ElCid79

And if you watch the video. One of the guys, and possibly both I can't remember, said that if they could only take one home it would be the z06. Yes, they gave the win to the viper. Which is okay. It was predominantly a track test. But clearly they liked the z06.

usdmpwr07

The Viper is basically a racecar converted for the street. The Z06 is too, but the Viper is just way more raw. I'd take the Viper in real life since they are rare, but the Z06 is just a better all around car.

harlold

Yeah, he also said the Viper only made power over 5000 RPM, great point of reference.

2019 ZR1

All I'm gong to say is Zora ZR1... So Chrysler got there car out first. I can't wait for GM's big boy to compete with this Viper..

The Voice of Reason

You've clearly stumbled into a performance discussion by accident. These cars are marketed as the pinnacle of performance from two American brands. I'll go as far to say that even the yet unreleased Ford GT won't match either of these cars performance so the comparison of track performance of two American factory stock cars is of importance. If you disagree then don't even bother reading this thread, it's not for you.

Snorman

The Ford GT is going to destroy both of these cars. I've heard from a little birdie that Ford and Ganassi testing of the GT at Sebring produced :57's. And the car isn't even fully sorted for qualifying.
I wouldn't be surprised to see an out-of-the-box car on stock tires run sub-teens.
S.

mcoomer

I think it's pretty obvious at this point the C7 Z06 is not the most track capable Corvette ever. I'm no expert on the matter but I think most folks would concede that honor to the C5. What I do believe is that the C7 Z06 is the most well rounded, well built Corvette ever. If that's good enough for you, put one in your driveway and be happy. If not, keep hoping that the C7 ZR1 or the C8 take the game to a higher level.

We've now seen several of these comparisons where the Z06 comes up short against cars that it should beat. The most recent that I can remember is the MT Best Driver's Car of 2015. Long before that, there was the track test versus the Nissan GTR where it was bested before it was determined that the car needed a a different caster adjustment and "rough track" software for the suspension. They got a mulligan on that one. There have been a number of tests where everyone raves about the car but says it comes up a hair short versus this car or that car. When it happens once you can overlook it. This is a pattern of being very, very good but not quite there. I think it points to another fact as well.

Some manufacturers take a no holds barred approach to design, build and testing. They spare no expense in design and materials and their cars are the supercars that most of us lust after. They've built reputations as builders of the finest driving machines you can buy and they capitalize on that when you go to buy one. You have to be fairly well off to buy even some of the more moderately priced exotics that Europe has to offer. They spend a lot of time and money building their cars and reputations and when you go to buy one, you pay a premium for that. GM has upped it's game but they've made obvious compromises in the design of the car and materials used in its build and that shows up when you compare it to these other vehicles. Accountants with MBA's had a hand in building this car and they were looking at the bottom line. The flip side of that is that a blue collar guy can save up some cash, go to his local Chevy dealer and buy one. Guess what? I have a decent job, didn't finish college, I'm saving my money, and I can look forward to buying one of these in the near future. A nicely optioned Porsche? A new Ferrari? Lamborghini? I'd not be able to buy one of those without selling my house and moving into a van down by the river. My wife said yes to a Z but she'll never live in a van.

I've rambled on a bit (sorry for that) but in short, the C7 Z06 is a great car. I've wanted one forever and I'm very much looking forward to putting one in my garage. It's more car than I'll ever be able to use. I'll never push it to the 10/10 that will expose its flaws on the road or track. I'm going to buy it, drive it till I die, and hopefully someone in my family will take care of it after I'm gone. That's good enough for me.

Mike

Dethred

Oh dear, what a predictable thread.

To clarify:

The ACR has AC as standard, those were just lazy journalists plagiarizing from 1992 reviews... as usual.

The ACR can be as well equipped as a GTS, if one so chooses. Such an equipped car puts the exterior AND interior fit and finish of the Z06 to absolute shame.

The ACR, nor any Viper for that matter, is designed, engineered, marketed (or the complete lack thereof), or generally aimed at being a high volume car. Claiming the sales numbers dictate success is like claiming the carpet at a high end restaurant makes all the difference. Viper sales have been in the same ballpark for 23 years, and the factory isn't even set up for a higher volume than is being produced. This is a hand made supercar, not a mass produced sports car designed to appeal to everyone from a young woman to a pensioner as a daily driver than can hold its own on track.

Let's stick to reality, even if this is the corvette forum.

Snorman

I've been in and around enough Gen V's to say this isn't really very accurate.
While Prefix does a very nice job of hand painting the body panels, panel fit is sometimes in question, particularly of the rear hatch and hood. And the interiors of both cars are very comparable.
But Prefix does nice paint.
S.

Dabigsnake

It's actually $33,630 more for the as tested Viper, and it's 131lbs lighter, and its brutal and painful as they explained. I think they are both awesome cars, but too different to really compare in this way. The Viper does exactly what it was designed to do, as a steet-able RACE car, while the Z06 does exactly what it was designed to do, as a Race-able STREET car. Both fine cars, and both winners, especially compared to those slower cars at three times the price. I'm betting I can put $33,000 into my Z07 A8, and Randy can match that time of the ACR.......yeah, I know, as long as it's not too hot out there and they don't run too many laps.....OK, OK, I'm done

truth.b

Seriously, really....

RC000E

Considering most dealers put their lowest level techs on the alignment and oil change racks, not to mention an even lower skill set that exists in most run of the mill shops. I think caster will really be an issue the owner of the car needs to be aware of, and ensures is verified...definitely.




End of day, you can extract one definite conclusion here...it shows itself in the Z06, as well as the Z28, in their respective segments. In addition, Jim Mero spoke at length about this issue, dating back to the first ZR1 Nurburgring record.

With the current GM approach, these cars are at their limit, given their architecture. Even Tadge himself, who has lobbied extensively for a mid-engine Corvette, and nearly got it prior to the real estate/bailout debacles, has admitted this platform is at its edge.

Here's my take...read it...like it or not...don't matter

Let's be 100% real, this Z06 is a compromise. The facts exist in history and in statements made my multiple people, when compiled.

1. Mero admitted, that while the Z07 (C6) was very slightly slower at the Ring than the ZR1, the Z07 was immensely easier to drive fast. He said the ZR1 torque onset was absolutely about throttle modulation to get exit speed. He said the ZR1 pushed going in, and oversteered coming out. ELSD fixed the push, along with refined distribution...now it mid turn oversteers and can't put the power down.
2. Tadge's own statements in the early 2000's to GM brass were that the platform was at it's limit. When the budget was slashed for C7, the forced compromise to ATTEMPT to make a viable ZR1 successor was to move the engine rearward. As a result, the C7 got an inch more wheelbase (engine 4 inches further back in total). From there, it's a matter of techno trickery to attempt to get the car to perform...ELSD, PTM, gen 4 mag, new Michelins, etc.
3. The ZR1 was trapped in an era when it couldn't sell. It didn't mean the market didn't exist, it's just that with consumer confidence low, "toy" money wasn't being spent in 2009 to nearly...now. The ZR1 had to die, because no one wanted it/could afford it.
4. The Z06 brand was coveted...the most marketable subbrand within Corvette, but it too suffered during the downturn, but ONLY because of its hard roof and tranny to the older demographics.
5. Moving forward, GM having slashed the budget for C7, made a decision to cash in on the Z06 brand, cut the cost, make it open top, with an auto, a convertible, etc...to meet sales targets AND have a successor to the ZR1. Fact was though, the CTS-V needed a platform to share with, so supercharged it was. So, the compromise was made...let's see if we can cash in with our best engineering effort, in the HOPES we get to the next step...the plan from 10 years ago.
6. Multiple people within GM knew the ZR1 was pushing the limits of the chassis and the tire. Michelin, ELSD, PTM, Tadge's attempt to redistribute weight....all equaled a pretty good car, but it's growth was stunted. Supercharged, huge torque onset is an issue. This is why linear power delivery in the ACR, GT3RS and the GT350R are beating the Z06/Z28.
7. The future is less mass....it has to be. The trend is obviously known with Camaro using the alpha platform.
8. In the end, I think the internal goal was...sell the C7...a lot of them. Meet early benchmarks and do a "midyear" update that possibly reveals a real "card" that was held for budgetary reasons.

The case for mid-engine

The fact is, there has NEVER been a bigger case to be made for a mid engine Corvette. The stars HAVE officially aligned...it simply comes down to budget, plan and willingness for GM to take the "risk".

1. Ford just put out FordGT, built "out of house", and GM was worked with Prodrive in the UK
2. Daytona Prototypes have a following and have almost test marketed the C7 in a midengine variation...fans love the car.
3. Weight distribution
4. Bob Lutz spoke at one seminar about the discussion of how Corvette freedom would come with it being it's own brand. The ability to have a mid-engine HALO, a traditional GT, even an SUV, etc....basically, model the company after Porsche, starting from Performance, not utility (i.e. Chevrolet). We can see a potential triple brand parallel with Corvette, Chevrolet, Cadillac all sharing components and executing a performance, luxury and affordability brand in unison.
5. The C7's frame is clearly modular. Whether someone wants to call the spy shot of the "Ute" a midengine Corvette, or an elcamino, NO ONE can deny the spy shot shows a C7 center capsule, with a redefined proportion. This PROVES the C7 center cell, can be reconfigured. I don't care if that's the new Aussie S10, that IS a C7 center section, with a modified layout.
6. The market above Z06 is pretty loaded..GTR, NSX, Possible Supra, new Mclaren 570 (185k starting), GT3RS, etc. That sector could WELL use a Corvette recipe of affordability and *** kicking ability.

There also is no question that more linear power delivery MUST happen. Gm's patent on electric supercharging (versus belt driven via crank) is in the future. I think this could create a more linear power delivery from a lower displacement platform...boost by gear, etc.

Something is on the horizon...I can feel it.

0Tunerz Store

Hell NO.... I smile every time I walk out in the garage and still smiling when I drive down the street. Hell sometime I giggle like a little girl.

DRLC5

Well I am still happy that I bought my Z06 over a Viper. The ACR is overkill for ME. I really do not like the wing at all. Go American HP.

hootowlc7

I like the Viper but in the end, the Z06 rules if you want a car you can drive. With the numbers relatively close, I would rather have my Z06 any day of the week. The end revealed the truth. The Viper is a true track car without daily driver comfort and amenities Reminds me of the Z28. I see why some people own both the Viper and the Z06.

And from a looks point of view, the Viper is a big blob.

Price wise, my car was 99,850. How much is the ACR?

jimmyb

Exactly right. There IS a way to do it (lose weight) but it requires money which the Corvette team did not have.
Hopefully the success of the C7 (sales wise) will allow for enough budget to address the weight issue going forward (C8).

Jimmy

Dethred

The aforementioned Laguna interior with carbon fiber trim puts my 911's full natural leather interior to shame. There is more plastic on one C7 door panel than the entire interior of a well equipped Viper. The giant carbon fiber clamshell hood and rear hatch have a large gap the designers referred to as "overslam". The gaps are designed to allow for the flex of the two giant pieces. Out of the dozens of Gen V Vipers I've seen in person, I haven't seen a single panel gap issue. The gaps between the non-moving parts make it hard to slip a credit card through (roof, quarter panels, etc).

Snorman

There is a huge variance in 911 interior based on model. Obviously my 991 Turbo has full leather interior (with aluminum accents) and I think it's about on par with the C7, with maybe slightly better seat cover fitment. I've been in several Gen V's including an ACR and one with the upgraded Laguna interior and I'd say they are about on par with the C7 with the exception of the CF trim...which I don't have in my 3LZ car and don't personally like.

Non-moving parts shouldn't have gaps big enough to slip a credit card through. But the fact is that the hood and hatch on the Gen V often have pretty huge gaps, whatever reason Dodge wants to use.

My point is, there isn't a startling difference in quality between the cars. However Viper typically has very nice paint (even nicer than lots of other, more high end cars) as a result of Prefix.
S.

Dethred

There isn't a huge difference at all between a turbo and C4S with the same leather options. My Viper's interior is on a different level from my 911's. Almost every surface covered in Laguna leather vs the C7Z 3LZ interior is just no contest. I recommend sitting in a Viper and then a C7Z immediately afterwards. Sabelt seats covered in hand-stitched Laguna leather vs poorly fit coated leather is laughable. It's almost to the point at which subjective views mean nothing.

I recommend watching the Viper's exterior design presentation where the "overslam" is described. One of the largest carbon fiber pieces in the industry, but you want no gap? Back to reality...

I was in a position to buy an absolutely optioned-out Z06 twice this year, and I couldn't get over the quality issues with the car, ranging from mechanical, to interior plastic and leather seats that barely pass the "eh, good enough" standard.

Snorman

I did...most recently at COTA in two Gen V's (one ACR and one GTS with the upgraded interior) and my C7 was there because I was at a track event.
I believe the difference between the TT and the C4S is the A-pillars and headliner (sueded) and the TT has a full leather dash and door panels.
Pretty much all auto leather is coated. It has to be or it would be a mess.
S.