Track alignments and rear caster
05-21-2017, 11:04 PM
#281
Instructor
I have a 2017 Z06 w/ Z07 -- I typically track once or twice a year and run in the intermediate group.
I don't feel like I track enough to be switching my alignment back and forth between street and track. Whats a good setup compromise for track and street?
Thanks
I don't feel like I track enough to be switching my alignment back and forth between street and track. Whats a good setup compromise for track and street?
Thanks
05-22-2017, 06:37 AM
#282
Former Vendor
I have posted several times in this forum.
I just couldn't get the car to handle.
In desperation, I sold my 2014 C7 Z51, and am now campaigning a 2008 Z06.
It is obvious from all the posts in this thread, that alignment is super critical for the C7.
There just seems to be so much of a variation in peoples' results, with many different
settings. My 2014 just wouldn't handle, but a friend has a 2015 Z51 (Auto), and it handles like a charm.
I have another question... is it possible that the 2014 is somewhat different from the 2015 and later ?
Any thoughts ???
I just couldn't get the car to handle.
In desperation, I sold my 2014 C7 Z51, and am now campaigning a 2008 Z06.
It is obvious from all the posts in this thread, that alignment is super critical for the C7.
There just seems to be so much of a variation in peoples' results, with many different
settings. My 2014 just wouldn't handle, but a friend has a 2015 Z51 (Auto), and it handles like a charm.
I have another question... is it possible that the 2014 is somewhat different from the 2015 and later ?
Any thoughts ???
05-22-2017, 11:42 AM
#283
Melting Slicks
DSCSport,
thanks for the input.
Further ammunition.... my friend who has the 2015 Z51 Magride, etc., etc. automatic coupe,
just competed yesterday in the C.C.C.C. (Canadian Council of corvette Clubs) Western Region first long weekend event of the year. This was held at the Vancouver Island Motorsport Circuit (new Site). Approximately 60 entrants, each getting 3 runs.
Using 4th gear in a couple of places; 3rd in most, a little 2nd.
The cars are classed based upon year, suspension, motor, and tires.
He is running Bridgestone Potenza RE71 tires (treadwear 200... but we know that is so wrong by Bridgestone). Others are on R1 tires, etc. This is quite a serious bunch of Corvette Autocrossers. Lap times were in the 85 to 95 seconds range .
His car is classed in "Stock 5" (don't worry about the classes... suffice it to say he is 3 classes down from the "top" class).
He won his class AND got FTD (Fast Time of Day) over everyone else.
He had an 83.xxx... next nearest time was an 84.xxx.
I said it before... he obviously has his car tuned in just right, alignment-wise.
And I just couldn't get mine set up, no matter which alignment shop I used (GM or whatever).
thanks for the input.
Further ammunition.... my friend who has the 2015 Z51 Magride, etc., etc. automatic coupe,
just competed yesterday in the C.C.C.C. (Canadian Council of corvette Clubs) Western Region first long weekend event of the year. This was held at the Vancouver Island Motorsport Circuit (new Site). Approximately 60 entrants, each getting 3 runs.
Using 4th gear in a couple of places; 3rd in most, a little 2nd.
The cars are classed based upon year, suspension, motor, and tires.
He is running Bridgestone Potenza RE71 tires (treadwear 200... but we know that is so wrong by Bridgestone). Others are on R1 tires, etc. This is quite a serious bunch of Corvette Autocrossers. Lap times were in the 85 to 95 seconds range .
His car is classed in "Stock 5" (don't worry about the classes... suffice it to say he is 3 classes down from the "top" class).
He won his class AND got FTD (Fast Time of Day) over everyone else.
He had an 83.xxx... next nearest time was an 84.xxx.
I said it before... he obviously has his car tuned in just right, alignment-wise.
And I just couldn't get mine set up, no matter which alignment shop I used (GM or whatever).
Last edited by NTMD8R; 05-22-2017 at 12:07 PM.
05-22-2017, 02:59 PM
#284
Former Vendor
DSCSport,
thanks for the input.
Further ammunition.... my friend who has the 2015 Z51 Magride, etc., etc. automatic coupe,
just competed yesterday in the C.C.C.C. (Canadian Council of corvette Clubs) Western Region first long weekend event of the year. This was held at the Vancouver Island Motorsport Circuit (new Site). Approximately 60 entrants, each getting 3 runs.
Using 4th gear in a couple of places; 3rd in most, a little 2nd.
The cars are classed based upon year, suspension, motor, and tires.
He is running Bridgestone Potenza RE71 tires (treadwear 200... but we know that is so wrong by Bridgestone). Others are on R1 tires, etc. This is quite a serious bunch of Corvette Autocrossers. Lap times were in the 85 to 95 seconds range .
His car is classed in "Stock 5" (don't worry about the classes... suffice it to say he is 3 classes down from the "top" class).
He won his class AND got FTD (Fast Time of Day) over everyone else.
He had an 83.xxx... next nearest time was an 84.xxx.
I said it before... he obviously has his car tuned in just right, alignment-wise.
And I just couldn't get mine set up, no matter which alignment shop I used (GM or whatever).
thanks for the input.
Further ammunition.... my friend who has the 2015 Z51 Magride, etc., etc. automatic coupe,
just competed yesterday in the C.C.C.C. (Canadian Council of corvette Clubs) Western Region first long weekend event of the year. This was held at the Vancouver Island Motorsport Circuit (new Site). Approximately 60 entrants, each getting 3 runs.
Using 4th gear in a couple of places; 3rd in most, a little 2nd.
The cars are classed based upon year, suspension, motor, and tires.
He is running Bridgestone Potenza RE71 tires (treadwear 200... but we know that is so wrong by Bridgestone). Others are on R1 tires, etc. This is quite a serious bunch of Corvette Autocrossers. Lap times were in the 85 to 95 seconds range .
His car is classed in "Stock 5" (don't worry about the classes... suffice it to say he is 3 classes down from the "top" class).
He won his class AND got FTD (Fast Time of Day) over everyone else.
He had an 83.xxx... next nearest time was an 84.xxx.
I said it before... he obviously has his car tuned in just right, alignment-wise.
And I just couldn't get mine set up, no matter which alignment shop I used (GM or whatever).
if you need any help finding a shop shout out Im sure someone will come to the rescue
05-24-2017, 12:39 PM
#285
Mike Levitas is a Daytona 24 hour winner and owns TPC Racing. Mike/TPC also preps the Porsche 997.2 911T I race.
Mike is also a big time Corvette guy and owns a C7 Z06. Mike has mad skills on setting up the suspension on a car. He has an amazing God given talent on suspension setup.
He has done EXTENSIVE suspension testing with his C7Z. Mike, his friend Randy Pobst and I agree the setup from the factory is TERRIBLE, DANGEROUS and SCARY when driven 10/10s. Mike's been close friends with Randy for decades. The car exhibits snap oversteer without any warning. Happened to me resulting in a bad situation and to Mike as well. Mike is a better driver than I and was able to catch his but told me is scared the hell out of him. The car is so bad even with the GM suggested track alignment WHEN DRIVEN HARD he was going to sell his after only 300 miles.
Instead, he invested many hours working on the suspension setup. Just last week he informed me he got it to where it's his favorite car to drive of the may cars he owns. He shared his setup with me and it is remarkable. I was scared to drive the car at 10/10 prior to using his setup. What he provided TOTALLY transformed my car. I can't believe it's the same vehicle. So easy to drive with the setup he told me to go with it's unreal. It's really hard for me to put into words the transformation. It truly is game changing.
The biggest problem he found was in the rear caster. Other changes were also warranted but the rear caster is the biggest factor in making the car dangerous/undriveable at speed.
Here's the hot setup which Mike informed me gave him and 7 others with C7Zs 1-2 seconds per lap WITHOUT the car wanting to snap oversteer:
1. Pull 1 washer from behind the attachment point of both upper control arms, front and rear. Total of 16 washers as there are 16 bolts.
2. FRONT: -2.0 camber and -0.5mm toe each side for total toe out of -1.0mm. Most alignment racks measure in degrees. The -0.5mm equals right at -0.03 to -0.04 degrees depending on tire diameter. Mine is set at -0.03 degrees each corner.
3. REAR: -1.7 camber and -0.5mm toe each side for total toe out of -1.0mm.
4. The rear uprights MUST be laid back 0.8 - 1.0 degree of positive caster. The 0.8 works best on just about every car they tested. DO NOT go less than 0.8. Laid back/positive caster means the top of the shock is laid back closer towards the rear of the car relative to the bottom of the shock.
Hope this helps.
Rick
Mike is also a big time Corvette guy and owns a C7 Z06. Mike has mad skills on setting up the suspension on a car. He has an amazing God given talent on suspension setup.
He has done EXTENSIVE suspension testing with his C7Z. Mike, his friend Randy Pobst and I agree the setup from the factory is TERRIBLE, DANGEROUS and SCARY when driven 10/10s. Mike's been close friends with Randy for decades. The car exhibits snap oversteer without any warning. Happened to me resulting in a bad situation and to Mike as well. Mike is a better driver than I and was able to catch his but told me is scared the hell out of him. The car is so bad even with the GM suggested track alignment WHEN DRIVEN HARD he was going to sell his after only 300 miles.
Instead, he invested many hours working on the suspension setup. Just last week he informed me he got it to where it's his favorite car to drive of the may cars he owns. He shared his setup with me and it is remarkable. I was scared to drive the car at 10/10 prior to using his setup. What he provided TOTALLY transformed my car. I can't believe it's the same vehicle. So easy to drive with the setup he told me to go with it's unreal. It's really hard for me to put into words the transformation. It truly is game changing.
The biggest problem he found was in the rear caster. Other changes were also warranted but the rear caster is the biggest factor in making the car dangerous/undriveable at speed.
Here's the hot setup which Mike informed me gave him and 7 others with C7Zs 1-2 seconds per lap WITHOUT the car wanting to snap oversteer:
1. Pull 1 washer from behind the attachment point of both upper control arms, front and rear. Total of 16 washers as there are 16 bolts.
2. FRONT: -2.0 camber and -0.5mm toe each side for total toe out of -1.0mm. Most alignment racks measure in degrees. The -0.5mm equals right at -0.03 to -0.04 degrees depending on tire diameter. Mine is set at -0.03 degrees each corner.
3. REAR: -1.7 camber and -0.5mm toe each side for total toe out of -1.0mm.
4. The rear uprights MUST be laid back 0.8 - 1.0 degree of positive caster. The 0.8 works best on just about every car they tested. DO NOT go less than 0.8. Laid back/positive caster means the top of the shock is laid back closer towards the rear of the car relative to the bottom of the shock.
Hope this helps.
Rick
05-24-2017, 12:52 PM
#286
Melting Slicks
BTW - had Mike do the alignment on my C7.R A8 and also installed his DSC controller - just returned from a 3000-mile round trip @ 80 mph for most of the trip and averaged a little over 21 mpg; also did laps on Iowa Speedway and roadcourse
05-24-2017, 10:03 PM
#287
Drifting
Thread Starter
Member Since: Feb 2015
Location: Syracuse-Central Square New York Winer of the all Corvette race WGI 8/23!
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Corner entry and exits were fantastic as the rear was planted like never before only a slight push. Not sure if any one has done proper tire temps (not with a laser) but that exactly what we accomplished. Our data showed the rear was right on the money at 2.4 camber, again for WG. The front still needs at least a degree or more of camber. I am so fortunate to have a senior instructor and GT1 driver to help me out. We concluded the front should be in the 3.0 to 3.4 degree camber range we were at 2.4 this week and still saw outer tire temps off the charts in the 130 to 140 range. This will be put in the car next round in July. With our ABS friend were hoping the high numbers don't effect braking. We had the front caster at 8.0 and toe out at .05 as was the rear, thanks Mike it works! 1.0 positive rear caster seems to work best for us and possibly cause the car is lowered about 3\4 of an inch all corners. No eccentrics moving this time either with our complete AMT suspension kit and Granatelli toe bars. Tire wear is as you might expect also great I will guess 4 more TD left.
Pb from our AIM data and so proud of a 2.04.6 full 3.4 mile course on 100 octane race fuel and low on gas. Many 2.06 to 2.09's and the best part the PB was soooo smooth and a bit surprised as I study it, thanks for the pointers Rick. As we all know you can put down some great lap times driving out of control sometimes. Not this time this car was on friggin rails
I hope this information helps others achieve what these cars are capable of. If I'm forgetting a spec let me know its pass my bed time!
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Poor-sha (05-25-2017)
05-24-2017, 10:20 PM
#288
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
Location: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
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Guys, Just back from Watkins Glen with our 15 Z06 M7 all stock shocks etc. on Cup2s with 7 tracks days. I could not be happier as this was by far the very best set up in our car for THAT track.
Corner entry and exits were fantastic as the rear was planted like never before only a slight push. Not sure if any one has done proper tire temps (not with a laser) but that exactly what we accomplished. Our data showed the rear was right on the money at 2.4 camber, again for WG. The front still needs at least a degree or more of camber. I am so fortunate to have a senior instructor and GT1 driver to help me out. We concluded the front should be in the 3.0 to 3.4 degree camber range we were at 2.4 this week and still saw outer tire temps off the charts in the 130 to 140 range. This will be put in the car next round in July. With our ABS friend were hoping the high numbers don't effect braking. We had the front caster at 8.0 and toe out at .05 as was the rear, thanks Mike it works! 1.0 positive rear caster seems to work best for us and possibly cause the car is lowered about 3\4 of an inch all corners. No eccentrics moving this time either with our complete AMT suspension kit and Granatelli toe bars. Tire wear is as you might expect also great I will guess 4 more TD left.
Pb from our AIM data and so proud of a 2.04.6 full 3.4 mile course on 100 octane race fuel and low on gas. Many 2.06 to 2.09's and the best part the PB was soooo smooth and a bit surprised as I study it, thanks for the pointers Rick. As we all know you can put down some great lap times driving out of control sometimes. Not this time this car was on friggin rails
I hope this information helps others achieve what these cars are capable of. If I'm forgetting a spec let me know its pass my bed time!
Corner entry and exits were fantastic as the rear was planted like never before only a slight push. Not sure if any one has done proper tire temps (not with a laser) but that exactly what we accomplished. Our data showed the rear was right on the money at 2.4 camber, again for WG. The front still needs at least a degree or more of camber. I am so fortunate to have a senior instructor and GT1 driver to help me out. We concluded the front should be in the 3.0 to 3.4 degree camber range we were at 2.4 this week and still saw outer tire temps off the charts in the 130 to 140 range. This will be put in the car next round in July. With our ABS friend were hoping the high numbers don't effect braking. We had the front caster at 8.0 and toe out at .05 as was the rear, thanks Mike it works! 1.0 positive rear caster seems to work best for us and possibly cause the car is lowered about 3\4 of an inch all corners. No eccentrics moving this time either with our complete AMT suspension kit and Granatelli toe bars. Tire wear is as you might expect also great I will guess 4 more TD left.
Pb from our AIM data and so proud of a 2.04.6 full 3.4 mile course on 100 octane race fuel and low on gas. Many 2.06 to 2.09's and the best part the PB was soooo smooth and a bit surprised as I study it, thanks for the pointers Rick. As we all know you can put down some great lap times driving out of control sometimes. Not this time this car was on friggin rails
I hope this information helps others achieve what these cars are capable of. If I'm forgetting a spec let me know its pass my bed time!
I will be there in two weeks. My current alignment is just short of-2 in front and -1.7 in the rear with +.7 deg of caster. I will taking one shim out of the front which should put me close to -2.2 to -2.3. Have switched to Pirelli Slicks although they are supposed to be run at -2.5 to -3 I don't want to go that high as that will make it necessary to change the alignment back and forth for track and street. I am at the point where I just want to set it and forget it.
Bill
05-24-2017, 10:37 PM
#289
Drifting
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Member Since: Feb 2015
Location: Syracuse-Central Square New York Winer of the all Corvette race WGI 8/23!
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2:04.6 is an excellent time. Congratulations. What tires and wheels are you running?
I will be there in two weeks. My current alignment is just short of-2 in front and -1.7 in the rear with +.7 deg of caster. I will taking one shim out of the front which should put me close to -2.2 to -2.3. Have switched to Pirelli Slicks although they are supposed to be run at -2.5 to -3 I don't want to go that high as that will make it necessary to change the alignment back and forth for track and street. I am at the point where I just want to set it and forget it.
Bill
I will be there in two weeks. My current alignment is just short of-2 in front and -1.7 in the rear with +.7 deg of caster. I will taking one shim out of the front which should put me close to -2.2 to -2.3. Have switched to Pirelli Slicks although they are supposed to be run at -2.5 to -3 I don't want to go that high as that will make it necessary to change the alignment back and forth for track and street. I am at the point where I just want to set it and forget it.
Bill
BTW, we did and alignment on an older VOLVO a few weeks ago. The factory spec front and rear camber was over -2.0 !
Last edited by Mad Dog 24; 05-24-2017 at 10:40 PM.
05-25-2017, 06:56 AM
#291
Slick
Bill Dearborn:
If you want an optimal work of slick
You make front left 3.0 and right 2.50 toe -10
Rear Left 2.0 and Right 1.50 Toe 25
Air hot maximum 2.0
Soo you'll see your Z is very very fast
In addition, your slick tires live longer
Cölestin
If you want an optimal work of slick
You make front left 3.0 and right 2.50 toe -10
Rear Left 2.0 and Right 1.50 Toe 25
Air hot maximum 2.0
Soo you'll see your Z is very very fast
In addition, your slick tires live longer
Cölestin
05-25-2017, 08:14 AM
#292
2:04.6 is an excellent time. Congratulations. What tires and wheels are you running?
I will be there in two weeks. My current alignment is just short of-2 in front and -1.7 in the rear with +.7 deg of caster. I will taking one shim out of the front which should put me close to -2.2 to -2.3. Have switched to Pirelli Slicks although they are supposed to be run at -2.5 to -3 I don't want to go that high as that will make it necessary to change the alignment back and forth for track and street. I am at the point where I just want to set it and forget it.
Bill
I will be there in two weeks. My current alignment is just short of-2 in front and -1.7 in the rear with +.7 deg of caster. I will taking one shim out of the front which should put me close to -2.2 to -2.3. Have switched to Pirelli Slicks although they are supposed to be run at -2.5 to -3 I don't want to go that high as that will make it necessary to change the alignment back and forth for track and street. I am at the point where I just want to set it and forget it.
Bill
05-25-2017, 08:41 AM
#293
Drifting
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Yup forgot the pressures in my report. Best was cold front 26 and rear 24. At track temps it was 33.5 to 34 front and 31 rear. Because the rear in our mind is dead on @ 31 hot. We think once the front camber is corrected the tire pressure in the front will drop a pound or two and closer to the rears 31.
Last edited by Mad Dog 24; 05-25-2017 at 08:44 AM.
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BEZ06 (05-25-2017)
05-25-2017, 08:43 AM
#294
Drifting
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All great info. I guess i would consider myself an intermediate level driver. I love the Drive your own events at Pocono on the big track. I will be doing a few road courses and The Glen for the first time in July. I was thinking of doing the DSC Recomendation for Street/occasional track of -1.2 camber front and rear +0.5 toe in front +6.5 - 7.0 caster and -0.5 toe in rear with +0.7 caster. I am open for any comments or recomendations but i want a setting that will be ok for my level and still good for street wear.
05-25-2017, 09:30 AM
#295
I'm going to bump my front camber up to -2.7 in the front for my event at Summit Point next week. I've already pulled the washers and just need to set the toe.
The last time I ran that much camber I wore out the insides of the Pirelli slicks but in retrospect it may have been because my shock was unplugged and running full soft on the LF. Great info and testing Mad Dog.
The last time I ran that much camber I wore out the insides of the Pirelli slicks but in retrospect it may have been because my shock was unplugged and running full soft on the LF. Great info and testing Mad Dog.
05-30-2017, 06:09 PM
#296
Burning Brakes
All great info. I guess i would consider myself an intermediate level driver. I love the Drive your own events at Pocono on the big track. I will be doing a few road courses and The Glen for the first time in July. I was thinking of doing the DSC Recomendation for Street/occasional track of -1.2 camber front and rear +0.5 toe in front +6.5 - 7.0 caster and -0.5 toe in rear with +0.7 caster. I am open for any comments or recomendations but i want a setting that will be ok for my level and still good for street wear.
Will be at the Glen with Phoenix CMR in a few weeks. First time on the new surface with my first Corvette and the new alignment. Should be interesting.
Last edited by blueray16; 05-30-2017 at 06:13 PM.
05-31-2017, 10:31 AM
#297
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Just spent almost 3 hours reading all I could find here on the alignment. I consider myself a solid intermediate driver and have decided, I too will be going with the DSC Street/occasional track specs the same as you.
Will be at the Glen with Phoenix CMR in a few weeks. First time on the new surface with my first Corvette and the new alignment. Should be interesting.
Will be at the Glen with Phoenix CMR in a few weeks. First time on the new surface with my first Corvette and the new alignment. Should be interesting.
Bill
05-31-2017, 10:58 AM
#298
Melting Slicks
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2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
C3 of Year Winner (track prepared) 2019
Anyone know of a reputable shop between Atlanta and Bowling Green with actual experience (and proper tools) aligning rear caster on one of these cars? I would love to make a few tweaks to mine on Friday, before I race it on Sat/Sun at NCM.
Last edited by fleming23; 05-31-2017 at 10:59 AM.
05-31-2017, 12:40 PM
#299
Drifting
Not sure if he has the C7 stuff yet. But he has a lot of alignment and corner balance experience on Vettes.
05-31-2017, 03:38 PM
#300
Melting Slicks
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I appreciate it but not the level of experience I'm looking for. There are a number of shops down here in the Metro Atlanta area who have experience with Corvettes, not many have done rear caster or own the tools. I have the aluminum bracket and an angle gauge but don't feel like trying to explain it to someone and was hoping there was a decent shop in Chattanooga, Nashville, or Bowling Green.