are you installing? Are they Stainless or not?
Just chiming in to confirm the above. Studs are Grade 10.9 steel. One could probably get away with stainless steel just fine, but some people freak out about not using 10.9 hardware when attaching suspension components so I wasn't about to buck the trend. The yellow chromate coating should make corrosion a non issue, as long as you're not in the habit of daily driving your C7 on snowy, salty roads.
We'll shortly be working on a version of our adjustable camber plates for the C7. These will allow adjustment of the lower control arms without having to swap plates. Between these and the upper control arm adjustment that you C7 guys enjoy, you'll be able dial in your alignment perfectly. We're trying to get a C7 into the shop this week so we can take all the measurments for a C7 camber kit. I'll post up in this forum when we're getting close.
Last edited by Mark@AMT Motorsport; 11-14-2016 at 03:23 PM.
Just chiming in to confirm the above. Studs are Grade 10.9 steel. One could probably get away with stainless steel just fine, but some people freak out about not using 10.9 hardware when attaching suspension components so I wasn't about to buck the trend. The yellow chromate coating should make corrosion a non issue, as long as you're not in the habit of daily driving your C7 on snowy, salty roads.
We'll shortly be working on a version of our adjustable camber plates for the C7. These will allow adjustment of the lower control arms without having to swap plates. Between these and the upper control arm adjustment that you C7 guys enjoy, you'll be able dial in your alignment perfectly. We're trying to get a C7 into the shop this week so we can take all the measurments for a C7 camber kit. I'll post up in this forum when we're getting close.
Have you actually tried removing the rear lower arm bolts to install alignment plates? Last time I looked it seemed like there was major interference to get the bolts out. Look at the service manual to see the procedure for removing the rear arms and thus bolts.
By the way your camber plates look like a super idea.
Have you actually tried removing the rear lower arm bolts to install alignment plates? Last time I looked it seemed like there was major interference to get the bolts out. Look at the service manual to see the procedure for removing the rear arms and thus bolts...
Take a look at the thread linked below. Scroll down to posts# 10 and 11 to see the answer to the easy way to do it!!
11-10-2016, 06:12 PM
Allignment/Control arm washers. How many from factory?
I looked in your profile, but not much info there - except that we're both retired from the same jobs!!
