GoatHead

I did 1 HPDE event, and I see myself doing few events next year (hopefully). I am thinking of personal safety, and I am considering several options. I don't have any knowledge or experience, so I am in the process of educating myself.

Option #1: Simpson Hans Hybrid S with factory seat belt. The cost is $1165, which is pricey for what it is. Any similar product at lower cost? Is it safe enough?

Option #2: Install harness bar, 4 or 6 points seat belt, and Hans device. The cost will be around $2000. Very pricey, and I hate to modify the internal panels. Sure they can be replaced, but they are $300 a piece.

What do you guys use in your cars? What are the pros and cons of the options above? Any other options? any recommendation?

Thanks,

Bill Dearborn

Depending on how tall you are a harness bar alone may not be sufficient. If you are over 5'11" tall and planning on using the stock Comp Seats you need to mock up your planned installation before choosing a harness bar. The comp seat harness pass through holes are about 4 inches lower than what you would see on a normal race seat. At a certain point an occupants shoulders will be above the holes in the seat and the setup won't work. The belts have to have a clear path from the top of the shoulder (w/HANS) to the mounting point on the bar. If they touch the top of the seat pass through you need to purchase race seats for both sides as well. The BK Auto Harness Bar will work with either the stock comp seat or a race seat while the Shark Bar will only work with the stock comp seat.

I installed a Shark Bar back in March of 2016. The cost of the replacement panels wasn't $300 each. I purchased the predrilled panels from Vetteworks for something like $160. Even now they are still only $200/pair.

If you are using the stock Comp seat then you have to worry about placement of the sub belts if you are going to run them. They don't work if run over the front of the seat (in fact using them that way can make things worse). I use the Schroth Profi II ASM (Antisubmarine Belt system) which lets me get by without running a sub belt. However, there are some organizations that won't let you use a 4 point no matter what. My lap belts are properly positioned by using the BK Auto C7 Lap Belt mounts (mounts that position the lap belt hard mounts behind the seat more than likely will not work unless the seat is a fixed seat and the mounting point provides the proper angle for the belt to pass over your pelvis).

When I run with an organization that will not accept 4 point belts I add the Schroth 2 point sub belt to my Profi II belts and loop them under my legs and fasten them to the BK lap belt mounts in what is known as the Formula set up.

The most cost effective solution may be to run the 3 point belt system with it properly Cinched (Using the belt Cinch Mode that is present with all Corvette seat belts since the C4 was introduced in 1983). Cinching the belts so they are tight across your lap and torso while using the Hybrid neck support is a very good way to go. As for getting around the track fast Poor-Sha (one of the fastest drivers on the forum) uses the stock 3 point system and it doesn't seem to be hindering him.

One thing that will help with either a race harness or the 3 point system is to provide some stiff padding to keep your legs from moving outward against the door and the tunnel. I uses some flame resistant stiff race foam to make a two inch thick pad that I velcro to the door and it keeps my left knee from moving outward just like the high side of a race seat keeps your legs in place.

Bill

GoatHead

Bill, thanks as always. There is a lot of good info to digest.

I am 6' and have the stock comp seats. I don't have plans to replace seats. So, I am going to measure my shoulder height from the harness path through. If my shoulders are above the opening, then no harness bar works for me, right?

64drvr

GoatHead

^^^
Very nice setup. I hope I can go that rout in the future. Thanks for sharing.

GoatHead

So, I sat in the car and found out that my shoulders cover about 80% of the harness path through seat opening. I am assuming with a HANS device, the path through will be completely covered. Based on this finding and what Bill explained, harness bar and 4 points harness will not work for me.

That leaves me with option No.1 - HANS Hybrid S. and the stock seat belt. Is my conclusion correct?

badhabit_wb

Yep.

JMII

Can you elaborate? Are just pulling the belts really tight and somehow tripping the pretensioner? Or using a CG-Lock?

subieworx

You should never run a 5/6 point harness without a proper cage. It is unsafe and a good way to compress your spine should you be in a roll over situation. Use the factory belt and airbags until the car progresses to a track car. At which time there will be at least a half cage, no airbags and a proper 5/6 point belt mounting configuration with proper seating.

GoatHead

I tried it yesterday. Once your fasten your seat belt, pull the belt all the way until no more belt left, then slowly let it fully retract. Once it fully retracted, you won't be able to extend it no longer, until it is unfastened.

BrunoTheMellow

And you know you did it right because you will hear a ratcheting sound. What some do to make it even tighter is move the seat back for 1 inch or so, tighten the belt then move it forward. I just suck in a little and bounce back and forth to tighten mine.

Bill Dearborn

I make sure the seat is all the way to the rear, then pull belt out all the way until it stops. Then I fasten the belt and use my hands to pull it tight across my lap and feed the slack back into the shoulder belt retractor. Once the belt is as tight as I can get it I move the seat forward to my seating position. That usually means the lap belt is a little painful across the pelvis and the shoulder belt is somewhat restricting my breathing. What is interesting is once you get a few hard corners and some heavy braking behind you the belt won't feel all that tight.

I also make my Schroth belt just as tight by fastening it and then moving seat and seat back forward. Tight is good, tighter is better.

If I have a passenger when using the 3 point belts I will open their door and use all of my weight to pull the lap belt tight while shoving the slack into their shoulder belt retractor. Usually, they complain I am making the belt too tight then after braking from 150 down to 50 mph to go around a corner at the limit they suddenly see the light.

There is no problem running a 4 or 6 point belt without a roll cage. Things happen too fast and the forces are too high for a 3 point belt to permit a body to slide sideways and for the person to actually throw themselves sideways. The biggest problem a person has in a rollover isn't the collapse of the roof it is their head sticking out the window and hitting the ground. Have seen a gruesome video showing that happening in a VW Jetta.

Bill

JMII

For sure.... people don't realize how violently these cars can corner and brake, you really need to be locked down or you get bounces around which makes for long, uncomfortable day.

I've yet to track my C7 but comparing to my older Nissan 350Z these new seats are more snug which I like. I sat in a Focus RS with the factory Recaros and was in love, those things hug you like grandma! I'm tall but thin so most seats are too big for me width wise but short on length, so I have to brace myself with my leg and my shoulders tend to get sore as my under body weight shifts around while turning the wheel. Hopefully the microfiber inserts help too, because before I had all leather which tends to be slippery. My brother has a harness setup in his Golf R and claimed it completely changed his tracking experience - could feel more, less fatigue, easier heel-toe, etc.

speedwaywhite

emperors61

Thanks for all the excellent feedback Bill and everyone else. I'm going to try to replicate Bill's setup for my C7 Z06. I had a question about the Schroth Profi II ASM. Would you recommend pull up or pull down for the lap belts?

64drvr

emperors61

I'm concerned about the pull up since I'm not quite sure how it will work on where the excess belts will rest. I assume between the legs. I can't trim the excess since I'll share my wife and other passengers. Is the excess belt hard to handle on the track or will it flop around everywhere?

jcp911s

This is a very complex issue. I have races and been HPDE instructor for several decades. IMHO, there is no "halfway" with safety equipment.

Factory stock system with 3-points and airbags has been developed and tested by professional engineers, and stood the test.

Full race system... full cage, full-race containment seat, 5/6 points, HANS, and head restraint nets has also proven itself. Just watch a NASCAR crash... the guy comes out with a bruise and high blood pressure.

The issue is not position or restraint while driving, its what happens if you F-U at speed. My Corvette will easily hit 150MPH at the tracks I drive, and while I consider myself a pretty experienced and competent race driver, I have spun numerous times... its going to happen. So think about what will happen if you lose it and hit the wall at 140MPH. Its like taping a stick of dynamite to your body and lighting it.

I use the stock belts and drive 8/10ths and have fun, but if you do race speeds, you simply have to go full race safety equipment, or else you are gambling on your life.

subieworx

I'm with you. I think doing any kind of harness bar and aftermarket restraints are stupid without a proper cage.

On the pull up vs pull down debate: Pull up sounds like the better option, but in my experience is always a pain. The adjusters always end up in the way typically right where the holes in the seat are and end up limiting adjustment. I only run pull down now because of this. While more difficult to initial get strapped in I can get strapped in tighter with pull down harnesses.

Bill Dearborn

Pull up is the way to go. There is no room to use pull down belts on the inside and the outside isn't much better. You can lay the belts down along side your legs or between your legs. Even if you have a race seat pull up belts are better. However, with a race seat the driver has to be sure the adjustment buckle isn't located in the seat's belt pass through hole. The reason for that is in an incident any forward motion on the belt might put catch the release on the edge of the pass through and release belt tension thus letting it slide outward and ruining your day. When I had a race seat in my C5 and C6 I made sure the adjustment buckles on both lap belts were on my thighs Vs located in the pass through holes next to my hips.

You don't need to worry about that with pull down belts since the release mechanism works the exact opposite of the pull up belts.

As for having a cage or not I don't think that makes any difference when discussing using a race harness Vs 3 point belts as long as the harness bar or roll bar you are using is mounted to the B pillars and strong enough to not bend under several thousand pounds of sudden force during an impact. The biggest problem with roll overs isn't the roof coming down it is with the occupant's head being forced out of the window by centrifugal force with subsequent impact with the ground as the car rolls. There is no such thing as throwing your self sideways to avoid a roof collapse the center console prevents movement inward, the forces are too high and the human abdominal muscles are too weak. Sit through a few Track Safety Sessions presented by true experts with videos showing what goes on inside a car in an incident and you can see there are a lot of myths.

Roll overs on track are rare especially in driving schools. Impacts with various types of walls occur far more often (I personally have 3 impacts with walls and have only seen 2 roll overs in all of the driving schools I have attended since I started participating in driving schools 27 years ago).

The big thing you want to do is keep the lap belt in place and tight across the pelvic girdle. That prevents submarining under the belt. Even if you have a full race harness if it isn't fastened correctly across your body it won't do much good. The sequence is the belts keep you in the seat, the seat keeps you in the car and if you have a cage the cage keeps the car enclosure from collapsing in on the seat/occupant. Roll bars by themselves do little more if anything than the stock seat halo because the A pillars are the weak point not the halo. If you want to prevent the roof from coming into the occupant space you need to have a full cage which will prevent the A pillars from collapsing.

Bill