3,524 lbs is NOT heavy....it's best-in-class.
08-16-2014, 05:07 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
08-16-2014, 05:08 PM
#22
Many of you are looking at this weight issue all wrong... 3500lb doesn't mean anything in a vacuum - you have to compare curb weight relative to the real-world competition and the torque available. Remember, exotics are misleadingly advertised at dry weight (with no fluids or gas added)...just add about 200lb to their dry weight for a true apples-to-apples comparison. For example, that 3135lb Huracan you've been referencing is really 3406lb if you want to start the engine.
Simply stated, NOTHING short of $1,000,000 can beat the torque-to-weight ratio of the 2015 Z06 when using the most relevant real-world performance metric, curb weight to torque output:
2015 Corvette Z06 - 5.4 (3524/650)
SRT Viper 5.9 (3354/600)
Lamborghini Huracan - 6.1 (3406/560)
McClaren 650s - 6.3 (3162/500)
Ferrari F12 - 6.6 (3362/509)
Corvette Stingray - 7.2 (3298/460)
Porsche 911 Turbo - 7.2 (3500/487)
Lamborghini Aventador - 7.5 (3795/507)
Ferrari 458 Italia - 8.2 (3274/398)
This ratio is the metric that correlates best to Nurburgring lap time results. The math doesn't lie, only human sentiment. If you're still being stubborn after looking at this comparison, just get a base stingray at a dry weight of 3,150lb. Or a Miata.
Simply stated, NOTHING short of $1,000,000 can beat the torque-to-weight ratio of the 2015 Z06 when using the most relevant real-world performance metric, curb weight to torque output:
2015 Corvette Z06 - 5.4 (3524/650)
SRT Viper 5.9 (3354/600)
Lamborghini Huracan - 6.1 (3406/560)
McClaren 650s - 6.3 (3162/500)
Ferrari F12 - 6.6 (3362/509)
Corvette Stingray - 7.2 (3298/460)
Porsche 911 Turbo - 7.2 (3500/487)
Lamborghini Aventador - 7.5 (3795/507)
Ferrari 458 Italia - 8.2 (3274/398)
This ratio is the metric that correlates best to Nurburgring lap time results. The math doesn't lie, only human sentiment. If you're still being stubborn after looking at this comparison, just get a base stingray at a dry weight of 3,150lb. Or a Miata.
In the end, most of this banter is irrelevant, because a VERY small fraction of buyers will track the car, and an even smaller amount are capable of pushing its limits. 99.5% is bragging rights and street cred...which fuels sales. If GM were making vettes solely for track purposes, the cars would be comparable to exotics in price, because the demand and affordability would be limited.
I'm buying an early Z07...and keeping my modded C6 ZR. Neither will ever come close to a track. I just want what I want and am a lifelong vette fan. That said, I'm curious to see how the behaviors of these two cars differ. I'm finding it hard to believe that the Z will be much faster than the ZR. Time will tell.
I'm really keeping my fingers crossed for a C7 ZR.
08-16-2014, 05:12 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
The design team didn't shoot for absolute minimum weight, but required every gram to earn its way onto the car. I expect published lap times will show that they got their money's worth in performance, which doubtless will far exceed that of the 996TT. If weight means more to you than actual performance, or if you need four seats, by all means stick with the 996TT, or go find my former S2000 CR that was also made of steel and weighed about 2850 but couldn't keep up with my current base C6.
08-16-2014, 05:27 PM
#24
Instructor
Thread Starter
I get your point and concur to a degree, but don't agree that the most relevant metric is curb weight to torque. There is much more to the performance equation, unless you're simply talking about straight line speed.
In the end, most of this banter is irrelevant, because a VERY small fraction of buyers will track the car, and an even smaller amount are capable of pushing its limits. 99.5% is bragging rights and street cred...which fuels sales. If GM were making vettes solely for track purposes, the cars would be comparable to exotics in price, because the demand and affordability would be limited.
I'm buying an early Z07...and keeping my modded C6 ZR. Neither will ever come close to a track. I just want what I want and am a lifelong vette fan. That said, I'm curious to see how the behaviors of these two cars differ. I'm finding it hard to believe that the Z will be much faster than the ZR. Time will tell.
I'm really keeping my fingers crossed for a C7 ZR.
In the end, most of this banter is irrelevant, because a VERY small fraction of buyers will track the car, and an even smaller amount are capable of pushing its limits. 99.5% is bragging rights and street cred...which fuels sales. If GM were making vettes solely for track purposes, the cars would be comparable to exotics in price, because the demand and affordability would be limited.
I'm buying an early Z07...and keeping my modded C6 ZR. Neither will ever come close to a track. I just want what I want and am a lifelong vette fan. That said, I'm curious to see how the behaviors of these two cars differ. I'm finding it hard to believe that the Z will be much faster than the ZR. Time will tell.
I'm really keeping my fingers crossed for a C7 ZR.
When it comes purely to racing one car against another around a track to set the best time, objectively & removing all human emotion out of the argument, torque versus weight matters most. Above all else.
Last edited by Ching Ho; 08-16-2014 at 05:30 PM.
08-16-2014, 05:53 PM
#25
Drifting
Sorry, it's all about HP to Weight, not TQ!
It's the most relevant performance metric because it's the one that correlates closest to Nurburgring lap times. It's not weight. It's not horsepower. It's not handling or chassis. Definitely not 0-60 & definitely not heritage, tradition, brand, or how a car feels. Not to discount all these secondary aspects that add up to the total package.
When it comes purely to racing one car against another around a track to set the best time, objectively & removing all human emotion out of the argument, torque versus weight matters most. Above all else.
When it comes purely to racing one car against another around a track to set the best time, objectively & removing all human emotion out of the argument, torque versus weight matters most. Above all else.
TQ is fun around town, and on an autox but not what keeps a car accelerating.
The car is heavy, but has the aero downforce to compensate around a road course all day! And the automatic will be the dominant setup at the dragstrip. And if you want what correlates to ring times, it's hp to weight plus sticky tires and downforce.
But please don't believe TQ is what is setting ring times, or any road course lap time.
Dave
08-16-2014, 05:55 PM
#26
Race Director
I agree...the c7 z06 should be awesome......
08-16-2014, 05:56 PM
#27
Melting Slicks
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Many of you are looking at this weight issue all wrong... 3500lb doesn't mean anything in a vacuum - you have to compare curb weight relative to the real-world competition and the torque available. Remember, exotics are misleadingly advertised at dry weight (with no fluids or gas added)...just add about 200lb to their dry weight for a true apples-to-apples comparison. For example, that 3135lb Huracan you've been referencing is really 3406lb if you want to start the engine.
Simply stated, NOTHING short of $1,000,000 can beat the torque-to-weight ratio of the 2015 Z06 when using the most relevant real-world performance metric, curb weight to torque output:
2015 Corvette Z06 - 5.4 (3524/650)
SRT Viper 5.9 (3354/600)
Lamborghini Huracan - 6.1 (3406/560)
McClaren 650s - 6.3 (3162/500)
Ferrari F12 - 6.6 (3362/509)
Corvette Stingray - 7.2 (3298/460)
Porsche 911 Turbo - 7.2 (3500/487)
Lamborghini Aventador - 7.5 (3795/507)
Ferrari 458 Italia - 8.2 (3274/398)
This ratio is the metric that correlates best to Nurburgring lap time results. The math doesn't lie, only human sentiment. If you're still being stubborn after looking at this comparison, just get a base stingray at a dry weight of 3,150lb. Or a Miata.
(When pricing is released next week we can update this chart for percentage differences in price per unit of weight to torque, that would be an eye-opening metric)
Simply stated, NOTHING short of $1,000,000 can beat the torque-to-weight ratio of the 2015 Z06 when using the most relevant real-world performance metric, curb weight to torque output:
2015 Corvette Z06 - 5.4 (3524/650)
SRT Viper 5.9 (3354/600)
Lamborghini Huracan - 6.1 (3406/560)
McClaren 650s - 6.3 (3162/500)
Ferrari F12 - 6.6 (3362/509)
Corvette Stingray - 7.2 (3298/460)
Porsche 911 Turbo - 7.2 (3500/487)
Lamborghini Aventador - 7.5 (3795/507)
Ferrari 458 Italia - 8.2 (3274/398)
This ratio is the metric that correlates best to Nurburgring lap time results. The math doesn't lie, only human sentiment. If you're still being stubborn after looking at this comparison, just get a base stingray at a dry weight of 3,150lb. Or a Miata.
(When pricing is released next week we can update this chart for percentage differences in price per unit of weight to torque, that would be an eye-opening metric)
Mclaren 650 S 500 hp ?? try 650 at less than 3200 pound
Ferrari 458 Italia, last i checked it had 580 Hp ?
Ferrari F12 is also wrong
either way.... its sad that new Z06 has to add even more weight to ZR1, i was hoping for less as CF is getting less expensive
Rune
08-16-2014, 05:56 PM
#28
Racer
This weight discussion is interesting in many different ways besides what weights what and what does it matter. Also is the HOW to determine weight. In trying to confirm some of the weights being discussed here I ran into deferent web sites, manufactures, mags and individuals quoting car weights but measuring them in various ways...dry, curb, gross etc. As an example Edmunds has the 2014 911tt-s at over 3800#'s while cars .com has it at 3538.
Growing up and for the past x years I had always thought "curb" weight was the standard meaning full tank etc. But I guess that has changed...However you look at it the Z's weight is not overly heavy compared to many others in it's class. Porsche 911tts at the aforementioned 3538. XKR-S at 3968 and the F at 3638. The slk55amg is 3583 and Ferrari Calif. is over 3600 and then there's that lovable Maserati GTMC at over 4100lbs. rrm
Growing up and for the past x years I had always thought "curb" weight was the standard meaning full tank etc. But I guess that has changed...However you look at it the Z's weight is not overly heavy compared to many others in it's class. Porsche 911tts at the aforementioned 3538. XKR-S at 3968 and the F at 3638. The slk55amg is 3583 and Ferrari Calif. is over 3600 and then there's that lovable Maserati GTMC at over 4100lbs. rrm
08-16-2014, 05:59 PM
#29
Race Director
where do you get your numbers ?
Mclaren 650 S 500 hp ?? try 650 at less than 3200 pound
Ferrari 458 Italia, last i checked it had 580 Hp ?
Ferrari F12 is also wrong
either way.... its sad that new Z06 has to add even more weight to ZR1, i was hoping for less as CF is getting less expensive
Rune
Mclaren 650 S 500 hp ?? try 650 at less than 3200 pound
Ferrari 458 Italia, last i checked it had 580 Hp ?
Ferrari F12 is also wrong
either way.... its sad that new Z06 has to add even more weight to ZR1, i was hoping for less as CF is getting less expensive
Rune
Hope this helps
08-16-2014, 06:03 PM
#30
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Nov 2000
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but torque alone is not winning races
take F1, fastest cars on any track , no torque (old engines) but revved to 19000 rpm, they do pretty good :-)
BUT i love torque.... just wish C7 Z06 had a little less, imagine 3200 weight and same engine
08-16-2014, 06:34 PM
#33
It's a little oink oink for road course use. Now you are looking at 3400 gutted with driver. That's heavy sorry to say. But I am still getting one so who am I to complain.
However, You could get a stingray at 3298 stock and be 3000 with driver gutted . That will be lethal
However, You could get a stingray at 3298 stock and be 3000 with driver gutted . That will be lethal
08-16-2014, 06:52 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
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I think it all comes down to how you'll use it. If you're just going to drive it around town, then you probably don't care about the extra weight. On the other hand, if you're racing it on the track, then you understand that weight absolutely matters, but unfortunately you're in a minority mentality.
GM wants to sell as many of these as possible. Big horsepower, creature comforts, luxury features, gadgets, targa tops, automatic transmissions and the FANTASY of being a racer is what sells. Curb weight is not an important selling point for the average buyer who doesn't even know what "curb weight" means.
Anyway, they should have saved us all a lot of grief and just named it the "C7 ZR1" because that's exactly what it is.
GM wants to sell as many of these as possible. Big horsepower, creature comforts, luxury features, gadgets, targa tops, automatic transmissions and the FANTASY of being a racer is what sells. Curb weight is not an important selling point for the average buyer who doesn't even know what "curb weight" means.
Anyway, they should have saved us all a lot of grief and just named it the "C7 ZR1" because that's exactly what it is.
08-16-2014, 06:57 PM
#37
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08-16-2014, 06:59 PM
#38
08-16-2014, 07:01 PM
#39
That's because of me. I asked why does the C7-Z06 weigh more than my 996TT? I have AWD, leather everything, car is made of steel (frame and body) has two turbos (and 2 I/C) and seats 4, yet it still weighs less than a fiberglass/aluminium C7-Z06. So I asked why. And this fine gentleman rambled on that I should buy a S2000... and dissed the 996TT in the process.
08-16-2014, 07:03 PM
#40
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To all the torque freaks, hp=TQxrpm/5252
You can talk tq all day, in the end, HP includes TQ and rpm in its measure. My step father's GMC 2500 has 800lbs of TQ and it doesn't stand a chance against my old Elise that had 150lbs of tq.
Old generation F1 had less than 300lb.ft of torque. But at 18000rpm, that still makes a nice 1000hp. Tq is nothing without rpm and good gear ratios (for a performance car, for hard work it's a different matter).
You can talk tq all day, in the end, HP includes TQ and rpm in its measure. My step father's GMC 2500 has 800lbs of TQ and it doesn't stand a chance against my old Elise that had 150lbs of tq.
Old generation F1 had less than 300lb.ft of torque. But at 18000rpm, that still makes a nice 1000hp. Tq is nothing without rpm and good gear ratios (for a performance car, for hard work it's a different matter).