Mikec7z

yeah, but if solder turns to liquid at 360, and 260+ is within 100 degrees of melting point...

think what happens to steel or aluminum when you are within 100 degrees of their melting points?

And now lets be real here, these cars don't go into limp mode until 315 or 320 engine temp.

I think it may have even been your shop who pointed out that the blowers get hotter, faster, than the engine does... maybe it wasn't you... but it was someone explaining why the fasterprom insulator blocks were a joke... and that the engine block actually ABSORBS heat from the blower, and keeps the blower cooler than when the blower is insulated. IR heat vision has confirmed the blower is the hottest point on the motor when the pump shuts down.

320 is 40 degrees from solder fail point... and we know the vettes go there, to 320 don't we?

Meanwhile... how hot is the blower if the pump shut down, for 3 min, leading up to that 320 engine temp, and the car has been at WOT a good amount of that time? This is all on a stock lt4 blower, 650 hp. Imagine 1100hp. Its simple common sense here folks.

Meanwhile, there is pressure because the water is trying to boil, and that boiling water is TRAPPED in the cooling bricks, sitting still while the pump is off, with colder non boiled water, on each side, at the inlet and outlet ports of the bricks, holding the PRESSURIZED STEAM inside the cooling bricks.

I buy it. Solder is not invincible when it is within 40 degrees of turning into liquid. let alone when it is at room temp, and you throw enough pressurized force at it.

Ben@WeaponX

I would almost guarantee the OEM IC bricks are brazed, not soldered, which has a melting point of over 830* if I recall. If you log the car, the IVTs don't even get to half of the value of this melting point compared to the explosive combustion from the engine which puts off all three heat transfer functions of conduction, convection.

A supercharger primarily only creates heat one way, which is compressing air and emitting heat as that byproduct aside from the minimal heat produced from the rotation in the bearings. Heat cannot continue to compound from air compression as it will reach a maximum thermal value. The supercharger cannot create more heat from compressing air than the engine can create during thermal combustion with respect to cylinder compression, which is measured at 150-200 PSI without ignition vs. a supercharger's boost of say 20-30psi. Think of the torque needed on on the supercharger lid vs. head studs, you're talking lb in vs lb ft. Aside from that, it picks up the radiated heat from the engine below it, convection from hot air off the radiator circulating in the engine bay, as well as heat conducted from sitting on the cylinder heads below it. Air pockets in the IC bricks do not affect any of those unless they were able to exceed the temperature of the cylinder heads absorbing combustion below it which is certainly less as EGTs on boosted cars are into 4 digits, and while pressure can build, the coolant would have to reach a point of more than 250* to reach it's phase change temperature. While I haven't tested it, I highly doubt GM did not incorporate a relief valve on the OEM fill port, which takes you back to the compression of air from the supercharger.

Air pockets rise in the system, so they will naturally stay at the highest point, thus I have not seen any pump cavitation with the pump at the lowest point, other than trying to prime a pump at initial start up, so this all goes back to the improper bleeding of the supercharger system.

Mikec7z

oem lt4, i believe that about the brazen, and you have to forgive me, 2 different people on this forum who we all consider "experts" to some degree, came into that other thread and bragged that 360 melting point of solder was going to keep everything held together just fine.... and thats whan i went

Now, my concern is what are the whipple bricks brazen?

Don't get me wrong, I want to buy a unit. I am not here to bash your product or your shop. I want this on my next car. I have this convo going on in my other thread as well...

but i want to make sure this is all bulletproof before i put it in my car.

A person tells me they know of a failed, brick, and coolant in the motor... meanwhile i find vidoes on the internet of it happening... i start to show concern.

IF it is brazed instead of soldered, that is useful info... that I did not know. I will leave it to you to find out if that is in fact truth or not.

Meanwhile however, points about how an air to air intercooler brings 375 temps down to under 200... mean nothing to me... Let me explain...

the air to air intercooler is away from the motor... even if the car is sitting still.. it still has air colder than 375 degrees, all around it... of course it will cool things down.

Meanwhile, with water to air coolant bricks... inside a blower... it is a whole different story.

3 minutes of shutdown...

the lid of the blower is over 300 degrees... the rotor screws are over 300 degrees, and the engine block of the car... is over 300 degrees...

the water inside the cooling bricks... and the cooling bricks... in 2 min time... WILL BE ABOVE 300 degrees.

There is no cooling effect from this heat exchanger when there is no flow through it, and it has had time to equalize in temperature, for over 2 minutes of time, as super hot air is ... not just AROUND it... it is PRESSURIZED AND BLOWING THROUGH IT... it is 300+degree in the blink of an eye when everything else around it is as well.

It provides no cooling without fluid flowing through it. Period. NONE.

So lets wrap our mind around that concept before we go any further.

In the meantime, i could have been wrong to assume solder.. and i hope i am wrong... however... i am still going to pursue trying to figure out how to keep the blower coolant pump(s) from shutting down, and i think every shop who claims they care about our engines... with blowers attached, should be on the same venture.

The fact that me... a single little guy... who has no profit to gain... is figuring this all out for everyone else... 4 YEARS AFTER these cars entered the market... and I am encountered with everyone assuring me that "these bricks don't burst, and these cars don't overheat", and the pump shutting off for 3 min and letting the cooling bricks equalize in temp with the rest of the engine and blower, and the blowers screws are hotter than the motor...

4 YEARS... and this is still the outlook of EVERY MAJOR SHOP on this forum.

Pardon me for getting a bit frustrated. Im not against you guys.

Im just trying to figure out whats going on, and 320+ degrees in cooling bricks that MAY or MAY NOT be held together with solder (NO ONE KNOWS 100% yet apparently)... IS A BIG PROBLEM IN MY BOOK.

And this problem needs to be looked into before i write a check for 6 grand for a blower, to stick on top of my 15 grand motor.

Mikec7z

get me a warranty where a top mounted 1000hp producing blower company, warranties their cooling bricks and the engine its all on top if, if their bricks fail... when NO FLUID is flowed through the bricks for 3 MINUTES...

and ill shut up immediately.

until then, im going to ask question, and im going to call "bullshit" when read it.

Mikec7z

if you guys solve how to get the cooling pumps to stop shutting down for 3 min, beyond a shadow of a doubt... they will never shut down for 3 min...

OR YOU HAVE AN ALARM THAT GOES OFF WHEN THEY DO SHUT DOWN...

you will be the first shop on the forum to do so, and you will make a lot of money is my prediction... just on sales of THAT system alone... forget the blower.

I am not your enemy. I want a problem solved. Solve it. And youll have my money.

ajrothm

LS9 engines are NOTORIOUS for melting bricks...even with just a 2.3" pulley. I've personally seen the carnage of 2 of these melt downs.

I haven't heard of this on LT4 blowers yet but.... its certainly possible.

Mikec7z

im the same way... im not here to say this is a bad product, im just cautious before i jump into something, and i need facts... and the problem is, not a ton of these are on vettes... which do get to 320 degrees and limp mode back to the pits... and have already had 1 failure according to a friend of mine on the phone... and do have a coolant pump that shuts off for 3 min at a time.... so im trying to solve the problem in advance, instead of later.. and then it costs me over 20 grand as well.

I think i have made my points, but just in case anyone is impressed with the pressure figures of the combustion chamber vs the blower, and thinks the blower does not make 375+ degrees at the screws...

please understand.... whether it is a centri blower, or screw style blower... right at the blades or the screws... you have IMMENSE FRICTION AND PRESSURE AND HEAT... and the psi of the air in these mico pockets, are well in excess or 50psi, only when it is released back into the open (relativity, the intake manifold area and intake runners), does it expand again go down in overall psi to 15psi etc.

The scews on the blower, i will look up the temp... but i guarantee they are hotter than the engine coolant of 320 degrees when the cars hit limp mode..

Ben@WeaponX

The LS9 bricks also did not melt, they came apart from boost. You are not melting aluminum inside of a supercharger, it's not something I am trying to debate, its physics. This is why companies offer reinforced bricks or aftermarket bricks to reinforce the areas that blow apart from airflow and pressure.

As for the Whipple, again there is no problem with their bricks either.

How many Whipples are out there on LT cars and because Drew's engine failed due to improper installation, there is a concern the product is faulty? One guy out of hundreds? Come on man... the sky is not falling LOL Dont you think any shop selling and installing Whipples would be concerned if this was a legitimate issue? Our highest HP Whipple has made 23psi at 21,000 blower RPMs at that.

Also, the IC pump is PWM controlled and doesn't just shut off for 3m either. I'm sorry Mike, but a lot of the info you're basing your conclusions on just aren't factual and I dont want to see you waste this much effort chasing a non existent problem.

Has this "melted" brick been sent to Whipple? Obviously if they were faulty, they would be culpable.

Anyone pressure tested it or the other good one?

Creating this much concern over a single person without factual firsthand information does nothing for consumers and is not fair to Whipple either. It's not even my product so other than making it fit the C7, it's not I have any skin in the game.

BooSSted

So..... WTF happened in this thread?
I like to check in time to time to see the progress of builds. But see this thread has been taken by some technical side talk...
Did this build go down due to the IC bricks?
Why would one mess with the current IC bricks if it was a new blower install?

3 Z06ZR1

Ben@WeaponX

No, as far as I know, there hasn't been a single shop installed Whipple that had supercharger brick issues. To help give Mike some peace of mind, I hit up Dustin Whipple to ask about their bricks and they are indeed brazed. So while I understand the potential concern, I don't think he's getting all of or accurate info as to the one failure he's speaking of. The Tmap sensor under the brick followed by the gaskets holding the bricks in would be the first to go, and with brazing not melting until 840* (not the 830 I mentioned earlier), for blower temps to reach that inside is literally impossible. To put that into perspective, combustion temps in the cylinder are less than 1200* F on average, as the AL cylinder heads would have to be able to withstand the heat. Like I said, it's not like the couldn't use bleed ports, but it's also not an issue of a flawed product if vacuum filled properly.