[QUOTE=TripleBlack99;1586924694]ok, well that is interesting. what would be the biggest things they would have to change on a mclaren p1 to keep it from failing. And i guess it all depends on the definition of "ran them hard".. what is an example of that.. for instance x number of laps pushing it 9/10ths, at xxx track. Just to be clear, i am not questioning you because i doubt you, but rather i am hoping to learn something.[/


I think he is referring to an endurance race type setting. Such as a 24hr race. It would be something if GM would inter a bone stock ZO7 ( with rollbar and other necessary safety only equipment ) in it and try to complete the race. I don't believe they would win but it would be a huge confidence builder for the general public if it succeeded. I doubt GM will do it but it would be awesome.

 

There's an entire laundry list of items that would need to be changed to RACE said cars...

Oiling system with larger cooler,
Engines built with tougher internals to stand up to extended abuse,
Transmissions changed to ones with beefier internals, along with additional cooling for the gears,
Rear ends beefed up to stand up to the stress and heat generated from extended running,
Wheel bearings,
Brakes & rotors...

The list is much longer than that...all those exotics are made to go fast for SHORT periods of time. The Veyron can only go about 50 miles @ top speed before it sucks the tank dry...and then the tires must be changed at a cost of about $30k US.

Don't get me wrong...they are ALL awesome cars, but they don't have anywhere near the ***** to go run a serious race for 2+ hours. For them to be manufactured to do so would cost roughly 40% - 60% more...and they are in rarified air right now.

The MP4-12C GT3 got a special trans built by Ricardio just for McLaren...NOT the 7-speed the production car came with (amongst other things).

 

Waiting for the actual tests of the new A8 transmission.

Best way to make a determination on actual capabilities.

A test drive is invaluable as well.

 

Excellent points. So there's OEM production line vehicles like the Z06 and even the Z07 that are actually designed for the average Joe that might want a higher level of performance and/or distinction than most of the others out on the road. Then, you have the individual that's a bit more serious about it (Weekend warrior) and might need to tweak on their cars to enable them to take a bit more of a beating without breaking down on the track.... And then there's the hard core individual, which most are not, that has a mind bending budget to build and operate an all out SINGLE PURPOSE race car incapable for any other purpose than to operate on the track. So, to expect either one to operate in either ones worlds might seem impossible.

Guess it's kind of like comparing apples to oranges as far as intended purposes are concerned and what they're built to do. This is an age old problem many have fallen victim to in the past. As far as making attempts to change the purpose from one to the other, certain compromises have to be made and not everyone recognizes those compromises until it's sometimes too late sacrificing comfort for performance. Bottom line...... Buy one or the other, but don't expect the one you buy to be the best of both worlds..

 

I'd say it was pretty revealing that absolutely NOTHING from a "production" Corvette in the drive train is used in the C7.R. Everything is replaced for reliability.

They start out with a production FRAME...and that's as far as the similarities go.

Long gone are the days when they just pulled a vehicle off the assembly line and sent it to race shops to convert for competition.

 

Pure forum speculation. Doubtful a different transmission is going to turn around the sales to any meaningful degree, unless the Viper's main marketing focus has been in AARP magazine.

Michael

 

An auto would help the viper. It would open the car up to people that have injures that don't allow them to drive a stick or simply don't know how. To date dodge has only made 1. I'm not saying the auto will make or brake the viper. It would just simply help.

 

Mmmmmmmmmm, sounds like some on this forum have issues with respecting their elders.....

 

Not really. The motor is different to comply with race rules limiting displacement and method of induction, the trans is different for competitive reasons, safety rules necessitate extensive modifications to the structure of the car, and so forth. Some things get changed for reliability, but most for other reasons.

 

They aren't allowed to run the 6.2, nor were they allowed the 7.0 because of ALMS's bogus displacement rules to give Gimps like team SRT and BMW a pretense of a fighting chance. Officially the max engine size is 5.5 liter and it has to be a vehicle with a production style engine in it....

BMW Z4 doesn't even have a V8 option. ALMS let BMW put the v8 in...
SRT is still allowed to run the 8.3 liter V10.

Team Corvette on the other hand gets saddled with a 5.5 Liter.

The Transmission is a race built trans that would be wholly unsuitable for street use. It's also too expensive to put into mass production.

 

And nearly everything else is different too.
The front control arms are fabricated, it's got coil overs on it, the brakes are completely different with 6-piston F/R calipers and smaller rotors and obviously race spec hardware and do you really think they have a stock set of axles and differential in the C7R? Maybe it's got a stock C7 PCM and they just flashed a new calibration onto it.

It's a race car. It's got race car parts in it. Not parts that you buy in an assembly line built car.
S.

 

Kind of like those "stock" cars you see racing in NASCAR Wonder what the S in NASCAR stands for these days...

 

Nice try...

They could get the displacement out of the stock block needed for ALMS. All they would have had to do was change the bore & stroke to get their numbers.

The C5.R, C6.R and C7.R all use special Bowtie blocks because they are stronger than production blocks. Additional webbing internally to prevent flexing and withstand the stresses of racing.

A stock block wouldn't last 12 hours at Saytona, Sebring or LeMans.

 

The LSx/LTx engines had to pass a 400 hour stress test where the engine was ran at full throttle for 400 hours cycling from peak torque to peak HP RPM in a 5 minute sawtooth pattern. 400 hours is 16 days and 16 hours...what makes you think they wouldn't last 12 hours at Daytona, Sebring, or Lemans? Especially considering the throttle spends a certain part of that time closed.

The LT5 from the C4 ZR-1 was the first engine GM produced that passed the 400 hour stress test...before then engines were put though a 200 hour test. They can't just make it through the test, the engines are torn down and all parts are inspected for cracks...zero defects are allowed.

 

Let's turn that around...

IF the stock block COULD handle it...WHY are they using aftermarket Bowtie blocks then?

Looking forward to the back pedaling to come...

 

The C4 ZR1 engine was designed and built by Lotus for the Stevens body Esprit. That is why it is narow and tall even though there is plenty of room in a corvette to put the starter under the side of the engine instead of under the intake manifold. GM owned Lotus at the time and saw the potential of the engine. They decided they could make a true super car out of the corvette with that engine and took it from the Esprit to use in the corvette. I have one of the lotus esprit that it was slated to go in.

 

a block designed for 7L displacement is carrying a lot of extra material when only using 5.5L.
Even if the weight limit is reached, it would still be better to redistribute that savings lower down in the chassis and in a place of your choosing...

 

..and that's exactly what the race team did.

Tadge even showed a weight the race team used just for this purpose of redistributing the weight savings to other areas that are beneficial for performance and handling.

 

The LT1 was designed for 7L of displacement? Where did you see that?

 

These comments always make me laugh. Lets face it, the reason and ONLY reason why somebody would want a manual transmission is to be able to control the gear at any particular time. That or they want to control the launch. If you could do that with a different transmission with the same degree of accuracy or efficiency, then would having the third pedal matter? It wouldn't, and the people attached to the 3rd pedal don't like it from a racing standpoint. If they did they would know that the majority of race cars while having a clutch, don't actually use it like a traditional sycromesh transmission would in a standard car. Hell lots of race cars have a "3rd Pedal which is rally a hand pull for the clutch. That is how most formula cars are, that's how Karts are. That's how F1 cars are. The clutch is hand actuated.

As far as whether it's a dual clutch which is electronically controlled (through hydraulics), or and auto (which is also electronically controlled through hydraulics) is a moot point. The reason why dual clutches are perceived as better than an automatic has to do with a couple key factors. That is 1. they in the past have been better at user controlled precise shifting for both up and down shifts, 2. Have been lighter, and 3. Do a better job and managing heat.

If you could do those 3 things in an auto, then the driver wouldn't know what they were driving was a dual clutch or an auto. That is what's happening with Lexus, that's what's happened with Mercedes, and hopefully what will happen with the auto in the Z06.

As for me, I care only about being able to chose what gear I'm in at any time, and I need it to be instantaneous. If it takes longer for it to change gear than it would for me to do it manually, then I'm out. If it can do it faster, than I could care less if I have a third pedal or not.