ElCid79

I think the Z06 looks like a Ferrari and a Lambo hybrid. Take the best of both looks, and smash them together.

Busa Dave

Hey if you choose to remain ignorant that is your call. The specifications, qualification testing, materials used for our products are not something that commercial vehicle manufactures would even consider because of the different operating environments and requirements. Your statement " Will some dust and grime decrease the overall efficiency of an HE? Sure, in extreme cases...but you are greatly exaggerating it." is certainly one worth of a ignorant Fan Boy who does not about the subject that he is talking about. A degradation in a system cooling that is operating close to its operational design limits is not good for reliability and maintainability after the warranty period expires.


If you have had you car on your lift that you claim and had the rear fascia off you would certainly understand that not "nearly every other car" has the number of heat exchangers the Z06 does. There are oil lines wrapped in special coverings with aluminum on the outside to dissipate heat. If you have not had these parts off of your car you have not actually seen the heat exchangers I am speaking of. These are not able to be readily accessed as the primary heat exchangers are in the front of the car to be cleaned as required.


Your point regarding the fluids and the maintenance of said fluids is absolutely correct. Had the tranny and rear end done on mine this week even if there is only 9k on it.


It is very simple---the Z06 cannot be cooled sufficiently with "conventional" for the sake of our discussion heat exchangers located in the front of the vehicle due to lack of air flow and physical size limitations. The cheapest engineering fix for GM was to add heat exchanger in unconventional areas. This was no other alternative and does add a certain amount of complexity to the process.


The only point I have made is that with the known issues with cooling and the inability to clean without removal of parts performance degradation will occur.


"If you're such an expert about it, then provide some data showing a "degradation" of cooling ability for heat exchangers used in this application over time"


Do not know where you live however, assume you have HAVC in your domicile. Ask your tech when he does your spring or fall check up this question and all will become clear...

Mr. Jones

back to the OP issue
I am a C7 Z51 owner so you may have to cut me some slack here.
If they had 91 octane in the car and added 101 octane I don't buy the bad gas explanation.
But add oil for the sump tank and or PVC system and the octane would be degraded. Every high RPM run would pull timing and the computer would start to reduce overall power all the time with an ongoing condition.

Oh Chevy has styled the Vette many times after Ferrari.
Nothing new-GM even had a Ferrari on site for their Fiero engineering.

ElCid79

Has your car overheated Busa?

mdull

Well if you could read! maybe two posts down another less rude poster corrected me and I admitted my mistake. So take a minute read other posts and don't go off making yourself more stupid than the one who may have been wrong (me) in the first place

Snorman

It's comical how you label anybody who disagrees with you a "fan boy". That clearly makes you the ignorant one.
The lift that I "claim"? Yes Dave...I have a BendPak HD9 (see below). And there is a radiator, intercooler HE and AC condenser in the front of the Z06. There are also two additional HE's in the back of the car, for the transmission (both M7 and A8) and the differential. In the A8 cars, there is a secondary trans cooler in the front, lying flat and completely covered from underneath of the car. And yes, many cars (all cars?) have radiators and most have AC condensors and many (all FI cars) have intercooler HE's. These are all located in very similar places. The front of the car. I would suggest you re-read my posts before making half-cocked replies, as I never stated "nearly every other car has the number of heat exchangers the Z06 does". I do, however, have other cars with at least as many HE's as the Z06. I suppose I should start to worry about degradation of performance of those in "the next 12 to 24 months" as well.
Under certain circumstances (on-track, ambient temps, driver skill) the Z06's cooling becomes marginal. I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing your claim of degradation of performance in "the next 12-24 months". I've asked you to provide data to support this claim, and rather than do so, you'll simply make the ignorant and stupid claim that I'm a "fan boy", as you usually do. And yes, the next time I have an HVAC PM, I'll ask the tech the similarities between an AC condenser that's sitting outside, under a tree, in the middle of a mulch bed, throughout all seasons (rain, snow, hot, cold) and a trans cooler tucked into the quarter panel of my Z06.
When you have data that supports elevated trans oil temps, differential oil temps, intercooler fluid temps, engine coolant temps and engine oil temps as a result of normal use and while following manufacturer recommended maintenance as a result of "dirt and grime even corrosion from road conditions", let me know.
S.

Busa Dave

If you never drive your cars on the road like most do mine will get about 18k a year and is sometimes driven in rain for hundreds of miles at a time. The rich fan boys just take them out in fair weather or just run them on the track. I drive my vehicles---they are not Just toys. When driving 2k in 4 days these types of things are important.


Will not be cross country driving As Much because I am turning the Vette into a street car--off with most of the aero and adding a couple to three hundred more hp (not completely defined yet).


If you are familiar with the Navier-Stokes equations or if you are not here is a published White Paper that goes into detail of heat sink fouling. There will be many parts you are not going to understand quite frankly because of comments you made above however, it does speak extensively to the point that Dirty Heat Exchangers lose capacity in HAVC or Aircraft.


Some not all of this paper will help you to understand what I am speaking of. If after reading if you do not understand the importance of thermal transfer and the direct detrimental effect Fouling has on the thermal capability of the heat exchanger then I just give up.


https://ip.sandia.gov/techpdfs/Funda...20Approach.pdf

TARANTULA

I don't know if I'm following this correctly. But I'm pretty sure the next 6 months are when corvette owners drive their cars the least (weather). How is that going to reduce the efficiency of the heat exchanger?

KustomsbyKev

Since you are new to the forum I guess you do not know how knowledgable and helpful Snorman is to this community. Sean is pretty intelligent and knows his stuff, I don't think you are going to win this argument!

Busa Dave

Facts are facts---they have been submitted and if he does not understand then the well the memory is the first to go lol.

Snorman

I'm not denying that a fouled or damaged HE will lose efficiency. The HE's packaged in passenger cars are not like units sitting out in the elements and subject to environmental and interior fouling as a result of huge quantities of fluids that often contain particulates and precipitates. The front HE's are largely contained and covered. The rear HE's are contained and covered. I'm not sure what substantial "dirt and grime" you expect to get in there with normal and routine use. The leading surface of any HE (radiator, intercooler HE, condenser) that gets covered with bugs, leaves, etc. should be kept clean on a somewhat regular basis. That's normal maintenance, as I previously stated should be performed.

I've asked you to support your claim that in "the next 12-24 months" there will be a degradation in performance. You've also stated that these cooling systems are "close to its operational design limits". That becomes true only during track use, which has been discussed ad nauseum. Using your logic, nearly every car out there these days will suffer a "degradation" in performance/cooling in "the next 12 to 24 months" because nearly everything is packaged with the radiator/HE's contained from the elements and damage in 2015.

So if you have some data to support a measureable decrease in HE effectiveness in a "12 to 24 month" period in an automotive application, it would be good to see. Otherwise, I'll take your initial comment for what it was worth.
S.

Busa Dave

Good Lord--I do not know what else to do. READ the WP. Air coming across the "vehicles" HE is going to be fouled! Driving in dusty conditions, the dirty water spray ingression from highway driving in the rain, salt residue in spray etc. into every heat exchanger opening. This air flow containing contaminates that cannot be washed off or cleaned from the rear HE's because of where they are located.


Additionally, for the front heat exchangers they can be cleaned however, over time they will lose efficiency as well. Car has problems with heat now and they are new... Not going to get better and to your point the internal corrosion must be kept in check as well--my coolants get flushed every 12 months have been doing this for many years.

SBC_and_a_stick

Or we can pretent that rocks, tire chunks, and road debris never makes it into heat exchangers, not.

Snorman

Don't forget roofing nails, stray 2x4's and small animals. I'm quite sure those will all have a negative effect on the efficiency of a HE as well.
S.

SBC_and_a_stick

Sounds like you had an off roading adventure. I hope the PDR was on when you hit the neighbor's cat!

I was thinking more down to earh matter, such as rocks that stick to Hoosiers and get thrown right into the front HE, or chunks of tire. I picked up a nice 2x1 inch chunk of tire from the rear left brake duct just after Laguna Seca last Saturday. I got hit by shrapnel on my left cheek with the targa off! The contaminants are real!

Answer me this. Why do track organizers require you to wear eye protection (ie.sunglasses) with an open face helmet in an open top car?

NemesisC5

LMFAO....Good catch I tried to divert attention to get a break in the bitching. It actually worked better than anticipated

froggy47

Here is my heat exchanger (radiator) on my c5z. Notice at 6:00 how clean it was when I replaced it.

I am pretty good at reading my owner's manual & don't recall any recommended service interval on this item, maybe I missed it.

Reciprocal

It’s wrong to consider one variable in isolation like the heat exchanger. It’s degradation will be a contributor but you have to consider all the other factors as well. The car loosens up as it wears in and generates less heat at the same time as its HE’s are getting less efficient. And you can’t ignore the effect of ambient temperature is a much larger factor on temperature than the dirty layer on the HE. So you have to consider the design decisions that were made in total as manipulators of the performance envelope. You start with a car that’s the same size and contact patch as the ZR1, but it’s heavier and you want more downforce. The frontal area isn’t any greater than before but you’re diverting more air to create downforce, which requires air velocity. Downforce robs top speed and adds drag, so for any given speed more heat is produced so you need heat exchangers which have to be large and poorly located because you have to keep them out of the airstream that’s producing the downforce. The experience seems to suggest that the design choices (as well, more horsepower and torque) have increased the heat generated. Did the MT car throw any codes?

SBC_and_a_stick

MT didn't say if there are any codes. But I can tell you that there is no way to lay a 1:38 at Laguna Seca in limp mode. The car is throttled back to no more than 200hp with a full on check engine light. It won't rev past 3,500 rpms either. If there was a code, it would not be one associated with limp mode.

I must say, no matter how bad the car fell appart in my hands I could always drive it to the dealer. Knock on wood, no faults left me stranded at the side of the road so far.

Busa Dave

Snorman--take a look at Froggy's video. No need to apologize I know that when you have "your man" do the radiator when he is doing the other maintenance he does not show you these types of things but maybe he should.


You live where I do it is hot and running with ac is a fact of life (going to be 95 today) keeping things clean is a way of life. Every trip to the ranch will wash out my front heat exchangers on my truck. Cannot believe what comes out of there. The biggest problem the finely powdered NM caliche does not wash off very easily. I buy simple green by the gallon go through so much of it or use the Windex window cleaner that attaches to the hose to get it clean. Wish I had a "man" to do my maintenance for me.