Should I add stage 2 aero at rear if not adding at front for track
12-16-2017, 08:54 AM
#1
Should I add stage 2 aero at rear if not adding at front for track
I am a novice on a track (2 days Spring Mountain, 2 track days on a flat relatively simple track and a few other experiences) and I am NOT trying to drive at my cars limits. I have a stock 2016 Z06 M7 without Z07.
I will be driving at Road Atlanta this winter and was considering adding stage 2 aero at the rear. I really don't want to add it to the front. Is this a good thing to do or if I don't add stage 2 to the front then I should not add stage 2 to the rear?
Tadge describes balancing front and rear down force in an ask Tadge anwer. ( https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...c7-models.html )
And, Corvette track setup (https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam...tion-guide.pdf ) talks about about Z07 package includes aero stage 2 installed front and back and that you need to follow the guidelines it you install aero stage 3.
Thank you for your thoughts. Scott
I will be driving at Road Atlanta this winter and was considering adding stage 2 aero at the rear. I really don't want to add it to the front. Is this a good thing to do or if I don't add stage 2 to the front then I should not add stage 2 to the rear?
Tadge describes balancing front and rear down force in an ask Tadge anwer. ( https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...c7-models.html )
And, Corvette track setup (https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam...tion-guide.pdf ) talks about about Z07 package includes aero stage 2 installed front and back and that you need to follow the guidelines it you install aero stage 3.
Thank you for your thoughts. Scott
12-16-2017, 09:04 AM
#2
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I have the stage 1 poverty splitter on the front and I added the stage 2 wings to the spoiler. I have had the car over 150 mph several times and it just plants. I have had no issues in handling. Mine is a GS without Z07.
I added stage 2 purely for looks.
I added stage 2 purely for looks.
12-16-2017, 09:51 AM
#3
It will be aero unbalanced at speed but given that you say you are a novice I doubt you will push the car to the point where you will notice. The good news is that an "aero push" is going to be far safer than being loose/oversteer at high speeds.
The only thing I'd worry about is whether there's any kind of compounding effect where the stage 2 causes enough compression at the rear that without the real front splitter you get enough front end lift to let a lot of air under the car in turn causing even more front lift.
Did you use the 2-sided tape when you installed the stage 2? If not, then I'd just see how the car feels and bring a torx driver with you. Worst case unbolt and remove the stage 2 wicker at the track and then put them back on when you leave.
EDIT: I just realized that you were considering and haven't done this. I don't think this is going to be an improvement at the track if that's why you're doing it.
The only thing I'd worry about is whether there's any kind of compounding effect where the stage 2 causes enough compression at the rear that without the real front splitter you get enough front end lift to let a lot of air under the car in turn causing even more front lift.
Did you use the 2-sided tape when you installed the stage 2? If not, then I'd just see how the car feels and bring a torx driver with you. Worst case unbolt and remove the stage 2 wicker at the track and then put them back on when you leave.
EDIT: I just realized that you were considering and haven't done this. I don't think this is going to be an improvement at the track if that's why you're doing it.
Last edited by Poor-sha; 12-16-2017 at 09:52 AM.
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SCOTTCM (12-16-2017)
12-16-2017, 11:21 AM
#4
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You need to consider more than straight line speed. I would want the car balanced as Tadge indicates. If you don't want to add the Stage 2 front splitter then don't add the Stage 2 rear spoiler. As Poor-Sha says not having the Stage 2 front splitter while having the Stage 2 rear spoiler can cause a higher potential for understeer which could result in backing out of the throttle more than you normally would to get the car to turn the way you want it to turn.
An example that you should be familiar with is from Spring Mountain. There is a right hand turn that exits into a dip that curves to the right. As you enter the dip the coaches have you lift and steer for the cone on the right on the uphill side of the dip. That sets you up for the next straight. If you don't lift the car won't turn into the cone easily. When you do lift the car turns nicely into the cone and you can get on the throttle sooner. It is an excellent demonstration of Trailing Throttle Oversteer. As you go into the dip the front wheels lose grip due to the ground falling away from them, thus the car doesn't want to turn as quickly as it would on level ground. By lifting you move weight from the rear of the car to the front of the car to provide more front grip so the car turns and at the same time reducing grip on the rear tires. This makes it easier for the car to pivot in the direction you want to go.
Now think of the same turn with added rear down force. To get the car to turn you will have to lift off the throttle more to compensate for the unbalanced condition. That means you can't get back to the throttle as soon and the speed at the other end of the following straight will be less.
One thing to remember if you are going to increase grip on only one end of the car always do it on the rear. It is a lot easier to control increased under steer than it is to control increased over steer. Usually with under steer lifting off the throttle is the automatic and correct response. With trailing throttle over steer the automatic response of lifting off the throttle is the exact wrong thing to do and you end up going into the weeds rear end first.
That is what used to destroy a lot of the earlier 911 Porsches. They really responded to trailing throttle over steer and had a nasty habit of snapping around when the driver lifted off the throttle at the wrong point in a turn. It greatly enhanced getting around a corner if the driver knew how to use the instability.
Bill
An example that you should be familiar with is from Spring Mountain. There is a right hand turn that exits into a dip that curves to the right. As you enter the dip the coaches have you lift and steer for the cone on the right on the uphill side of the dip. That sets you up for the next straight. If you don't lift the car won't turn into the cone easily. When you do lift the car turns nicely into the cone and you can get on the throttle sooner. It is an excellent demonstration of Trailing Throttle Oversteer. As you go into the dip the front wheels lose grip due to the ground falling away from them, thus the car doesn't want to turn as quickly as it would on level ground. By lifting you move weight from the rear of the car to the front of the car to provide more front grip so the car turns and at the same time reducing grip on the rear tires. This makes it easier for the car to pivot in the direction you want to go.
Now think of the same turn with added rear down force. To get the car to turn you will have to lift off the throttle more to compensate for the unbalanced condition. That means you can't get back to the throttle as soon and the speed at the other end of the following straight will be less.
One thing to remember if you are going to increase grip on only one end of the car always do it on the rear. It is a lot easier to control increased under steer than it is to control increased over steer. Usually with under steer lifting off the throttle is the automatic and correct response. With trailing throttle over steer the automatic response of lifting off the throttle is the exact wrong thing to do and you end up going into the weeds rear end first.
That is what used to destroy a lot of the earlier 911 Porsches. They really responded to trailing throttle over steer and had a nasty habit of snapping around when the driver lifted off the throttle at the wrong point in a turn. It greatly enhanced getting around a corner if the driver knew how to use the instability.
Bill
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SCOTTCM (12-16-2017)
12-16-2017, 07:25 PM
#5
Melting Slicks
I've been running stage 3 front and stage 2 rear aero for a bunch of events now. I've definitely noticed the rear to be loose particularly under trailing throttle as Bill has been describing. I now know to expect the rear end slide and catch it regularly though it does happen quickly. I have the rear stage 3 wickerbill which i plan to add before going to Sebring in 3 weeks. Looking forward to how the handling changes.
Here's a video where the rear gets loose. I was a bit late in braking and downshifting which i was completing at turn in and compounded the issue. I also think there was fluid on track because you'll see right after the slide there's a BMW in the wall facing the wrong direction. It's never fun to be sliding as waving black and yellow flags come into view...
Here's a video where the rear gets loose. I was a bit late in braking and downshifting which i was completing at turn in and compounded the issue. I also think there was fluid on track because you'll see right after the slide there's a BMW in the wall facing the wrong direction. It's never fun to be sliding as waving black and yellow flags come into view...
Last edited by spearfish25; 12-16-2017 at 07:27 PM.
12-16-2017, 10:29 PM
#7
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I've been running stage 3 front and stage 2 rear aero for a bunch of events now. I've definitely noticed the rear to be loose particularly under trailing throttle as Bill has been describing. I now know to expect the rear end slide and catch it regularly though it does happen quickly. I have the rear stage 3 wickerbill which i plan to add before going to Sebring in 3 weeks. Looking forward to how the handling changes.
Here's a video where the rear gets loose. I was a bit late in braking and downshifting which i was completing at turn in and compounded the issue. I also think there was fluid on track because you'll see right after the slide there's a BMW in the wall facing the wrong direction. It's never fun to be sliding as waving black and yellow flags come into view...
Here's a video where the rear gets loose. I was a bit late in braking and downshifting which i was completing at turn in and compounded the issue. I also think there was fluid on track because you'll see right after the slide there's a BMW in the wall facing the wrong direction. It's never fun to be sliding as waving black and yellow flags come into view...
Bill
12-17-2017, 07:53 AM
#8
Melting Slicks
Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn
Interesting video. The last time I ran my C6Z at Sebring (Mar 2014) I was getting exactly the same step out in almost the same spot. I resolved it by knocking the rear tire pressure down 2 psi. Worked fine at Sebring but the car didn't like that pressure in the rear the next time I ran VIR.
Bill
Bill
Last edited by spearfish25; 12-17-2017 at 08:15 AM.
12-17-2017, 08:14 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
This brings up another question. For those of us with the Stage 1 aero, is it potent enough for a novice - intermediate driver on most tracks?
Is the car prone to bite me if I stick with the stage 1 aero?
Is the car prone to bite me if I stick with the stage 1 aero?
12-17-2017, 08:33 PM
#10
Drifting
You need to consider more than straight line speed. I would want the car balanced as Tadge indicates. If you don't want to add the Stage 2 front splitter then don't add the Stage 2 rear spoiler. As Poor-Sha says not having the Stage 2 front splitter while having the Stage 2 rear spoiler can cause a higher potential for understeer which could result in backing out of the throttle more than you normally would to get the car to turn the way you want it to turn.
An example that you should be familiar with is from Spring Mountain. There is a right hand turn that exits into a dip that curves to the right. As you enter the dip the coaches have you lift and steer for the cone on the right on the uphill side of the dip. That sets you up for the next straight. If you don't lift the car won't turn into the cone easily. When you do lift the car turns nicely into the cone and you can get on the throttle sooner. It is an excellent demonstration of Trailing Throttle Oversteer. As you go into the dip the front wheels lose grip due to the ground falling away from them, thus the car doesn't want to turn as quickly as it would on level ground. By lifting you move weight from the rear of the car to the front of the car to provide more front grip so the car turns and at the same time reducing grip on the rear tires. This makes it easier for the car to pivot in the direction you want to go.
Now think of the same turn with added rear down force. To get the car to turn you will have to lift off the throttle more to compensate for the unbalanced condition. That means you can't get back to the throttle as soon and the speed at the other end of the following straight will be less.
One thing to remember if you are going to increase grip on only one end of the car always do it on the rear. It is a lot easier to control increased under steer than it is to control increased over steer. Usually with under steer lifting off the throttle is the automatic and correct response. With trailing throttle over steer the automatic response of lifting off the throttle is the exact wrong thing to do and you end up going into the weeds rear end first.
That is what used to destroy a lot of the earlier 911 Porsches. They really responded to trailing throttle over steer and had a nasty habit of snapping around when the driver lifted off the throttle at the wrong point in a turn. It greatly enhanced getting around a corner if the driver knew how to use the instability.
Bill
An example that you should be familiar with is from Spring Mountain. There is a right hand turn that exits into a dip that curves to the right. As you enter the dip the coaches have you lift and steer for the cone on the right on the uphill side of the dip. That sets you up for the next straight. If you don't lift the car won't turn into the cone easily. When you do lift the car turns nicely into the cone and you can get on the throttle sooner. It is an excellent demonstration of Trailing Throttle Oversteer. As you go into the dip the front wheels lose grip due to the ground falling away from them, thus the car doesn't want to turn as quickly as it would on level ground. By lifting you move weight from the rear of the car to the front of the car to provide more front grip so the car turns and at the same time reducing grip on the rear tires. This makes it easier for the car to pivot in the direction you want to go.
Now think of the same turn with added rear down force. To get the car to turn you will have to lift off the throttle more to compensate for the unbalanced condition. That means you can't get back to the throttle as soon and the speed at the other end of the following straight will be less.
One thing to remember if you are going to increase grip on only one end of the car always do it on the rear. It is a lot easier to control increased under steer than it is to control increased over steer. Usually with under steer lifting off the throttle is the automatic and correct response. With trailing throttle over steer the automatic response of lifting off the throttle is the exact wrong thing to do and you end up going into the weeds rear end first.
That is what used to destroy a lot of the earlier 911 Porsches. They really responded to trailing throttle over steer and had a nasty habit of snapping around when the driver lifted off the throttle at the wrong point in a turn. It greatly enhanced getting around a corner if the driver knew how to use the instability.
Bill
As usual Bill is right.
12-17-2017, 08:35 PM
#11
Drifting