6104696

So, what is the consensus on rollover safety in the coupe? Safest with the roof panel in, or roof panel out?


I could make the argument either way. Argument for roof in is that some protection over your head (or helmet) is better than none. Argument for roof out is that it seems quite likely that the roof panel would break loose in a violent rollover, and could be pushed into the passenger compartment and become a dangerous projectile.


Of course it is likely or at least possible that centripetal force would toss the panel clear, but then again impact with the ground could also push it into the passenger compartment.


I am pretty sure that most road courses would allow you to run roof in or roof out, since the rollover protection is not in the roof. I have seen enough track day rollovers to think that this is worthy of consideration (I do recognize that our cars would likely be a bit faster with the roof in; I also recognize that if you are running with the roof out on the track, you would be foolish to clip the panel into the rear storage area. You would want to leave it in a bag with your other gear, in the pits).


Any thoughts, data, or experience with this?

Snorman

It's not just a matter of the roof shattering or whether or not it provides protection in the event of a rollover. There is also the issue of occupant containment. In an open roof car, any racing organization will require arm-restraints. This is to avoid extremities getting crushed in the event of a rollover. When a car starts barrel rolling off-track, limbs start flailing. While that's not very likely to happen at many tracks, there are certainly some where it's a relatively common occurrence.
My own opinion is that the car should be tracked with the roof panel in place.

S.

Rguy271

Top on for me. Limb protection, and the wind would bother me..

Also, in some tracks if you go off the dust and crap tumbles into the car...roof on would help prevent that..

6104696

In the track days that I have run at Summit Point, they have always required windows open so that exposes the vehicle and the occupants to some level of limb risk and dirt/dust/wind exposure. As far as I can tell, they do not require arm restraints for open top cars; they just require adequate roll bars or other rollover protection. The published rules for convertibles at VIR HPDE's (including the NCM event earlier this year) only mention roll bars...nothing about arm restraints).


There was a guy running an ariel atom at Summit Point a few years ago....he only had safety belts IIRC (5 point, though).


I generally agree with the two posts above, though, and I am pretty sure that all the corvette track testing that I have seen pictures above, FWIW, is with the roof in.

soulsea

Every time I see that video it pisses me off.

Yes the guy made a mistake and overcooked the corner but that an awful high price to pay simply because the track isn't properly maintained and the car dug in ... I don't mean high price just in terms of damage to the vehicle, more so in regard to potential injury.

And then there's this that recently happened which makes me cringe at the thought of a Z06 vert in the same situation, cause it doesn't take much:

Snorman

While various HPDE organizations may not require arm restraints. If I was running an open top car, I personally would want them.
Unless you're running on a super speedway (i.e. Daytona), typically it is required to keep windows open. In an emergency, that side window isn't going to stop them for more than a couple of seconds.
S.

Snorman

That could happen at lots of tracks. Go wide in T3 at RRR, try to bring the car back on track and put it sideways and see what happens. Or worse, in T9. A lot of drivers will try to counter-steer as if it'll help in the dirt and grass. Typically it'll just pitch the car a little and you risk digging the leading side tires into the dirt.

S.

soulsea

I don't remember ant green side bunkers at RRR like that one ... I'll have to pay closer attention next time.

Bill Dearborn

The left front dug in because he had the steering turned to the right. That would have happened at a lot of tracks that don't have large paved run off areas for the car to slow down in. A lot of people think a track like the one in the video has a lot of run off room when it really doesn't since it is so easy to dig in a wheel if you can't get the steering corrected fast enough. As for the guy's mistakes, yes he apexed early but there are many reasons why somebody might need to apex early and people should practice offline corner entries, early apexing just in case they get caught in some unexpected situation where they will need to make the less than optimal corner entry. His big mistake was in trying to bring the car back on track after his left side wheels dropped off the pavement. He should have just driven off track, let off the gas and once the car slowed brought it easily back onto the pavement. That way he would have had a lot of run off room.

Bill

soulsea

Letting it go off track instead of correcting it is a lesson I leaned myself the hard way. On some tracks it could have been a wall he hit instead of what happened, so I understand that and I wasn't really commenting on the driver's actions. Although to be fair I don't know for a fact that he overcorrected, it almost looks like once the left tires hit the sand it just shot the car to the right without any input from the driver.

That said imo that was a pretty stable slide and there was plenty of runoff room for the car to come to an uneventful stop. There is no reason to have such a deep bunker right off the track when it can be easily addressed. A little more attention to basic track maintenance would have made that a non incident instead of a major one, especially since from the looks of it the desert he plowed through that flipped him seemed to have been raked numerous times by other vehicles, so it is obviously a known problem area.

I guess it's just me ... but I see track day events as a shared responsibility. I try to do my best to be as safe as possible within the context of driving fast and the track does likewise from their end.

--------------------------

You know what? I just watched it again for the 20th time and I just noticed that he was already bouncing on his left side before he even hit the bunker, so he already had his right wheels off the ground exiting the track.

So even though I still think that part of the track could use a little more love I retract the intensity of my outrage.

davepl

There were a number of things he could have done differently, but it shows how unforgiving speed is.

This is the video I need to convince the wife I need a coupe next to the convertible :-)

DaveN007

When my daughter got her license I had her do a Teen Car Control Clinic at Thunderhill where this was one of the lessons they taught by having her drop two wheels off into the dirt at highway speeds.

Over-correcting is a big cause of wrecks on the street. Not just the track.

If you have driving age kids, have them do this. It was one of the best days spent with her.

NASA does them. Google it.

6104696

So then the consensus is that the safest way to roll a corvette coupe is to convert it to a BMW with the sunroof open?

Babaron

In addition to all of the above, you definitely would not want the extra drag with top off racing. It would be significant and this car definitely does not need any more drag.

OVR60

The Corvette has never had a safety rating and if there is one please post it because I could never find one, maybe it's best not to know

TTRotary

Roof panel in would afford more protection, but it would probably separate in a multiple rotation rollover. It really depends on what the car strikes or where it goes.

As for overall rollover safety, the car will hold up, but not all that well from what I have seen. You can find pics of C6 Z06s that were rolled and the A and B pillars show a surprising amount of crushing and deformation. You have to remember that this is no longer a steel structure. The car is safe, but it is no Mercedes.

As for the convertible ... let's just say that after seeing a few pics of rolled C6 Verts with the roof down, I would not want to be the occupant. As much as I would love to have a Vert, the safety thing just keeps me away.

DLC7

Interesting thread. The BMW that performed that little trick.......First of all he is going the wrong way. The road he is on is called Stunt Road.
We never run Stunt Road going up.... Always going down.



It used to be (back in the late 80's) shut down for brief periods of time. When i was just a bit younger and crazier, we would run this road on skateboards in the luge position with BMX shoulder pads, Full face helmets......looking back i cant believe how stupid that was......the only brakes you had were your hands and feet......put it this way.....its dangerous even on a mountain bike.....

DLC7

Here is the thing.......The last two weeks in particular, i have been on a bit of a fact finding mission with regard to the Harness Bars.

After talking with several fabrication shops.....they just dont believe the Shark bar would be adequate in a rollover scenario like with the Audi.
A common theme with two of the three shops. Was that the Sharkbar is purely for street use, and I qoute " for guys who want to look cool on the street"
They will work as far as keeping you in your seat.......

More specifically, this was explained as, being due to the fact that, the Sharkbar is a "one-size fits all" set up. Meaning that for those of us who are 6 ft tall or less, the angle of the restraints, as they are attached to the bar itself, are not correct. Supposed to be a 5-15 degree angle. If the proper fitting is not done, the worry is compressing your spine.
Actually the person i am getting all this info from performs tech inspection for speed ventures events...jus saying.....

I could care less how ANY restraints system looks. Its only for safety. My solution is: Having a custom Harness Bar personalized/fabricated to my body size. Will report back here when it is finally installed. ( had to make an appointment which is two weeks out)

BWFitz

Of course!

BWFitz

Stunt road? That was Willow Springs International Raceway.