Auto vs Manual - Are there any posted Z06 crashes with the Auto
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Auto vs Manual - Are there any posted Z06 crashes with the Auto
Doing a bit of a background with respect to an article and I am a bit stumped...
In checking the Youtube crash list, which is fairly extensive with the C7 Z06, I cannot find any with auto transmission; they all appear to be manuals. Is this correct? Can we say that the manual is overwhelmingly the favorite for car dealers/detailers/valets and new owners totalling their new Z06??
In checking the Youtube crash list, which is fairly extensive with the C7 Z06, I cannot find any with auto transmission; they all appear to be manuals. Is this correct? Can we say that the manual is overwhelmingly the favorite for car dealers/detailers/valets and new owners totalling their new Z06??
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02-04-2017, 02:00 PM
Melting Slicks
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2018 C6 of Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '10, '17
It is a driver issue. Everyone thinks they are a good driver, including the posters here and including me. So we overestimate our abilities, underestimate the car, fail to drive based on the conditions, ignore the tire temperatures and pressures, refuse to get an alignment, get behind what the car is doing, turn off the nannies, use the throttle as an on-off switch, hit the gas around a corner before the car is pointing straight, drive more aggressively than the situation dictates and in general try to show-off.
In their own mind, everyone is a good driver, until they aren't. Then they blame it on the car, or another driver, or the alignment, or GM, or the gods themselves. Or they come here and give advice when they have no idea what they are talking about (I was one of these). In their head, they are a great driver and everyone else sucks. In reality, we all suck, including me, save a few dedicated souls.
I have been driving stick shifts for 25 years in a wide variety of very fast sports cars. I would have sworn on a bible that I was a great driver. Then I listened to Bill Dearborn and went out on a track. Turns out I suck. I was unpreprared, ill-equipped and lacked the basic skill to navigate the track at speed. I would have bet someone $10,000 that I would have been able to do it, but it turns out I couldn't. Also turns out that my 25 years of driving was probably working against me, as I was over-confident.
So I spent time actually learning how to drive - all over again. Studying vehicle dynamics, such as weight transfer, over and understeer, trail braking, looking ahead, apexing. I studied the physics of it all, using books, watching videos, and listening to practiced veterans like Dearborn and Poorsha. I practiced how to get out of a bad situation, and more importantly how to avoid one to begin with. I spent time in a simulator, on the track and on the road.
I studied my car, the alignment, the tires, the brakes, the suspension, the nannies, the clutch, the cooling and all of the physical systems that represent my car. I also spent time mentally preparing myself to drive. Attempting to recreate situations in my head.
I practiced being smooth. I practiced not looking at reference points, but looking past them. I practiced scanning, keeping my eyes moving, not fixating and being keenly aware of everything - not just a passing awareness. I spent time learning to look where I want to go, not where I don't want to go. I studied my shifting patterns, RPM levels, gearing and brake application. I even spent time learning how to sit properly in my Vette. I drove on bald tires, slicks, summer tires and rain tires, in a wide variety of prepared situations, like skid pads and parking lots, with cones and safety equipment - that I could escape easily and safely, which allowed me to learn the car and it's limits - but most of all learn my limits. Which became immediately obvious and very apparent.
I taught myself how to heel-tow downshift in my C6Z06, and how to properly apex in my C7Z06. I learned what to do if I encounter understeer or oversteer, or what it means if I run out of track after a corner or have too much track left. I started squeezing the throttle, not stabbing it. I studied my vehicles moment of inertia, the traction circle, lateral grip, braking zones, threshold braking and every other thing I could learn about my car and the physics that govern it. And then I practiced, and practiced, and practiced some more. And I did these things again and again and again and again and again. I watched more videos, more simulator time, more actual track time. Over and over and over. Practice doesn't make perfect, but perfect practice might.
I learned to drive all over again, and here I was a 25 year veteran of hotrods with an ego who thought he knew how to drive, but didn't know ****.
So my personal opinion is that all of us, including myself, have a self-inflated opinion of our driving abilities, and some us, as a result wreck our cars. The M7 is less forgiving, and I also think causes something to go wrong with our brains when driving it. We think we are gods, when in reality we are rank amatuers. Fact is, with only a FEW exceptions on these forums, we are vastly unprepared for our vehicles, and the M7, for whatever reason, exacerbates this. We don't have the skill, the understanding, the proper experience or the ultimately humility to drive these cars properly in anger. Thems the facts. Like it or not.
In their own mind, everyone is a good driver, until they aren't. Then they blame it on the car, or another driver, or the alignment, or GM, or the gods themselves. Or they come here and give advice when they have no idea what they are talking about (I was one of these). In their head, they are a great driver and everyone else sucks. In reality, we all suck, including me, save a few dedicated souls.
I have been driving stick shifts for 25 years in a wide variety of very fast sports cars. I would have sworn on a bible that I was a great driver. Then I listened to Bill Dearborn and went out on a track. Turns out I suck. I was unpreprared, ill-equipped and lacked the basic skill to navigate the track at speed. I would have bet someone $10,000 that I would have been able to do it, but it turns out I couldn't. Also turns out that my 25 years of driving was probably working against me, as I was over-confident.
So I spent time actually learning how to drive - all over again. Studying vehicle dynamics, such as weight transfer, over and understeer, trail braking, looking ahead, apexing. I studied the physics of it all, using books, watching videos, and listening to practiced veterans like Dearborn and Poorsha. I practiced how to get out of a bad situation, and more importantly how to avoid one to begin with. I spent time in a simulator, on the track and on the road.
I studied my car, the alignment, the tires, the brakes, the suspension, the nannies, the clutch, the cooling and all of the physical systems that represent my car. I also spent time mentally preparing myself to drive. Attempting to recreate situations in my head.
I practiced being smooth. I practiced not looking at reference points, but looking past them. I practiced scanning, keeping my eyes moving, not fixating and being keenly aware of everything - not just a passing awareness. I spent time learning to look where I want to go, not where I don't want to go. I studied my shifting patterns, RPM levels, gearing and brake application. I even spent time learning how to sit properly in my Vette. I drove on bald tires, slicks, summer tires and rain tires, in a wide variety of prepared situations, like skid pads and parking lots, with cones and safety equipment - that I could escape easily and safely, which allowed me to learn the car and it's limits - but most of all learn my limits. Which became immediately obvious and very apparent.
I taught myself how to heel-tow downshift in my C6Z06, and how to properly apex in my C7Z06. I learned what to do if I encounter understeer or oversteer, or what it means if I run out of track after a corner or have too much track left. I started squeezing the throttle, not stabbing it. I studied my vehicles moment of inertia, the traction circle, lateral grip, braking zones, threshold braking and every other thing I could learn about my car and the physics that govern it. And then I practiced, and practiced, and practiced some more. And I did these things again and again and again and again and again. I watched more videos, more simulator time, more actual track time. Over and over and over. Practice doesn't make perfect, but perfect practice might.
I learned to drive all over again, and here I was a 25 year veteran of hotrods with an ego who thought he knew how to drive, but didn't know ****.
So my personal opinion is that all of us, including myself, have a self-inflated opinion of our driving abilities, and some us, as a result wreck our cars. The M7 is less forgiving, and I also think causes something to go wrong with our brains when driving it. We think we are gods, when in reality we are rank amatuers. Fact is, with only a FEW exceptions on these forums, we are vastly unprepared for our vehicles, and the M7, for whatever reason, exacerbates this. We don't have the skill, the understanding, the proper experience or the ultimately humility to drive these cars properly in anger. Thems the facts. Like it or not.
#2
Turn 12!
I don't like to speak about other people's misfortunes with their Corvettes. Do you have a link to that article that you speak of?
#3
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
It has nothing to do with misfortune at all, but rather, the difference in driveability between the auto and standard. Been driving my entire life and, at least I find, that driving the Z (or any other Supercar for that matter) is a completely different animal...especially as a manual. I think that, where you can get away with much more in the auto, you can't with the standard... I am also trying to determine whether we can safely say many of these accidents would not have occurred if they were an auto.
I am not in any way trying to point anyone out, but rather, identify whether there is a different safety factor involved for all but expert drivers, when taking out the manual Z vs the auto for the first time.
As a perfect example, I let a friend (who builds and races) hop in and take her for a ride in kentucky last Fall. He broke pavement on his first corner...pulled right... and said to me, "The F#$%"!. I have since had another friend, also a avid car guy, also make comment on how the significant power increase...to even the typical street sports car... is so obvious. Just my thoughts...
I am not in any way trying to point anyone out, but rather, identify whether there is a different safety factor involved for all but expert drivers, when taking out the manual Z vs the auto for the first time.
As a perfect example, I let a friend (who builds and races) hop in and take her for a ride in kentucky last Fall. He broke pavement on his first corner...pulled right... and said to me, "The F#$%"!. I have since had another friend, also a avid car guy, also make comment on how the significant power increase...to even the typical street sports car... is so obvious. Just my thoughts...
Last edited by AllFlash; 02-04-2017 at 09:55 AM.
#4
Turn 12!
I think it has less to do with the transmission and more to do with the driver. The nannies seem to react the same regardless.
Maybe others can chime in with their experience.
Maybe others can chime in with their experience.
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AllFlash (02-04-2017)
#5
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
And I agree absolutely that experience is huge.... but ... could the accidents we have seen thusfar in the Z06' possibly been avoided if it was an auto? I have driven both and, even myself, I found myself taking much more care in the standard...mind you that wasn't my car so that could account for it as well...
#6
Burning Brakes
O-Boy, "not the Z06 pulls hard to the right, design flaw and death trap all over again." This 650HP 650TQ Z Corvette is not for your average snow flake driver.
Yes, this Z06 is a beast, not a high rev, low torque sports car most people are used to. Just look at an R8 V10 - only 540hp and 398 lb-ft . This Z demands respect - can you say 650 TORQUE!!!
If you feel the need to wrap yourself in bubble wrap before hitting the launch controlled button, this corvette is not for you.
OP- this is not directed toward you. I understand your question.
Yes, this Z06 is a beast, not a high rev, low torque sports car most people are used to. Just look at an R8 V10 - only 540hp and 398 lb-ft . This Z demands respect - can you say 650 TORQUE!!!
If you feel the need to wrap yourself in bubble wrap before hitting the launch controlled button, this corvette is not for you.
OP- this is not directed toward you. I understand your question.
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AllFlash (02-04-2017)
#7
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
It may be a bit of an unfair question I am asking and two factors come to mind, the first of course is that one cannot honestly answer the question if they haven't sat behind the wheel and gone for a run in a Z ( or a similar performance car).
The second is the fact of evolution. The typical driver today's has been raised, or is used to driving, either/or front wheel drive vehicles where you can mash the peddle regularly. You simply can't mash the peddle on the Z, but for instances of experienced driving. I have let... probably 15 people take my Z for a run, all very experienced drivers, and each i have made a point of telling not to mash the peddle until they gain an understanding of just how quick it is.
The second is the fact of evolution. The typical driver today's has been raised, or is used to driving, either/or front wheel drive vehicles where you can mash the peddle regularly. You simply can't mash the peddle on the Z, but for instances of experienced driving. I have let... probably 15 people take my Z for a run, all very experienced drivers, and each i have made a point of telling not to mash the peddle until they gain an understanding of just how quick it is.
Last edited by AllFlash; 02-04-2017 at 10:51 AM.
#9
Not sure what your point is of this thread. Is it...its easier to have an accident in an M7 than an A8? If you're worried about that, probably looking at the wrong car. Also, if this issue were truly definitive, insurance companies would charge more for the more accident prone car, based on what transmission it had. Just remember, A8's are more prevalent then M7's by 3 to 1, so you're likely to hear of more accidents simply due to numbers. Still don't get what your point of this question is....
#10
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
My flat out opinion is that the M7 is much more dangerous to all but the most experienced driver. I am looking for ANY video's that might show an A8 in an accident, regardless of who is driving, and whether they were racing, showing off or even a valet out for a spin. There are lots of accidents, all of which seem to be in manual tranny versions.
If anyone is taking any offence to this thread whatsoever, you need to look in the mirror, as it is simply asking straightforward questions and I am not blaming anyone or insulting them for their accidents. I am considering publishing an article elsewhere and this is a pertinent point o be made IMO.
If anyone is taking any offence to this thread whatsoever, you need to look in the mirror, as it is simply asking straightforward questions and I am not blaming anyone or insulting them for their accidents. I am considering publishing an article elsewhere and this is a pertinent point o be made IMO.
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#12
Melting Slicks
My 2013 Supercharged Z06 was a M6 and I have to say I felt safer in that than my 2016 ProCharged A8 Z06. If **** started to go crazy I just pushed the clutch in and for the most part it straitened out. I know the nannies help with this to but I never mess with them. I hate to admit it but I miss my M6. I do like the A8 on the weekends when my son and I are driving through the Southside of Pittsburgh for a couple hours at a time and there are 15 stoplights. Just my take on this conversation..
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AllFlash (02-04-2017)
#13
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
My 2013 Supercharged Z06 was a M6 and I have to say I felt safer in that than my 2016 ProCharged A8 Z06. If **** started to go crazy I just pushed the clutch in and for the most part it straitened out. I know the nannies help with this to but I never mess with them. I hate to admit it but I miss my M6. I do like the A8 on the weekends when my son and I are driving through the Southside of Pittsburgh for a couple hours at a time and there are 15 stoplights. Just my take on this conversation..
#14
Drifting
Member Since: Jun 2016
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2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
C7 of Year Winner (track prepared) 2019
Generally speaking, people don't really understand car control.
A lot of M7 drivers think that they have to shove the gear shift into the next gear and dump the clutch on every shift which upsets the car.
A proper shift, whether down or up should be smooth with no discernible jolt that a lot of new stick drivers make.
A lot of M7 drivers think that they have to shove the gear shift into the next gear and dump the clutch on every shift which upsets the car.
A proper shift, whether down or up should be smooth with no discernible jolt that a lot of new stick drivers make.
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#15
Burning Brakes
I'm not trying to be harsh or an a-hole, I have personally witnessed a couple z accidents, cold tires 1st out lap. Just making a statement that this Corvette demands respect to be driven hard.
My 2016 Z06 is A8. This is the first auto in any Corvette I've owned. I have driven M7 and A8 Z06 and both need correct throttle input. but it's the first stock Corvette I have driven where I could not just mash the peddle to the floor!!!!
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AllFlash (02-04-2017)
#16
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Generally speaking, people don't really understand car control.
A lot of M7 drivers think that they have to shove the gear shift into the next gear and dump the clutch on every shift which upsets the car.
A proper shift, whether down or up should be smooth with no discernible jolt that a lot of new stick drivers make.
A lot of M7 drivers think that they have to shove the gear shift into the next gear and dump the clutch on every shift which upsets the car.
A proper shift, whether down or up should be smooth with no discernible jolt that a lot of new stick drivers make.
Everyone here comes from a generation where we have learned hard and fast shifting first hand. This has been passed on to the younger generation, but still, it is so uncharacteristic of the Z06 and this type of shifting is a recipe for danger IMO.
Last edited by AllFlash; 02-04-2017 at 12:41 PM.
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AllFlash (02-04-2017)
#18
Pro
My flat out opinion is that the M7 is much more dangerous to all but the most experienced driver. I am looking for ANY video's that might show an A8 in an accident, regardless of who is driving, and whether they were racing, showing off or even a valet out for a spin. There are lots of accidents, all of which seem to be in manual tranny versions.
If anyone is taking any offence to this thread whatsoever, you need to look in the mirror, as it is simply asking straightforward questions and I am not blaming anyone or insulting them for their accidents. I am considering publishing an article elsewhere and this is a pertinent point o be made IMO.
If anyone is taking any offence to this thread whatsoever, you need to look in the mirror, as it is simply asking straightforward questions and I am not blaming anyone or insulting them for their accidents. I am considering publishing an article elsewhere and this is a pertinent point o be made IMO.
I have seen several videos showing a loss of control on what I assume is the 1 to 2 shift. However I disagree with the statement that one transmission is more "safe" than another.
The safer car is the one well driven. I do not derive pleasure from watching vehicle crashes, but I do learn a lot. What I have seen is people standing on it off the line with "stock" type tires (not drag radials) and having failures when shifting.
My definition of safety is behavior based - driving within your abilities on a properly prepared vehicle for the type of driving you are doing.
In my opinion saying that one transmission is safer than another removes the accountability that I feel is necessary to drive a vehicle with this kind of power.
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#19
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
And I see your point but where I am going... is probably no more than the fact that the car (or any car that will push out 650HP or more), is not a domestic car by any means. The end result is an abundance of guys racing, showing off, driving wrecklessly or just driving without all the facts of what the car is capable of yet...
And then we ask if the car is just too busy to be a standard. Corvette is not the first. We have seen some of the top supercars go to automatic long before the Vette. I have 26000 miles on my Z06 and anyone who has been here for awhile knows i love to drive...everywhere. As much as I love the manual, I still don't think I made the wrong decision with the Z06 to go auto.
At the end of the day, will we trade off the manual transmission for that extra power? Will we see the new corvette do away with manual altogether as this trade becomes more ... common sense.. to builders?
And then we ask if the car is just too busy to be a standard. Corvette is not the first. We have seen some of the top supercars go to automatic long before the Vette. I have 26000 miles on my Z06 and anyone who has been here for awhile knows i love to drive...everywhere. As much as I love the manual, I still don't think I made the wrong decision with the Z06 to go auto.
At the end of the day, will we trade off the manual transmission for that extra power? Will we see the new corvette do away with manual altogether as this trade becomes more ... common sense.. to builders?
Last edited by AllFlash; 02-04-2017 at 12:56 PM.
#20
Drifting
Member Since: Jun 2016
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And I see your point but where I am going... is probably no more than the fact that the car (or any car that will push out 650HP or more), is not a domestic car by any means. The end result is an abundance of guys racing, showing off, driving wrecklessly or just driving without all the facts of what the car is capable of yet...
And then we ask if the car is just too busy to be a standard. Corvette is not the first. We have seen some of the top supercars go to automatic long before the Vette. I have 26000 miles on my Z06 and anyone who has been here for awhile knows i love to drive...everywhere. As much as I love the manual, I still don't think I made the wrong decision with the Z06 to go auto.
At the end of the day, will we trade off the manual transmission for that extra power? Will we see the new corvette do away with manual altogether as this trade becomes more ... common sense.. to builders?
And then we ask if the car is just too busy to be a standard. Corvette is not the first. We have seen some of the top supercars go to automatic long before the Vette. I have 26000 miles on my Z06 and anyone who has been here for awhile knows i love to drive...everywhere. As much as I love the manual, I still don't think I made the wrong decision with the Z06 to go auto.
At the end of the day, will we trade off the manual transmission for that extra power? Will we see the new corvette do away with manual altogether as this trade becomes more ... common sense.. to builders?
Well for the sake of argument, very very few supercars went to automatics, they went to real supercar transmissions, dual clutch automated manuals.
The absence of a torque converter makes a massive difference and still requires skill to drive at the limit especially in manual mode.
My only hope is that PDK becomes more and more mainstream and less focus is put on ridiculous 90 speed automatics.
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