Testing of mid-engine Zora at Nürburgring
05-10-2016, 01:20 AM
#62
Le Mans Master
Tadge was pretty consistent prior to 2010, that the engine placement was an issue for the Corvette, to really extract anything more. They went to great lengths to move the engine back in the C7 when the budget wasn't approved/available to go mid-engine. I think the pressure has been there for some time.
We also know that Porsche is applying for waivers in Weathertech, to change to mid-engine. It's coming... More chance now than there has ever been.
We also know that Porsche is applying for waivers in Weathertech, to change to mid-engine. It's coming... More chance now than there has ever been.
05-10-2016, 02:09 AM
#63
05-10-2016, 07:49 AM
#64
It's going to be interesting for Lemans. The FordGT's have been running the Lemans tire compounds a bit longer, and their experience seemed to show itself at Laguna, which had the BMW's sliding around and the Corvettes struggling slightly. I really think that was the speed equation at Laguna, not to mention it's a tricky location. The Ferrari's and FordGT's had a clear advantage due to the tire.
With Corvette and FordGT's running in WEC, and IMSA sharing with the ACO, all it's BOP this year, I think the performance envelope of the cars is pretty well known.
I'm just going to say, on the tire front, that Michelin and GM run a tight ship together. I knew the Z06's tire dimensions in 2013, before anyone even knew if a Z06 would exist, and it was through talking to Michelin guys. They have to start tire development well ahead, so the fact we are seeing a "mid-engine" tire being developed for the race-track...well...deduce what you will.
For the people debating over a C8 mid-engine vs front-mid current...it's going to be both and there are going to be shared chassis components. The chassis is modular, the writing is on the wall. The powertrain engineers, internal to GM, have always stood by the fact that Corvette and V8 are synonymous, as is the FR platform, but expanding the brand is wise, as is developing alternative power plants. The only way you put a V6 in a Corvette, is to change the Corvette...i.e. add a pivotal machine to do it. Tadge's favorite word is "bandwidth" and that's the key...it's about sales bandwidth. We also know that Porsche has applied for waivers to move the 911's engine position to mid, indicating that there is going to be a shift in Porsche ahead, as waivers aren't forever...they are time holds.
If you look at all the facts in racing, in the world surrounding the manufacturers, and the current market...it's all pretty clear.
With Corvette and FordGT's running in WEC, and IMSA sharing with the ACO, all it's BOP this year, I think the performance envelope of the cars is pretty well known.
I'm just going to say, on the tire front, that Michelin and GM run a tight ship together. I knew the Z06's tire dimensions in 2013, before anyone even knew if a Z06 would exist, and it was through talking to Michelin guys. They have to start tire development well ahead, so the fact we are seeing a "mid-engine" tire being developed for the race-track...well...deduce what you will.
For the people debating over a C8 mid-engine vs front-mid current...it's going to be both and there are going to be shared chassis components. The chassis is modular, the writing is on the wall. The powertrain engineers, internal to GM, have always stood by the fact that Corvette and V8 are synonymous, as is the FR platform, but expanding the brand is wise, as is developing alternative power plants. The only way you put a V6 in a Corvette, is to change the Corvette...i.e. add a pivotal machine to do it. Tadge's favorite word is "bandwidth" and that's the key...it's about sales bandwidth. We also know that Porsche has applied for waivers to move the 911's engine position to mid, indicating that there is going to be a shift in Porsche ahead, as waivers aren't forever...they are time holds.
If you look at all the facts in racing, in the world surrounding the manufacturers, and the current market...it's all pretty clear.
You might be right about why the F GTs were fastest there. I'm just hoping the Le Mans BoP will be fair to everyone this year. Because if it isn't (like it has been in the past) then theres no point in watching the whole thing.
GM expanding the Corvette brand with a rear mid engine car would be cool IMO. But if they are going to put a six banger in it then they might as well keep it. There are rear mid V12s out there right now...
I don't get the fascination with TT six banger @ rear mid engine car..
05-10-2016, 08:27 AM
#65
Instructor
I don't know why some are still in denial or just wishing this car doesn't happen. There's just too many clues out there this time to still be denying or hating! Why be so pessimistic?? Tells a lot about a person and that's kind of sad!!
And the only GM vehicle that has the combination of cachet, heritage and affluent buyers/enthusiasts that can carry a $200K +/- price point is a Corvette and I hope they make it. It will only elevate the Corvette brand higher and that's a good thing!
Anyways, here's my guess/hope of what it will be.
1. Technology derived from the Volt paired with a high-revving V8 producing 750-850 HP
2. AWD
3. Carbon Fiber Tub/Body
4. DCT
5. Must be super exclusive! Three year run at 750-1,000/yr. max
6. Advanced technologies throughout
7. Interior oozing with quality and attention to detail...and no glue smell
8. A few exclusive colors that you will not see on any other GM car
9. Curb weight 3,000-3,100 Lbs
And the only GM vehicle that has the combination of cachet, heritage and affluent buyers/enthusiasts that can carry a $200K +/- price point is a Corvette and I hope they make it. It will only elevate the Corvette brand higher and that's a good thing!
Anyways, here's my guess/hope of what it will be.
1. Technology derived from the Volt paired with a high-revving V8 producing 750-850 HP
2. AWD
3. Carbon Fiber Tub/Body
4. DCT
5. Must be super exclusive! Three year run at 750-1,000/yr. max
6. Advanced technologies throughout
7. Interior oozing with quality and attention to detail...and no glue smell
8. A few exclusive colors that you will not see on any other GM car
9. Curb weight 3,000-3,100 Lbs
10.lets make it a 3 seater with driver in the middle like P1
11.Huge deployable wing like the McLaren, can be kept in or out like the 911 but moves out with speed or braking (coolest feature of the McLaren)
13.capture brake heat and turn to boost power like the 918
14.vertical open doors
15.$ starts at $125K (makes it $35K above Z06-PERFECT!!!)
16.Car companies do not make money with limited productions, sell the heck out of it to the world. I want to see every dude with a little cash driving an American make car around the planet, and put our people to work in our factories (get a friking uniform (Corvette Factory Team) with corvette racing stuff on it and wear it proudly at the factory...This is our history and lineage darn it and proudly show it off!
Corvette can position now to sell a base Corvette sub $50,000. all the way up to the Zora loaded at $150,000. and of course all the other versions in-between. Corvette can sell easy 5,000-10,000 Zoras under $150K and pick up another 40K-50,000 cars a year on the rest of the Corvette platform with global consumption!
Its time for American ingenuity and engineering to kick tail and take numb$rs!
17.make a track/club edition for NCCC
and for the non believers, keep it cool and stop bad mouthing your country's best product, rather be proud of it!!!
Ford is doing well and with the new GT, the GT350+R version and the super smart RS (soon to expand across the board just like the ST over several models) is committed to producing quality cars that race on multiple platforms. I believe corvette needs to become the performance arm across all the remaining GM brands...
...Just my two cents
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SpeedyD (05-10-2016)
05-10-2016, 08:39 AM
#66
Instructor
05-10-2016, 09:17 AM
#67
Agree 100%! Those enormous wings look absolutely stupid on a street driven car. I wonder if the guys who drive these abortions know that some people are actually laughing at them. The look is totally ricer. The really cool cars avoid this stupidity with a deployable device. I could not imagine paying well over 6 figures or multiples of same and having the back end of look like some thing right out of a J. C. Whitney catalogue.
now people can laugh at the ACR all they want but the guy in it is driveng a $100k+ super performance car and those people are driving Sonatas
05-10-2016, 09:53 AM
#68
Banned Scam/Spammer
Ricer is taking the look and sound of a race car and putting it on a car that lacks any real measure of performance. How does this apply to a car that absolutely utilizes every piece of its construction?
now people can laugh at the ACR all they want but the guy in it is driveng a $100k+ super performance car and those people are driving Sonatas
now people can laugh at the ACR all they want but the guy in it is driveng a $100k+ super performance car and those people are driving Sonatas
05-10-2016, 12:17 PM
#69
Le Mans Master
All I know for sure is that waivers are being reviewed by the GTLM involved manufacturers, so that'd likely mean next season. When BMW submitted for the waiver on the modified Z4's, they did so prior to committing to building the car. Once the waiver is approved, Porsche pays their tax, then they build the car. Keep in mind, the description via BMW for the waiver, didn't indicate to Fehan and others that the Z4 was going to be a widebody superGT aero'd car that's for sure...they weren't happy. We definitely see big moves internal in Porsche with the Cayman/Boxter/718 platform, which is mid engine, as is the 918 halo. Again, I think Porsche, for the purists will always attempt to maintain this rear engine platform, but a modular construction that allows the chassis to do both may be possible.
I think the Michelin tire being developed for mid-engine platform cars is very telling. Interestingly though, BMW has no intention of doing anything mid-engine that can be found, but excitement around the M1 has peaked, and I'd not be surprised if they jumped in the game with a remake.
In a pure false economy, it's pretty amazing what we're seeing in the automotive industry. Car excitement is abundant.
I think the Michelin tire being developed for mid-engine platform cars is very telling. Interestingly though, BMW has no intention of doing anything mid-engine that can be found, but excitement around the M1 has peaked, and I'd not be surprised if they jumped in the game with a remake.
In a pure false economy, it's pretty amazing what we're seeing in the automotive industry. Car excitement is abundant.
Last edited by RC000E; 05-10-2016 at 12:18 PM.
05-10-2016, 12:26 PM
#70
Le Mans Master
You might be right about why the F GTs were fastest there. I'm just hoping the Le Mans BoP will be fair to everyone this year. Because if it isn't (like it has been in the past) then theres no point in watching the whole thing.
GM expanding the Corvette brand with a rear mid engine car would be cool IMO. But if they are going to put a six banger in it then they might as well keep it. There are rear mid V12s out there right now...
I don't get the fascination with TT six banger @ rear mid engine car..
GM expanding the Corvette brand with a rear mid engine car would be cool IMO. But if they are going to put a six banger in it then they might as well keep it. There are rear mid V12s out there right now...
I don't get the fascination with TT six banger @ rear mid engine car..
Electric allows torque fill, and electric motors can spin at very high rpm's efficiently, so they are a natural fit for actuating a supercharger. The replacement for displacement is forced induction, while allowing good mpg with electric assist/torque fill.
In the end, the manufacturers are just reacting to govt regulation in order to survive and meet enthusiast/racing demand. That said, the true "small block chevy" started as a 265, 4.3 liter. What can be done with a small 4.3, four cam with variable cam and induction tuning, and an electric supercharger with front hub motors? None of which is really ground breaking, but it would be GM's own formula regardless and it could be a killer.
Last edited by RC000E; 05-10-2016 at 12:27 PM.
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Theo Harris (05-10-2016)
05-10-2016, 12:31 PM
#71
Banned Scam/Spammer
I think the bottom line is really about weight, torque and fuel mileage...the six runs that middle ground that is being set in place by the CAFE standards and fleet mpg regulations. A tuned 6 cylinder can still sound pretty fantastic also..just listen to an early 90's NSX with a taitec exhaust
Electric allows torque fill, and electric motors can spin at very high rpm's efficiently, so they are a natural fit for actuating a supercharger. The replacement for displacement is forced induction, while allowing good mpg with electric assist/torque fill.
In the end, the manufacturers are just reacting to govt regulation in order to survive and meet enthusiast/racing demand. That said, the true "small block chevy" started as a 265, 4.3 liter. What can be done with a small 4.3, four cam with variable cam and induction tuning, and an electric supercharger with front hub motors? None of which is really ground breaking, but it would be GM's own formula regardless and it could be a killer.
Electric allows torque fill, and electric motors can spin at very high rpm's efficiently, so they are a natural fit for actuating a supercharger. The replacement for displacement is forced induction, while allowing good mpg with electric assist/torque fill.
In the end, the manufacturers are just reacting to govt regulation in order to survive and meet enthusiast/racing demand. That said, the true "small block chevy" started as a 265, 4.3 liter. What can be done with a small 4.3, four cam with variable cam and induction tuning, and an electric supercharger with front hub motors? None of which is really ground breaking, but it would be GM's own formula regardless and it could be a killer.
05-10-2016, 01:47 PM
#72
I really hope it's not a V6. Small displacement TT V8 please. Danny Popp special with a LS7 block and 4.8 truck crank!
05-10-2016, 02:24 PM
#73
Burning Brakes
Cannot imagine a price point of any GM over 200K. Very few people will buy it. It is still a Chevy..
With most Vette buyers being in the old man category they will at least for the next 15 years or so till they trade for wheelchairs want a front engine V8 even if that is not where technology says to go..
With most Vette buyers being in the old man category they will at least for the next 15 years or so till they trade for wheelchairs want a front engine V8 even if that is not where technology says to go..
Last edited by Busa Dave; 05-10-2016 at 02:31 PM.
05-10-2016, 04:01 PM
#74
Cannot imagine a price point of any GM over 200K. Very few people will buy it. It is still a Chevy..
With most Vette buyers being in the old man category they will at least for the next 15 years or so till they trade for wheelchairs want a front engine V8 even if that is not where technology says to go..
With most Vette buyers being in the old man category they will at least for the next 15 years or so till they trade for wheelchairs want a front engine V8 even if that is not where technology says to go..
05-10-2016, 04:09 PM
#75
Burning Brakes
I disagree. People want cars that are more complete at ZR1 price points not just high horsepower, and crappy tech/interior. I don't believe the whole idea that people won't pay because it's a "Chevy", if it's a great car with a high end fit and finish it'll sell. Look at C7 and Z06 sales! 200k is probably too high but I think 135-150k would be a really great sweet spot.
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Theo Harris (05-10-2016)
05-10-2016, 06:01 PM
#76
Le Mans Master
Only thing I never loved about dohc is cog disadvantages...if you run a wide angle V you bring it down, but increase the footprint. It's hard to deny the compact juiciness of pushrod. I mean...it's that compact nature that made LSx such a viral engine for so many genres...GM NEEDS to repeat that with something new...I just don't think the LT1 is enough...it's a transition engine.
I mean, let's keep in mind, GM KNEW this was coming. The move in ALMS years ago has had them running a 5.5 liter for some time now. I have felt for years that smaller displacement was inevitable and I feel damn certain a Corvette with always have a V8 available, but the V6 road may be nearing us.
I'm not gonna bs though, and I will be in the VAST minority when I say this but, I would entertain a 4cyl Corvette if done right. I built 4cyl forced induction engines for a long time...extracted HUGE power from them. They are light, you could put it WAY back in the engine bay and have tons of room for intercooling/cooling, Vmount, you name it.
05-10-2016, 06:03 PM
#77
Le Mans Master
I disagree. People want cars that are more complete at ZR1 price points not just high horsepower, and crappy tech/interior. I don't believe the whole idea that people won't pay because it's a "Chevy", if it's a great car with a high end fit and finish it'll sell. Look at C7 and Z06 sales! 200k is probably too high but I think 135-150k would be a really great sweet spot.
Then you have the other side...the white collar old boy who loves American but has been influenced and tempted by German so has that quality expectation.
In the end, the ZR1 came at a bad time and I believe the markets impacted the real data to be gathered about what the ZR1 could and couldn't do in terms of sales.
05-10-2016, 06:07 PM
#78
Melting Slicks
Cannot imagine a price point of any GM over 200K. Very few people will buy it. It is still a Chevy..
With most Vette buyers being in the old man category they will at least for the next 15 years or so till they trade for wheelchairs want a front engine V8 even if that is not where technology says to go..
With most Vette buyers being in the old man category they will at least for the next 15 years or so till they trade for wheelchairs want a front engine V8 even if that is not where technology says to go..
05-10-2016, 06:10 PM
#79
Le Mans Master
Cannot imagine a price point of any GM over 200K. Very few people will buy it. It is still a Chevy..
With most Vette buyers being in the old man category they will at least for the next 15 years or so till they trade for wheelchairs want a front engine V8 even if that is not where technology says to go..
With most Vette buyers being in the old man category they will at least for the next 15 years or so till they trade for wheelchairs want a front engine V8 even if that is not where technology says to go..
I believe now that GM has established it's own racing heritage (as a factory) for a few decades now, the timing is there for a 180k, limited production, mid-engine Corvette. I do think you have to build a parts bin car though, share as much of the core as you can, and set a new performance benchmark for GM. You do that, then in another 10 years you can revisit with something that's maybe 250 or bigger. All theoretical of course, as no one knows what the future of this country holds.
Last edited by RC000E; 05-10-2016 at 06:11 PM.
05-10-2016, 07:40 PM
#80
And FYI, if GM was producing less C7 Z06's (still healthy amount of 3-4K/year) then they would not have any problems selling the car higher than its current price.