GSpeed C7 Z06 Cooling Development
07-12-2016, 09:42 PM
#122
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
We will share our fix once it's validated across a few other cars.
I would say that you can rest assured if you have a factory OEM bled system, that's stock, and never been apart. All bets are off, if it's been apart. As little as 3oz of air in the system will allow a case of cavitation and pump shut down.
The pump was not bad. It has a shut down mode when it senses cavitation. It will turn off for 3 minutes, as indicated in the video on our pump shut down thread. The car does not do this, it's the "smart" pump that is installed.
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GSpeed C7Z Cooling Development
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GSpeed C7Z Cooling Development
2014 NASA Texas TT1 Champion
2015 NASA Texas ST1 Champion
2018 NASA TTU & TT3 National Champions
2019 NASA ST2 National Champion
2019 NASA Texas TT2 Champion
2020 SCCA Majors COTA GT2 pole sitter
2020 SCCA Trans Am Road Atlanta SGT Winner
2022 NASA National Champion ST2
2023 NASA National Champion ST2
2023 NASA National Champion TT2
07-12-2016, 10:10 PM
#123
Tadge spoke very specifically that if the intercooler circuit is not bled properly and 100%, that the system will fail to cool properly. The installation of this LG system by customers better make that very clear, otherwise you're going to see bad customer reviews all due to poorly bled systems.
07-12-2016, 11:15 PM
#124
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
Tadge spoke very specifically that if the intercooler circuit is not bled properly and 100%, that the system will fail to cool properly. The installation of this LG system by customers better make that very clear, otherwise you're going to see bad customer reviews all due to poorly bled systems.
We agree 100%. I think with all the documentation regarding the pump shut down and cavitation issues, it would be really hard to mess that up, as its very obvious the problems that stem from a poorly bled system. I will say that what we have engineered, will be almost impossible to bleed incorrectly, and the results of improper bleeding, will be spelled out in the installation instructions.
Proper bleeding was never the issue, however, the pump shut down, threw us for a loop. Never in a million years, would I have thought that the pump would shut down, and the ECU would rely on the actual increase in air temp (read: Dangerous, and extremely de-rated) before anyone even knew.
This car has been out for 2 years, and were just discovering this small, yet impacting scenario.
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07-13-2016, 12:41 AM
#126
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
Perhaps? But two things we thought, before we spent a dime was:
-Poor water quality will impact any pump, regardless of cost
- it's price point of almost 1000$, turns us off to that, which makes us solve the issue of making the stock unit function correctly as flow is not an issue.
-Poor water quality will impact any pump, regardless of cost
- it's price point of almost 1000$, turns us off to that, which makes us solve the issue of making the stock unit function correctly as flow is not an issue.
07-13-2016, 12:57 AM
#127
Safety Car
I just came back from a track day with my AMG GT-S, running flat out with my buddy in his Viper T/A at Mosport. We ran 7x30 minute sessions in one day, and not even a hint of overheating for either car, and we were among the fastest cars there. The max oil temperature I saw in my GT-S was 107 C (225 F) and coolant temp was not over 100 C (212 F) at anytime, and same for transmission temp, and lap times were consistently in the 1:36.0 with no traffic. It was my first time there with that car and only my second track day with it, and my buddy with the T/A has run 1:32's there, but it was warm and sunny and tires were sliding in the afternoon. There was a C7 Z06 which ran faster than us, but each time I saw him he did not run a full session, as I saw him pulling into the pits early when I caught up to him. No idea why, and he may have run full sessions at other times. It just proves that when you put 4 coolers as on the GT-S with 2 intercoolers on the side, a flat oil cooler in the front section in front of the rad, and a big radiator that you can run a car straight from the showroom floor, go really fats for a long, long time and not overheat, not a single mod required, no pulling of power or any other issues.
It's all about the engineering compromises that get chosen by the manufacturers.
It's all about the engineering compromises that get chosen by the manufacturers.
Shoot. Well, keep at it guys. I wouldn't rule out a ZR1 pump though, but I agree that a cheaper fix would be nice.
07-13-2016, 02:44 AM
#129
Good to see comparison figures from a similar platform so that we can compare cooling architectures and results. The GT-S cooling system seems very well thought out to me. Some of it must be from that taller hood profile but there is of course a lot more to it.e.
What is interesting is MB are using side or 'chin' mounted low temp rads for the chargecoolers. I have seen them mount intercoolers down there (although more popular in audi's see the RS6) but not LTRs.
Also this is a stonking engine. I hear it's basically 2 a45 AMG motors strapped together. The V8 is Seriously under stressed at 500 ish bhp!
07-13-2016, 04:06 AM
#130
Safety Car
I think the MB engjneers might have had a little more budget than the GM guys!
What is interesting is MB are using side or 'chin' mounted low temp rads for the chargecoolers. I have seen them mount intercoolers down there (although more popular in audi's see the RS6) but not LTRs.
Also this is a stonking engine. I hear it's basically 2 a45 AMG motors strapped together. The V8 is Seriously under stressed at 500 ish bhp!
What is interesting is MB are using side or 'chin' mounted low temp rads for the chargecoolers. I have seen them mount intercoolers down there (although more popular in audi's see the RS6) but not LTRs.
Also this is a stonking engine. I hear it's basically 2 a45 AMG motors strapped together. The V8 is Seriously under stressed at 500 ish bhp!
To me the Mitsubishi FQ 440 edition is still the one to beat. 220hp/liter is the limit on pump gas for street cars. MB has been catching up but not quite there yet.
I imagine with the V8 there are packaging constraints. It will never reach 2x 350hp of two I4 engines.
07-13-2016, 07:18 AM
#131
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I think the MB engjneers might have had a little more budget than the GM guys!
What is interesting is MB are using side or 'chin' mounted low temp rads for the chargecoolers. I have seen them mount intercoolers down there (although more popular in audi's see the RS6) but not LTRs.
Also this is a stonking engine. I hear it's basically 2 a45 AMG motors strapped together. The V8 is Seriously under stressed at 500 ish bhp!
What is interesting is MB are using side or 'chin' mounted low temp rads for the chargecoolers. I have seen them mount intercoolers down there (although more popular in audi's see the RS6) but not LTRs.
Also this is a stonking engine. I hear it's basically 2 a45 AMG motors strapped together. The V8 is Seriously under stressed at 500 ish bhp!
It costs more than twice Z06 money for the 577hp model. Agreed a lot can be done for that much.
To me the Mitsubishi FQ 440 edition is still the one to beat. 220hp/liter is the limit on pump gas for street cars. MB has been catching up but not quite there yet.
I imagine with the V8 there are packaging constraints. It will never reach 2x 350hp of two I4 engines.
To me the Mitsubishi FQ 440 edition is still the one to beat. 220hp/liter is the limit on pump gas for street cars. MB has been catching up but not quite there yet.
I imagine with the V8 there are packaging constraints. It will never reach 2x 350hp of two I4 engines.
....and their aerodynamics as well.
The TT 8 cylinders ~4L are quite a good powerplant manufacturers are embracing. Seeing that something similar will likely show up in the Zora at some point I hope GM pays attention to cooling like the cars you mentioned above and the Ferrari as well.
07-13-2016, 10:42 AM
#132
It costs more than twice Z06 money for the 577hp model. Agreed a lot can be done for that much.
To me the Mitsubishi FQ 440 edition is still the one to beat. 220hp/liter is the limit on pump gas for street cars. MB has been catching up but not quite there yet.
I imagine with the V8 there are packaging constraints. It will never reach 2x 350hp of two I4 engines.
To me the Mitsubishi FQ 440 edition is still the one to beat. 220hp/liter is the limit on pump gas for street cars. MB has been catching up but not quite there yet.
I imagine with the V8 there are packaging constraints. It will never reach 2x 350hp of two I4 engines.
. Combustion stability is much the result of chamber design, dynamic compression, mixture homogeny, etc. Technology can still push pump gas further.Nemesis...you have to wonder when GM decides to bring back the 265ci 4.3 V8 just for history sake. Make it a short stroke, long rod, big bore on boost with a pentroof chamber, 4 cams with variable valve lift and cam timing, and a multistage/compound turbo...let's do this...lol.
Last edited by OmenSpeedWorks; 07-13-2016 at 10:46 AM.
07-13-2016, 07:45 PM
#133
I just came back from a track day with my AMG GT-S, running flat out with my buddy in his Viper T/A at Mosport. We ran 7x30 minute sessions in one day, and not even a hint of overheating for either car, and we were among the fastest cars there. The max oil temperature I saw in my GT-S was 107 C (225 F) and coolant temp was not over 100 C (212 F) at anytime, and same for transmission temp, and lap times were consistently in the 1:36.0 with no traffic. It was my first time there with that car and only my second track day with it, and my buddy with the T/A has run 1:32's there, but it was warm and sunny and tires were sliding in the afternoon. There was a C7 Z06 which ran faster than us, but each time I saw him he did not run a full session, as I saw him pulling into the pits early when I caught up to him. No idea why, and he may have run full sessions at other times. It just proves that when you put 4 coolers as on the GT-S with 2 intercoolers on the side, a flat oil cooler in the front section in front of the rad, and a big radiator that you can run a car straight from the showroom floor, go really fats for a long, long time and not overheat, not a single mod required, no pulling of power or any other issues.
It's all about the engineering compromises that get chosen by the manufacturers.
It's all about the engineering compromises that get chosen by the manufacturers.
Do I think all GT-S have this level of problem? Nope. I also don't go over to the AMG board to trash their car and talk about how much better my C7Z is.
Now back to the purpose of this thread which is the great work that G Speed is doing.
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07-13-2016, 09:12 PM
#134
Former Vendor
We acknowledge the fine work Gspeed is doing here and that is why we chose them to demo our next development. Stay tuned to Gspeed for performance results. td
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07-13-2016, 11:49 PM
#135
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I made 630whp with a 2 liter on pump gas...just sayin.... Combustion stability is much the result of chamber design, dynamic compression, mixture homogeny, etc. Technology can still push pump gas further.
Nemesis...you have to wonder when GM decides to bring back the 265ci 4.3 V8 just for history sake. Make it a short stroke, long rod, big bore on boost with a pentroof chamber, 4 cams with variable valve lift and cam timing, and a multistage/compound turbo...let's do this...lol.
. Combustion stability is much the result of chamber design, dynamic compression, mixture homogeny, etc. Technology can still push pump gas further.Nemesis...you have to wonder when GM decides to bring back the 265ci 4.3 V8 just for history sake. Make it a short stroke, long rod, big bore on boost with a pentroof chamber, 4 cams with variable valve lift and cam timing, and a multistage/compound turbo...let's do this...lol.
07-14-2016, 12:10 AM
#136
Well...many people think of the chamber as in, the head. Most ignore the fact, in the words of Larry Windmer, that the chamber also has a bottom. What I see ignored a lot is the bottom of the chamber. The pentroof is pretty efficient, rolls the mixture to the plug, has the best propogation characteristics, but the pistons can also influence a lot. Larry developed the rollerwave, which further influenced the mixture to push toward the exhaust valve side of the pentroof. It led to even more combustion stability.
In mass production there is definitely a lot to be desired, but I feel like the big 3 have left a lot on the table versus the Japanese.
In mass production there is definitely a lot to be desired, but I feel like the big 3 have left a lot on the table versus the Japanese.
07-14-2016, 12:21 AM
#137
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
Larry is good people, his shop is about 25 minutes from ours. Always a good time visiting with him.
07-14-2016, 12:43 AM
#138
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Dec 2005
Location: Port Arthur, Texas 77642
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Well...many people think of the chamber as in, the head. Most ignore the fact, in the words of Larry Windmer, that the chamber also has a bottom. What I see ignored a lot is the bottom of the chamber. The pentroof is pretty efficient, rolls the mixture to the plug, has the best propogation characteristics, but the pistons can also influence a lot. Larry developed the rollerwave, which further influenced the mixture to push toward the exhaust valve side of the pentroof. It led to even more combustion stability.
In mass production there is definitely a lot to be desired, but I feel like the big 3 have left a lot on the table versus the Japanese.
In mass production there is definitely a lot to be desired, but I feel like the big 3 have left a lot on the table versus the Japanese.
07-14-2016, 01:04 PM
#139
Melting Slicks
The above will not suit those individuals who tend to treat the car as if it's a true 'race car', but I really do think that is not what most owners who track the car expect from it.
Bish
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07-14-2016, 01:22 PM
#140
Melting Slicks
Good news this Tom. I have huge respect for what G Speed are doing, but I really think that most owners might be like me: I want a relatively 'simple' solution (most probably a secondary engine oil cooler) that can keep the engine oil and water temps under control for the typical HPDE run session of 25 minutes in high ambient temps, up to 100dF. I personally do not want to spend thousands and thousands of $s on a massive solution requiring major alterations to the car.
The above will not suit those individuals who tend to treat the car as if it's a true 'race car', but I really do think that is not what most owners who track the car expect from it.
Bish
The above will not suit those individuals who tend to treat the car as if it's a true 'race car', but I really do think that is not what most owners who track the car expect from it.
Bish
100% I'm not a racer. I just want to take my Z06 to a track day any time of the year and be able to run full sessions without limping back to the pits. I'm not setting lap records or competing. While this solution may be extremely effective, I'm concerned the price and modification involvement will be out of my league.
