racerns

Yes, in this case "the boss man" was Larry Webster the RT Test editor. His best time was used for all the cars.

kverges

That's because THIS "other car" comparo gets to stay here and the press release on the ACR's 13 track records went to the land of the misfit posts. The numbers are a bit different there.

GP1224

[QUOTE=CPhelps;1590882048]The LT1 rating in the Camaro SS at 455 matches the C7 without NPP though, right? The NPP is what boosts the LT1 up to 460, iirc.

Many German manufacturers test to the ECE standard which is more stringent and requires running longer, and taking an average of the power produced. The longer running adds more heat which pulls the numbers down some, so when they are then dyno tested with a quick pull here and corrected to SAE, it seems like they are "underrated".

The ACR was faster. I'm impressed the C7 Z07 was as close as it was, but that doesn't take anything away from the ACR being a straight up beast on the track.

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Yes... the ACR was .11 of a second faster. No argument there.

GP1224

Ok got it.

kverges

I generally appreciate your posts, but don't get too uppity about "racing experience." I've tried to ask you about yours and heard nothing. And really, the ACR is not designed to race, it's designed for (pretty hard core) track driving, which really is quite a bit different. It's totally sensible to not want the ACR because it is loaded with tradeoffs for the track over the road. Perhaps the biggest is that I think you have to really lower the car to get the aero optimized and that is going to present all kinds of challenges to street driving the car.

I say this because I am a genuine fan of all the cars in this comparo, actually, and each have their strengths and weaknesses. No need to dis' anyone's choice of a car or claim any car is "better" than the other because there are too many tradeoff and subjective preferences involved. I'd like for these threads to stay in this part of the forum, as I think a reasonable discussion of Z06 vs ___ is relevant to owners and non-owners alike, but folks seem to want to bait one another into crap that gets the threads removed.

Over at rennlist, for example, there are multiple ACR threads that get to stay in the GT3 subforum (and for that matter Corvette threads get to stay, too) - you know what's missing? Childish baiting and pissing on one another.

harlold

This line says it all, why the rag writers are nothing more than writers who happen to write about cars.

"SRT's Chris Winkler shifts into fifth at the same place I normally hit the brakes and turns what I consider a 110-mph right-hander into a 135-mph no-brake right-hander by hucking the steering wheel of the Viper ACR as hard as he can and letting the massive rear wing sort out the stability, I have to work very hard not to vomit."

Factor engineer is accelerating while they are braking hard, at a deficit of 25mph.

Switch out cars for washing machines and their opinions are just as valid.

NineBall

Did you bother to check your PM inbox? You can also find my phone number on my business page. DV8motoring.com

Happy to answer any questions you might have.

GP1224

And... being that this is a CORVETTE C7 Z06 forum then saying the Z06 did amazing and basically as fast (.11 off) in this test as the ACR is just fact. Facts are what they are and thats that and I could care less if a few cheerleaders get bent out out of shape because the Z06 was so close. Great time for the big 3 as I said. No issues here

kverges

Sorry, missed the PM and when I tried to reply said your box was full. To respond in part I was not trying to discredit you, but you seem to enjoy stirring the pot (and I am hardly innocent) and I thought your race experience was more straight line than road course so I was being a bit of a devil's advocate about you getting into anyone's face about not "racing." It's a slippery slope and a guy like Randy Pobst could bitch slap me over my race experience, so I try to temper my remarks a bit 'cause there's always someone faster, richer and better looking.

I'm pretty much an open book, have ordered an ACR, and intend to put it on track (but not race it). I have to be honest that I expect that experience to be loaded with compromise and that the car, once optimized for track, will be a challenge to street drive and therefore respect the more rounded performance of the Z06, especially for the more casual or occasional track driver. But it also seems clear to me that anyone with real pace who runs the Z06 on track for 20+ minutes at a time will have to baby the car or modify it (with at present unproven changes) so for me, the Z is not presently an option. But all the cars today are great and no need to dis' anyone or their choice.

Bottom line is if everyone would throttle back a bit maybe we could keep other car discussions here and all be the better for it.

kverges

Driver always matters and true the reported lap times for the ACR and Z were for all intents and purposes identical. But you probably should acknowledge that the driver appears to have no experience with downforce and therefore did not exploit the ACR's high speed grip. Driving with downforce is an acquired and somewhat counterintuitive skill, but in my book the ACR has a lot more potential on track than the Z, at the admitted expense of losing street usability in the process.

Like you said, great performance by all of the American makes and no bad choices.

NineBall

Agreed. We used to have excellent tech discussions on this site. The C7Z forum is an anomoly for some reason. I enjoy the track posts by guys who actually do run their cars. Wish they would create a separate tracking/racing subforum here, to allow comparison posts. Absurd that they bury stuff here, makes the site lose tech credibility. Then you have to sift through the fanboy posts with all the opinions and no experience, no added value. That gets annoying.

kverges

We are clearly on the same page. I also don't get it, but I will say most of the people posting on this forum are sensible.

GP1224

I agree the ACR should be faster being its got far far more downforce than the Z, wider tires, racing coil over's as well as being lighter. The fact is the Z did a hell of a job in this test, even faster than the 488, so we'll see what comes in the next tests... and maybe even at Laguna if MT do another retest... if they think GM deserve it. The only other times right now with pro skill drivers would be the VIR for both cars, and the difference there was about 1 sec with the ACR being faster, but Mero did say he had a missed shift, and a 2:40 is what he should have done. I would like to see Mero hit some of the tracks the ACR hit just to see more comparos with that caliber a driver behind the Z since SRT had their TG. And yes its a pretty cool time for US cars thats for sure. C7Z, ACR, GT350R, and the Ford GT on the way. Not bad at all.

JonathonK

Here's my front page take on the final voting....
https://www.corvetteforum.com/articl...r-of-the-year/

Deuuuce

What some may have missed is the ACR, pro driven, lapped VIR in 2:40.02 along with 12 other track records (1:28.65 at MRLS, beating the 918 and P1).

Mero did at 2:41.42. Both very impressive.

Also bringing back the Z/28 vs. GT350 debate, the Z/28 does 5-60mph .2 seconds quicker for those debating torque vs. hp and gearing. But weighs nearly 150lbs less.


Z is a great street and GT car. The ACR is a hardcore track car.


Because it makes more hp than the ZR1 with a smaller supercharger?


Because it doesn't have weight reduction and a roll cage?

Lower the car to get it optimized? True, but you do realize the top end was reduced by nearly 30mph due to the aero. And it makes something like 1400lbs of downforce. Any lower and they may have to reduce the aero to run quicker on the faster tracks. It changes at each track.

there is no conspiracy, I'm sure price played into. Similarly the C&D VIR test, they said the 911 GT3 RS? was the best car at the Lightning Lap but wasn't the quickest. C&D said the same of the 911 TT S but figured price into it.

mjf6175

"What some may have missed is the ACR, pro driven,....."

The driver was Chris Winkler. While he is Dodge/Viper engineer, do not know if he qualifies as "pro". There is another thread on the R&T PCOY and I posted the video.

Deuuuce

Well he's a hotshoe and chassis engineer employed by a vehicle manufacturer to turn hot laps, he's a Pro. That doesn't mean he has to have podium finishes, it means he's paid to drive for a living.

He holds 11 of the 13 lap records and in '99 & '00 the same name in Detroit had SCCA Driver of the Year awards in that region.

I would say he's a pro like Mero.

descartesfool

AMG GT-S beats them all in straight line acceleration. It is the fastest car 0-30, 0-60, 0-100 and second fastest 0-150 mph. It beats the Z06 and ACR and all the others up to 110 mph. It beats them all in the 1/4 mile with an 11.3. Who would have thought that. Ferrari was not tested.


http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...r-of-the-year/

NineBall

Your point isn't clear. I read the previous post like you were talking up Chris Winkler, and seemed to downplay Jim Mero. Both are equally talented, both have the same jobs at their respective companies. Both hold company records, Mero has all of GM's Nurburgring and VIR records.

How come nobody talks about Road Atlanta? Over 3 seconds ahead, with engineer Winkler driving the ACR, vs Corvette Team racer Milner driving the Z07? Engineer beating an actual pro, by 3 seconds, is quite impressive.

Blvdbrawler

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