RC000E

That's like saying 0-60 times don't sell cars. In europe, Nurburgring performance sells cars like 0-60 and 1/4 mile times sell them here. Simple.

Shrike6

No matter what anyone says, 'Ring times are an interesting comparison between performance cars. I have driven the 'Ring a few times, and there is no more complete test of all aspects of a car's capabilities. Every serious performance car manufacturer tests there for good reasons. The lack of 'Ring lap times shows clearly that the C7 and C7Z did not do well enough to post. If the times were good, they would have been posted. Regardless of anything Tadge or GM flacks say, good lap times would always be advertised. Disappointing times are dealt with in silence, as we have been getting on this subject since the C7 went on sale.
If anyone thinks they can dispute this, let them post the lap times.
Silence proves disappointing results.

Snorman

To be fair, I don't think GM plans to sell a lot of Corvettes in Europe. While I think they hoped to sell more than previous generations, I don't think those numbers are very high.
And Dodge made a lot of noise about the Viper's 13 track records on tracks all through the United States. Tracks that a great many of us frequent and that would have much more relevance than the Nurburgring. Viper sales this YTD are lower than they were in '15 and '14 and they are only selling ~50 cars a month over the last 6 months or so. It has had zero effect on sales volumes other than it might have swayed a handful of people to a more expensive ACR instead of an SRT, GT or GTS.
Track times don't really seem to have a lot of impact. For guys that'll buy the car to track it, sure. But that's a very, very small number. I'd venture to say that of those who bought an ACR, even with all the talk of tracking the car, a fraction ever will.
S.

punky

I could absolutely, positively, care less what happens or sells in Europe. Simple.

mfain

Hate to disagree, but some of your information is a little inaccurate. Viper sales are stronger now than the last two years - looks like 700 plus for 2016 (my SN was 367 two months into production). And I am certainly not the only guy who switched to a Viper primarily due to the track performance - specifically the 13 track records and the NA motor with less cooling issues. The cars are basically hand-built so it takes a while for the plant to produce each car - mine took 5 months. But the quality (paint, fit-and-finish, etc.) is excellent. With current production facilities, SRT could not produce too many more cars per year and the higher price (than a Corvette) for a car with great performance but admittedly less creature comforts probably limits the market as much as anything - but I don't really think SRT cares. The production capability was scaled to the anticipated market, and it seems to be working fine.

Pappy

Snorman

You can disagree if you'd like, but the sales numbers are readily available. Dodge has sold 194 cars this year, or, ~48 cars a month. Sales are not stronger now than they've been over the last two years. The original business case was for 1500/cars per year.
This isn't a debate about sales volumes, but whether or not the ACR's track prowess has had an effect on them. It hasn't. And a relatively few anecdotal examples of people who bought ACR's isn't substantial enough to change that fact. Even pointing to dozens of people who bought ACR's won't have a material impact on this. The sales volumes are unchanged, even decreasing in 2016 from previous years.

And SRT should care. There are going to be lots of people either laid off, or reassigned when CAAP closes next year. They have much higher capacity than ~50 cars per month, that's why they've shuttered the plant on more than one occasion during Gen V production.
S.

NemesisC5

The VW Golf GTI Clubsport S is your newest Nurburgring record-holder
May 4, 2016

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...-record-setter

I'm sure Nurburgring times are of no interest to anyone....

mfain

I guess you can make stats say whatever you want. The "assigned" VIN numbers are now in the 600s for 2016 models. I believe less than 500 2015s were sold (442 by one source). Your sold numbers obviously relate to Jan-May 2016, but they have been taking orders (for the ACR) since last Oct, and, as expected, there was a pretty good early surge. Also "sold" does not mean ordered - sold figures occur when title is transferred, and admittedly deliveries are pretty slow right now. If you do a CAAP tour you will see there is not a lot of room for increased capacity (some, but not a lot) with the level of hands-on involvement required in the assembly. When they shut down (reduced production in 2013 and 2-month shutdown in 2014) it was not because they were building at a higher rate, it was just that demand was lower than projected and inventory built up. The ACR pumped a little new blood into demand for 2016, as could be expected. Also CAAP isn't closing due to sales. It is closing because after Sep 2017 the Viper in its current configuration cannot pass the federal standard (FMV-SS-226) for air bags above the window opening to prevent occupant ejection. SRT says a re-design for compliance is not feasible. I suspect that if and when the Viper re-emerges, it will not have an 8.4L motor - again because of our beloved federal mandates.

However, you make statements like "This isn't a debate about sales volumes, but whether or not the ACR's track prowess has had an effect on them. It hasn't." Never say never. You may not think it's significant in the big scheme of things, but the ACR's track prowess IS the reason GM lost me as a repeat Corvette customer (for a while anyway - I've owned Corvettes since 1965!). I may be part of a small number, and it isn't going to appreciably change the overall balance of sales figures, but I am certainly not alone - - and "it hasn't" is technically incorrect.

Cheers

Pappy

Snorman

The Gen V sales numbers are all right here and they are accurate, whether you want to challenge them based on VIN numbers or speculate about ordered units or whatever...
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

676 units were sold in CY15, compared to Ralph's business plan target of 1500 when the Gen V launched. And yes, despite the availability of the ACR, they sold fewer cars through '16 Q1 than in '15 or '14.

It's very clear based on sales volumes over the last 6-months, during the availability of the ACR, that there has been no major shift or increase in sales. So no, the 13 lap records haven't reinvigorated Viper. The number of people who (at least claim anyway) they left one brand, whether it's Corvette or Porsche or whatever, to buy an ACR apparently isn't very big or the sales numbers would have spiked up as they did in late-2014 when Dodge announced $15k MSRP reductions and the voucher program for existing owners. The argument could be made that the ACR model has prevented Gen V sales from falling even more. Perhaps sales would only be at ~100 cars through April were it not for the ACR.

And as I said previously, for the majority of those who say track times are a big reason for their purchase...they'll never turn a tire on-track. For those of us who spend a lot of time on-track, there are myriad considerations to make before making the jump to an ACR, none of which are insignificant.

It's just the way it is.
S.

mfain

Sales figures are not a track performance metric. And I'm not a stockholder in either corporation, so the figures don't matter much to me. From 2011 - 2013, the ZR1 and C6Z/Z07 combined were selling at about the same rate as the Viper - both long in the tooth as far as styling went, but reliable on track. I suspect all three cars had roughly the same track-oriented appeal. But not everybody wants a track car and the compromises that come with it. Now, for Vipers on track, this is our event at Wildhorse Pass (Phoenix) a couple of weeks ago. There was one C7Z - fairly typical, but a lot of C6s including one ZR1 that tried to take a concrete wall down. So yes, guys buy Vipers to put on track, probably at a far higher percentage than other "track" cars. It's just the way it is.

Pappy

Hirohawa

Speaking of sales numbers - If one were to "Do the Math" C7 sales are down 20% so far in 2016 compared to 2015. No Ring time announced and sales suddenly crashed - correlation or conspiracy theory?

We'll have to ask the straw man.

Snorman

So why did you even engage in this discussion? The discussion was whether or not track times, specifically the Nurburgring time, would have any effect on sales figures. It's easily shown that they have had no measurable effect on Viper sales despite 13 lap records.
Yes, I see claims like this all the time. Complete speculation and not supported by anything but anecdotal observations. The number for any car is an extremely small percentage. The exception would very likely be the Porsche GT cars.
S.

NemesisC5

Or maybe waiting for 17's with A10 and improved cooling

dsevo

You act like you are the expert, but you simply don't know what you're taking about. There is a gentleman on the Viper forum tracking 2016 vin numbers, and he has already accounted for WAY more than you are saying, including color info. But like the other gentleman said, you're not interested in accurate info, just skewing it to make your argument.

spearfish25

I have to agree with Snorman here. 90% of the general American public doesn't even know what 'The 'Ring' is. Hell, 90% of Z06 owners probably don't know what it is. Frankly, if you buy a car simply because it has a faster Nurburgring time than another car, you're a moron. The Motor Trend battle between the Viper and the ZR1 was testament to the stupidity of the automakers getting caught up in the idea that buyers care MOST about lap times. "Oh, I can't get a ZR1 now because that Viper TA beat it by 0.08s at Laguna Seca when Randy Probst was driving." 5 minutes in either car would make it clear which one you were going to buy regardless of VIR and Laguna lap times. And Viper sales once again have tanked.

Snorman

So you think Dodge is understating sales numbers?
Post the link so we can read about this. I haven't seen it on VOA. This is an interesting conspiracy theory...you know...that Dodge would report far lower sales numbers than actual.
I posted the link to Viper sales figures, so if you want to dispute them post data not nonsense.
Bottomline...ACR track records have had no measurable effect on sales (just as the record-setting Gen IV Nurburgring run did not).
S.

mfain

A Ring time is not absolute, but it is an indicator of potential. For those of us only interested in track performance, it is worthy of consideration. But when a company brags about their Ring performance, displays a Ring logo with their roll-out, makes cute remarks about being "very satisfied", and then goes silent, something smells rotten, and is disrespectful of potential, serious track-oriented buyers at the very least. I didn't buy a car for the fastest Ring time - SRT has not even posted a time for the 2016 ACR! I bought the car for its demonstrated track performance prior to SEMA and its record of being able to stay on track in the heat for a reasonable period of time - I live in the desert SW. I did not buy the other car partially because of the lack of a Ring time for reasons unknown. A record of running hot didn't help.

Moron.....Oops, I mean Pappy

mfain

dsevo is correct about a VOA member tracking the VINs, plus a lot of guys post their VINs when it gets assigned. As I tried to point out, assigned VINs do not equal sales in the official manufacturer tracking numbers. A sale is consummated when the car is delivered/paid for. There is a healthy lag time right now between an order being placed and delivery (up to 5 months), so the sales numbers will lag until the cars are delivered. I ordered my car on Nov 12th, got a VIN a week later, and it was delivered on Apr 13th. ACRs ordered after the SEMA track record notification are just now starting to show up at their delivery destinations. Let's see what those numbers look like a little down the road.

Pappy

CFHay

What about the runs at Road Atlanta and VIR, those were pretty good indicators of potential. Concern about overheating in LV weather is perfectly understandable but the lack of a ring time having any part in it

mfain

You are right, and I took particularly the VIR performance into consideration, but it was not enough to push me in that direction. It was before head-to-head competition with the ACR at the same track on the same day. I spend time on track with C7Zs and I see what they are going through respect to over-heating and pulled timing. With regards to the lack of a Ring time, part of it was disgust with the way GM handled the whole situation - like we were 2-yr olds - and part because they actually ran the Ring, crashed one car, and failed to pony up with any specifics of the performance. Disingenuous, and an indicator that there were underlying problems that they were not willing to discuss.

Pappy