BLACK N FAST

rip

ncstingray

A very somber afternoon at RRR yesterday. A sickening feeling watching one stretcher being airlifted out knowing there was most likely two occupants. Then the confirmation someone passed was a huge blow.

Great talking to you TopSpeed, I was the guy in the red cayman s.

TopSpeedNeed

You also, let me know when you are headed back to RRR. Bring you Z next time, we can have some fun...

RedLS6

Very sad day. RIP

binsayyar

sorry to hear about this, best wishes for the instructor's recovery.

jbsblownc5

Very sorry to hear this, was just at the track yesterday...

RIP

gymdoc

RIP.. a glooming reminder of danger vs. fun..

09Z06pj

Hate to hear of tragedies such as this. Prayers for the deceased and injured and all others affected.

Newton06

Oh God, as a fledgling instructor, this is my worst fear.

My first student ever spun his Miata not once, but twice exiting Hog Pen at VIR and miraculously avoided impact both times.

I learned right away the importance if reeling drivers in at the onset (especially those who claim to have extensive auto-x experience), and that what seems like a fine speed for me, may be impossible for a novice. It makes you wonder if the free track time is worth the risks.

I just signed up for the BMW CCA Instructor Training School, a 3-day intensive event at Watkins Glen. This story gives me the chills.

Very sad. RIP & condolences to the families.

Scoobydoobydoo

Our prayers are with his family

63Corvette

A very sad occurrence. I feel terrible for the victim's family who must deal with it.....but one that "we" as instructors, must deal with also.

shizon'00

So sorry to hear this

Moto One

There's not much to be done when it's a medical problem. RIP. And a fast full recovery wishes.

Mark.

Side note to instructors/coaches, whether approved by your organization or not, develop the skill of controlling a car from the right seat. This was a skill we were taught when going thru EVOC instructor training, and has save me and student more then a few times.

Newton06

If you are referring to this from a physical aspect, other than grabbing the wheel (which I have done many times), there is not much more instructors can do. This is why controlling the car & driver with verbal & visual commands is so critical. I'm always trying to force myself to think 2 - 3 turns ahead of where the student is currently; a challenging task at speed!

While I have to been to RRR, I've been told the dirt berms there are very dangerous.

MerakiAutoworks

Very sorry to hear. RIP..

-Josh

spearfish25

I don't say this in reference to this incident or any others. But as a general piece of food for thought:

Before all you guys who instruct go grabbing the steering wheels of student drivers, appreciate your liability in the event of a crash. The student could bring litigation against you for you having intervened and touched the controls. Simply being an instructor doesn't give you legal protection.

Newton06

You should probably read the numerous waivers *all* participants are required to sign prior to setting a wheel on a racetrack. Complete indemnification of any and all parties is generally required.

That being said, I would love to see such a case go to trial.

'So there we were, entering the uphill esses (T7) at VIR, my foot planted in the floor, the instructor screaming at me to lift. He was a *****, because I knew I had the skills of Aryton Senna. Just as the car bagan to oversteer into the tire wall below the Villas approaching T8, he grabbed the wheel, causing us to spin to the right, thereby damaging my carbon fiber bits and causing severe whiplash as we came to a sudden stop just before talking out the T8 cornerwork station. It was the instructor's fault!'

But I can see where this is headed, instructors now being required to have students sign additional waivers...

Gotta love lawyers.

Poor-sha

I feel this loss very personally even though I do not know the names of either person involved. I'll weigh in again as someone with first-hand experience with this type of situation although I kind of hate to take the conversation away from the fact that we lost a friend in the hobby and seriously injured an instructor colleague.

First, anybody can sue for any reason and let's face it - you will have no option but to lawyer up and that will cost money whether you are in the right or not. We had this exact conversation at the annual coaches symposium a year ago with an actual attorney and he said that for the most part the waivers that you sign are there to protect the track and the organizers. They don't do anything to protect the instructors.

I can tell you that my order of thought as I sat there upside down hanging from the belts went something like this. Am I going to miss the rest of the event? Am I going to end up in the hospital and miss work? Is this guy going to sue me because I was the instructor in the car?

From what I've heard in this case the student had a medical emergency and locked up with the accelerator to the floor. It sounds like the instructor actually tried to spin the car or make the turn by grabbing the wheel but frankly there was too much speed already, an accelerator at WOT, and not much room or time to do anything. I don't see what else the instructor could have done other than kill the ignition but I believe those are still on the left in 911s out of tradition (if you could even thing fast enough to try).

In the case of my incident in the right seat the track director took me later to the scene to observe the skid marks and discuss. His contention was that I should have tried to adjust the students line by grabbing the wheel and in our training it is something we practice every year we recertify. In fact, we drive an entire lap from the passenger seat in instructor training while the "student" does his best to try and make it difficult (within reason).

However, when you are there in a right seat with a student that is doing well and you see them make a mistake you give them direction per usual. By the time I realized he wasn't complying we were heavily yawed and heading downhill through the grass to the tire wall. True I could have grabbed the wheel sooner but there is no guarantee it would have worked and to the point of others had we still crashed it would have been a very different dynamic. I was lucky that we both walked away with only minor injuries and the student was an incredibly nice guy. However, it made very real the danger of it and the potential to get seriously hurt or killed.

I'm coming to the belief that other than very first timers the future of instruction is going to be done via lead/follow and data/video analysis. I don't worry too much about the people that are showing up for the first time - it's the folks that have done it enough to be fast but not enough to know how to react when something goes wrong. It's like the first 100 hours of flying.

spearfish25

This is probably a fair explanation why the Ron Fellows instructors don't get in the cars with students during the Corvette owner's course. While there aren't enough to go around completely, they do have enough instructors where they could have a couple sessions with one riding along. Heck, with mesh wifi around a track one could coach while watching a video feed.

BEZ06

That's a good idea. Of course the lead follow thing is done at Spring Mt, but out there a lot of drivers have never been on a track before.

But I think it's a good idea for slightly more advanced drivers as well.

I think a lot of events could use better classroom instruction. I know the NCM VIR event has Chuck Hawks, who gives OUTSTANDING classroom presentations, and has incorporated the use of a simulator over the last few years.


Yeah - I know what you mean!! After many thousands of hours flight instructing, every time I get in the right seat of a car I think "dayum, I wish there was another set of controls over here!!" Like you say, a beginner/novice isn't too bad, but some of the intermediates that are starting to get pretty fast and aggressive sometimes pucker me up.

,