Why do C7 Z06's pull to the right violently when breaking loose...WTF
12-05-2016, 04:42 PM
#101
Melting Slicks
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2018 C6 of Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '10, '17
While I haven't personally experienced this phenomenon, it is a little scary to think about and hard to argue with the facts from experienced drivers. Does anyone think that the Ride tech Magnetuner by DSC Sport addresses this issue?
12-05-2016, 06:49 PM
#102
Dig
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Someone needs to film this happening in a C7. I've owned many manual and auto cars that from a stop or rolling have kicked the rear out to the right and also tracked straight while hazing or burning up the tires. Usually on the shift (auto or stick).
12-05-2016, 07:27 PM
#103
Dig
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Going against my own post ^^^ Rikhek's video (yes I did review more than a few times) was not IMO his fault. Whomever watched the video before it was deleted... Hopefully you saved it and review over again. Something was and happened wrong for whatever reason and it was NOT the driver.
12-05-2016, 07:45 PM
#104
Safety Car
At some level we may need a driver mod. There is a traction circle. Exceed it with brakes, steering or accelerator and things will happen and sometimes quickly. I think Probst had a problem with a car that was far out of alignment. When they got him a car with a proper alignment he was happy and had no snap oversteer.
Another thing I can imagine being done that I would never do is to floor it while in D unless on a track in Race Mode where the A8 was keeping the revs up. Once the car drops down 2 or 3 gears and applies 100% throttle I would expect all sorts of bad things could happen. If I ever decide I want to go 100% throttle while moving I go to M and downshift manually a gear or 3 until I am in the mid 2000 rpms minimum. Than when I go 100% I know what to expect and it happens linearly.
12-05-2016, 08:21 PM
#105
Until proven otherwise I will go with driver error when people run their cars off the road when accelerating. They are spinning both rear tires which totally eliminates lateral traction on those tires. That means what ever a rear tire encounters as it moves forward while spinning can change the grip that tire has or apply a force thus causing a change in direction of the slide. Some tire spin increases traction but once you spin the tires too fast you have lost anything you gained.
Yes, the C7 Z06 has a lot of off throttle torque and it should be used judiciously. The throttle isn't an on off switch.
Bill
Yes, the C7 Z06 has a lot of off throttle torque and it should be used judiciously. The throttle isn't an on off switch.
Bill
Bill you bring up a good often forgotten concept about spinning tires loosing lateral traction. I believe in many cases people are unaware that the rear tires are spinning because the Z06 can do it so easy. I got the opportunity to make the first "test" run on a new short drag strip, a u-turn at the end allowing return in lane two. What shocked me was the two black strips down the entire length. I had given a good amount of gas but really thought I was taking it easy, no idea the back tires were "burning out" spinning with limited lateral traction. I believe the reason I stayed straight was not my superior driving but the flatness of the track. If this track had a crown for water drainage, the slope would have provided the vector force to the right and the car would slide to right. Most roads have a crown and slope to the right. They are often not clean enough to leave the faint black strips I was able to observe on the new track. YouTube videos are full of Z06 crashes with spinning tires from too much gas ,the motion to the right is simply physics. If you give the car just enough gas to break the tires away it will move to the right if the road is sloped that way. You stop that motion by modulating the gas and allowing the tires to hook back up which then increases lateral friction. Given how easy and smooth the Z06 is to breakaway the back tires , I think a lot of people don't realize the back tires are spinning until it's too late. Other cars that I have driven aremuch more obvious that the back tires were spinning with wheel hop in noise that it was more obvious that you were burning out.
12-05-2016, 08:59 PM
#106
Burning Brakes
Negative. C6 z06 and zr1 spin just as easy yet don't violently slide out like the c7. Doesn't matter what lane, temp, tire, gear.
Drove vipers and gt500 that didn't do it either.
Drove vipers and gt500 that didn't do it either.
Last edited by Dfwz06; 12-05-2016 at 08:59 PM.
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12-05-2016, 09:58 PM
#107
Racer
Has anyone tracked the issue by year, IE 2017 don't really do it where 2015 are more likely.
The reason I bring up the question is to see if it's something GM might of worked on and not broadcast.
The reason I bring up the question is to see if it's something GM might of worked on and not broadcast.
12-05-2016, 11:28 PM
#108
Everyone who wants to chime in to "school us" about tires, road crowns, the gas pedal is not a light switch, or about our lack of driving and/or throttle control skills, first go do a burnout like this (see attached video) in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear, then please come back and tell us all about it.
PS:
I can easily burn 1st, 2nd and 3rd in my C6 ZR1 and the car goes dead strait. When I pull 2nd in the CZ Z06, the car wants to "TURN" sideways, and this would be the topic of discussion!
PS:
I can easily burn 1st, 2nd and 3rd in my C6 ZR1 and the car goes dead strait. When I pull 2nd in the CZ Z06, the car wants to "TURN" sideways, and this would be the topic of discussion!
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12-06-2016, 06:38 AM
#109
Melting Slicks
Did something happen in that burnout? Seemed pretty typical.
Every time I read this thread, my mind thinks of the right hand rule for torque:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/tord.html
Every time I read this thread, my mind thinks of the right hand rule for torque:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/tord.html
Last edited by spearfish25; 12-06-2016 at 06:41 AM.
12-06-2016, 08:42 AM
#110
Plus 1 for me. 24 years of fast cars on the street including many fords (700rwhp GT500 was last car) and even a C6 with 660RWHP and this is the most unpredictable car when on it hard. Always snaps right. I didn't rrealize how timid I have gotten driving it until I went for a ride in my friend's new Hellcat and he blazed the tiress and I realized that I was almost terrified and bracing for a snap right (which never came). I think it might be a perfect storm of runflat, tire profile, e-diff, factory alignment (mine had one rear with positive caster and one with a degree of negative) engine throttle that doesn't feel well correlated to the position of the actual gas pedal (seems like there is a delay from throttle input to actual engine throttle movement both adding and reducing throttle). Alignment helped and now im debating a tune and tires and rear 19"wheels to try to mitigate. Wish I could address the e-diff.
12-06-2016, 08:48 AM
#111
Leeds.io
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St. Jude Donor '14-'15-'16
NCM Sinkhole Donor
Let's not argue if this is a thing or not. It's definitely a thing. Let's try to figure out what it is. Yes bad drivers can crash cars. That's not the issue here being discussed. Several of us have had the C5 and C6 platform and could spin the tires dead straight well into triple digits. We didn't suddenly lose our driving abilities while these roads magically got more of a crown. Hell the C6Z had a much better throttle response so if power was the issue, and who didn't mod their C6Z, the C6 would have had this problem even more so.
Diff theory is interesting but above my pay grade. I would LOVE to know what the issue is because for me the fun of a car is driving it on and just slightly pass its limits. I've done that with every car I've owned other than his car due to this problem. My faster C6Z with its tuned out torque management and faster quarter times never had this problem and was way more fun to drive because of it. Shame the C7Z is better in every single way other than fun factor.
Diff theory is interesting but above my pay grade. I would LOVE to know what the issue is because for me the fun of a car is driving it on and just slightly pass its limits. I've done that with every car I've owned other than his car due to this problem. My faster C6Z with its tuned out torque management and faster quarter times never had this problem and was way more fun to drive because of it. Shame the C7Z is better in every single way other than fun factor.
Last edited by phantasms; 12-06-2016 at 08:49 AM.
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12-06-2016, 10:02 AM
#112
Plus 1 for me. 24 years of fast cars on the street including many fords (700rwhp GT500 was last car) and even a C6 with 660RWHP and this is the most unpredictable car when on it hard. Always snaps right. I didn't rrealize how timid I have gotten driving it until I went for a ride in my friend's new Hellcat and he blazed the tiress and I realized that I was almost terrified and bracing for a snap right (which never came). I think it might be a perfect storm of runflat, tire profile, e-diff, factory alignment (mine had one rear with positive caster and one with a degree of negative) engine throttle that doesn't feel well correlated to the position of the actual gas pedal (seems like there is a delay from throttle input to actual engine throttle movement both adding and reducing throttle). Alignment helped and now im debating a tune and tires and rear 19"wheels to try to mitigate. Wish I could address the e-diff.
Modding the car adds traction issues, which then compounds the problem, because now we have traction issues along with a car that wants to snap sideways.
I'm sure sticky tires will make the car more predictable (because once the car snaps, it's like we are on ice) but then we get back to "WHY" does our modded C6's/ZR1's making the same or more power, same tires, go strait and is a more "predictable" car to drive?
Hey, one of the guys in an earlier post mentioned "The electronic dif is open in tour mode and not in limited slip"......... Is that correct and can someone please elaborate on this?
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12-06-2016, 11:57 AM
#113
Racer
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^ 
My money is still on the E-diff. I've had an 800+ HP C5 that I ran all season tires on and never had a problem controlling it and that thing saw WOT every weekend. My C6Z was right at 500 to the rear tire and was easy (and fun) to do a controlled spin with. Although I do notice a hesitation on the throttle as well, when getting on it AND when getting off of it. Those fractions of a second could make all the difference.
My money is still on the E-diff. I've had an 800+ HP C5 that I ran all season tires on and never had a problem controlling it and that thing saw WOT every weekend. My C6Z was right at 500 to the rear tire and was easy (and fun) to do a controlled spin with. Although I do notice a hesitation on the throttle as well, when getting on it AND when getting off of it. Those fractions of a second could make all the difference.
It's hard to describe what is happening but it definitely does not feel "normal". Even with stability control still on, the car almost got away from me just pointing the steering wheel *straight* and flooring it. I've been driving torquey cars all my life and never felt anything like this before.
I used to laugh and say under my breath "what an idiot" when I watched all those videos on youtube showing the infamous right "hook".
I'm not laughing anymore.
Last edited by pelotonracer2; 12-06-2016 at 11:58 AM.
12-06-2016, 12:04 PM
#114
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Everyone who wants to chime in to "school us" about tires, road crowns, the gas pedal is not a light switch, or about our lack of driving and/or throttle control skills, first go do a burnout like this (see attached video) in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear, then please come back and tell us all about it.
PS:
I can easily burn 1st, 2nd and 3rd in my C6 ZR1 and the car goes dead strait. When I pull 2nd in the CZ Z06, the car wants to "TURN" sideways, and this would be the topic of discussion!
PS:
I can easily burn 1st, 2nd and 3rd in my C6 ZR1 and the car goes dead strait. When I pull 2nd in the CZ Z06, the car wants to "TURN" sideways, and this would be the topic of discussion!
12-06-2016, 12:21 PM
#115
Le Mans Master
It's not the 600hp that does it, and you cannot compare to your heads-and-cam C6 (the blower car discussed above would be different). The "problem" is the 600 ft/lb of torque available immediately at mid-rpm, particularly after a downshift (a WOT downshift is something I don't do in this car). Whether there's a problem beyond "Way more power than the tires can take", I won't venture a guess.
100% - and same for corners taken at too high of a speed. It still could be a problem with the car, but that would take some serious proof.
Until proven otherwise I will go with driver error when people run their cars off the road when accelerating.
Last edited by davepl; 12-06-2016 at 12:24 PM.
12-06-2016, 12:29 PM
#116
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That's the thing...it happens VERY unexpectedly.
If one is pushing a car, there is a point where the driver can expect some kind of warning the limits of the car are close (i.e., understeer, oversteer, etc.).
This doesn't happen with my Z.
It's either everything is all hunky-dory or it's hold on to my a$$ and pray.
It's a very odd thing and not a confidence-building experience...
If one is pushing a car, there is a point where the driver can expect some kind of warning the limits of the car are close (i.e., understeer, oversteer, etc.).
This doesn't happen with my Z.
It's either everything is all hunky-dory or it's hold on to my a$$ and pray.
It's a very odd thing and not a confidence-building experience...
Last edited by pelotonracer2; 12-06-2016 at 12:30 PM.
12-06-2016, 12:40 PM
#118
I owned a Magnusson S/C equipped '04 Z06, cammed, tuned full exhaust. 630hp (flywheel). It never violently ripped to the right in second gear like my '17 does. It even had 345 width rear tires. Last week, I kept stability control on and turned traction control off. I hammered it in second at about 35 mph... I had one hand on the steering wheel and the other on the shifter. Never again. I'll make sure I have both hands on the steering wheel right after I shift.
It's hard to describe what is happening but it definitely does not feel "normal". Even with stability control still on, the car almost got away from me just pointing the steering wheel *straight* and flooring it. I've been driving torquey cars all my life and never felt anything like this before.
I used to laugh and say under my breath "what an idiot" when I watched all those videos on youtube showing the infamous right "hook".
I'm not laughing anymore.
It's hard to describe what is happening but it definitely does not feel "normal". Even with stability control still on, the car almost got away from me just pointing the steering wheel *straight* and flooring it. I've been driving torquey cars all my life and never felt anything like this before.
I used to laugh and say under my breath "what an idiot" when I watched all those videos on youtube showing the infamous right "hook".
I'm not laughing anymore.
Funny you say that, because I recall seeing that youtube video of the red Z06 turning sideways and going into the trees and I said to myself WTF, take the keys off that a-hole, that's just too much car for him.
About 2 weeks later I was leaving my friends house where several of us get together on the weekends, and they all know me and know when I leave, I'm putting on a smoke show, (just as I have done in my C6 ZR1 for the past 5 years, so I know the road, etc)
and by the end of summer my buddies road looks like an airport landing strip.
Like I have done so many times before (in my ZR1) I let it rip, and started blowing the tires off but when I pulled 2nd, the car snapped so hard sideways that the next day my neck and back was sore from being so startled and jerking the wheel so hard in an attempt to correct and straiten out the car. I luckily saved it, but was like WTF was that all about. If someone was videoing me, it would have looked identical to the red Zo6 crash video, minus the trees.
My buddy immediately called me (he was concerned and SHOCKED to see me almost lose a car like that) and said that the car got so sideways that he seen both my side marker lights. Keep in mind he was standing behind me and I was going away from him.
The next weekend I took the ZR1 and Whaaalahh, I learned to drive a car again. It's pretty sad, but from that point forward, I learned not to pull 2nd but just stay in 1st and feather the throttle to stay off the rev limiter. I can smoke them as far as I want to smoke them, but what fun is it if I must stay in 1st gear like a wuss!
12-06-2016, 12:54 PM
#119
Burning Brakes
It's not the 600hp that does it, and you cannot compare to your heads-and-cam C6 (the blower car discussed above would be different). The "problem" is the 600 ft/lb of torque available immediately at mid-rpm, particularly after a downshift (a WOT downshift is something I don't do in this car). Whether there's a problem beyond "Way more power than the tires can take", I won't venture a guess.
100% - and same for corners taken at too high of a speed. It still could be a problem with the car, but that would take some serious proof.
100% - and same for corners taken at too high of a speed. It still could be a problem with the car, but that would take some serious proof.
If that's the case, then why doesn't it happen in a c6 zr1 or viper or gt500? Driver error my ***. I can drive all of the above with no issues, but this car is crazy in a bad way.
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tail_lights (12-08-2016)
12-06-2016, 01:09 PM
#120
Le Mans Master
I'm not saying that car isn't partly responsible, but I haven't put mine in the weeds yet, so... knock on wood I guess. But I don't find mine problematic. I do run drag radials about half the time though, maybe that makes a difference because it spins less.
Lift fast, no problem. Be cautious on upshifts. That works for me. And I find the car pretty predictable and driveable on the track (road course), no problems there.
But for all we know maybe my car is setup with the correct rear camber from the factory. I don't claim to know, but I'm also not ready to write it off as a defect when it doesn't affect all drivers.
I've driven about a half dozen differents Zs at speed now, including a mix of Z06 and (mostly) Z07, coupe and convertible. I found one kind of loose and squirrelly, but it didn't "snap" anything. I could throttle steer it through the long curves near the limit without a problem. And the others were easier still.
It could still be worse than the Viper and old ZR1, I'm not making any claims... just counter-claims against the "it's all the car's fault" stuff.
All that aside, has anyone had their rear alignment "fixed" and then been able to say "The car is now better"? That'd be compelling.
Last edited by davepl; 12-06-2016 at 01:17 PM.