Crawford Racing squeezes 841 RWHP from stock LT4 fuel system on full E85!!??
03-15-2018, 01:19 PM
#42
Former Vendor
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 18,673
Received 393 Likes
on
286 Posts
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12'-'13-'14-'15
I will never have another PD blower car. Love how this thing feels and the sound
:rock :
03-15-2018, 01:21 PM
#43
Former Vendor
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 18,673
Received 393 Likes
on
286 Posts
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12'-'13-'14-'15
...the E85 part gives me pause, but would love it to be true. Lets approach this analytically
Max HP (LT4 blower): 700whp/820 BHP
SC->Turbo Efficiency: 100whp/120 BHP (blower requires 100+hp to turn)
New Max: 800whp/940 BHP
Note: numbers are directionally correct
Cars will vary in power to some extent 20-40whp from dyno to dyno. Is there enough efficiency in the turbo (at higher boost levels) to drive the difference? Interesting topic to be sure. The stock LT4 1.7 starts to be less efficient (e.g. less hp/lb of boost) as its spun faster.
Max HP (LT4 blower): 700whp/820 BHP
SC->Turbo Efficiency: 100whp/120 BHP (blower requires 100+hp to turn)
New Max: 800whp/940 BHP
Note: numbers are directionally correct
Cars will vary in power to some extent 20-40whp from dyno to dyno. Is there enough efficiency in the turbo (at higher boost levels) to drive the difference? Interesting topic to be sure. The stock LT4 1.7 starts to be less efficient (e.g. less hp/lb of boost) as its spun faster.
Look I wont lie, you guys are much smarter than me technically. I know basics and sales. Are you taking into account that the Turbo is approximately 20% more efficient than the PD blower? The turbo is a gt4508R 80mm 11 Blade Billet Turbo 1.15 Turbine Housing
Last edited by Cajun @ Edgyvette; 03-15-2018 at 01:28 PM.
03-15-2018, 01:25 PM
#44
Former Vendor
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 18,673
Received 393 Likes
on
286 Posts
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12'-'13-'14-'15
Yes it's been done before and we've been pushing the limits of the stock low pressure side for years. We all know how much fuel the low side is capable of moving and a port injection system doesn't change that.
Afterwards you then say that it also has meth injection on it which again makes this post not even close to being factual, but it's something that we (tuners) know isn't possible anyways because we've been there and done that. Not sure what the LT5 has to do with this post either since it's rated for another 105 horsepower over the LT4 not on ANY ethanol.
Afterwards you then say that it also has meth injection on it which again makes this post not even close to being factual, but it's something that we (tuners) know isn't possible anyways because we've been there and done that. Not sure what the LT5 has to do with this post either since it's rated for another 105 horsepower over the LT4 not on ANY ethanol.
Need to see another car on stock LT4 fuel system making this power with port injection please?
03-15-2018, 04:50 PM
#45
They are forgetting it’s TURBO...a PD blower at the same boost and fuel load would be a LOT less rear wheel 
The following users liked this post:
Mikec7z (04-26-2019)
03-15-2018, 05:54 PM
#46
Team Owner
The whole thread is apples to oranges! 
03-15-2018, 06:14 PM
#47
Former Vendor
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 18,673
Received 393 Likes
on
286 Posts
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12'-'13-'14-'15
You hit it on the head brother. Chris simply shared what we did and how the car performed. We are not trying to say we have landed on the moon, but simply that there may be undiscovered potential by using a more efficient FI source and a super high quality port injection system. Having a serious bad *** tuner and port injection expert doesnt hurt either. Thanks CRAWFORD RACING
03-15-2018, 06:30 PM
#48
Melting Slicks
You hit it on the head brother. Chris simply shared what we did and how the car performed. We are not trying to say we have landed on the moon, but simply that there may be undiscovered potential by using a more efficient FI source and a super high quality port injection system. Having a serious bad *** tuner and port injection expert doesnt hurt either. Thanks CRAWFORD RACING
The following users liked this post:
Mikec7z (04-25-2019)
03-16-2018, 09:16 AM
#49
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Guys, again, this thread was never an advocation to not upgrade your LPFP, this car is getting a full LPFP upgrade. I mean, heck, I have C7 LPFP fuel pump kits to sell as well!!
The thread was to show how suprising it was that the low side was capable of supplying a ridiculous amount of fuel. I have never seen anyone test the stock fuel system with just adding the port injection. Most of my customers have already learned the fuel system limitations by the time they have considered the PI and have a LPFP upgrade already in place.
This first graph is a heat soaked pull before the cooled down "glory" 841 pull. This car does not have an electronic boost controler, and does drop boost as rpm increases, and is still a completely stock LT4 engine including the stock VVT cam, which does seem to have a hard time keeping up with higher boost levels. Power does peak and roll off, as expected with less boost and stock valvetrain. AFR remains fairly steady, I command it rich earlier in the run to help spool the turbo. HPFP remains on target and AFR follows. The stock LPFP is supplying 16 injectors and the HPFP and does run at a lower pressure, as expected.
The thread was to show how suprising it was that the low side was capable of supplying a ridiculous amount of fuel. I have never seen anyone test the stock fuel system with just adding the port injection. Most of my customers have already learned the fuel system limitations by the time they have considered the PI and have a LPFP upgrade already in place.
This first graph is a heat soaked pull before the cooled down "glory" 841 pull. This car does not have an electronic boost controler, and does drop boost as rpm increases, and is still a completely stock LT4 engine including the stock VVT cam, which does seem to have a hard time keeping up with higher boost levels. Power does peak and roll off, as expected with less boost and stock valvetrain. AFR remains fairly steady, I command it rich earlier in the run to help spool the turbo. HPFP remains on target and AFR follows. The stock LPFP is supplying 16 injectors and the HPFP and does run at a lower pressure, as expected.
The following users liked this post:
Mikec7z (04-25-2019)
03-16-2018, 09:25 AM
#50
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Here is another back to back comparison on a different C7 ZO6 equipped with a Procharger F1X and FORE triple pump LPFP upgrade, return fuel system on MS109 and meth, as it came from a "well known" shop out of Texas. 
Even with the low side supplying 85 psi of fuel pressure, the high side would struggle, and the meth can't make up for it which is the red run. The blue run, is after we installed the CR-Fueler 2.0 Holley HP port injection controller kit, and a set of 850cc injectors. Again on the same MS109 fuel. Pretty substantial power gains, and really shows that massive amounts of low side fuel pressure doesn't mean everything!
Even with the low side supplying 85 psi of fuel pressure, the high side would struggle, and the meth can't make up for it which is the red run. The blue run, is after we installed the CR-Fueler 2.0 Holley HP port injection controller kit, and a set of 850cc injectors. Again on the same MS109 fuel. Pretty substantial power gains, and really shows that massive amounts of low side fuel pressure doesn't mean everything!
The following 5 users liked this post by Crawford-Racing.com:
C5-VERT (04-25-2019),
Earl H (03-16-2018),
houdini13 (03-16-2018),
Mikec7z (04-25-2019),
Yve@Edgyvette (04-05-2018)
03-16-2018, 12:16 PM
#51
Former Vendor
Sharing Knowledge to Chew On 👍... That's what car mods are about!
Guys, again, this thread was never an advocation to not upgrade your LPFP, this car is getting a full LPFP upgrade. I mean, heck, I have C7 LPFP fuel pump kits to sell as well!!
The thread was to show how suprising it was that the low side was capable of supplying a ridiculous amount of fuel. I have never seen anyone test the stock fuel system with just adding the port injection. Most of my customers have already learned the fuel system limitations by the time they have considered the PI and have a LPFP upgrade already in place.
This first graph is a heat soaked pull before the cooled down "glory" 841 pull. This car does not have an electronic boost controler, and does drop boost as rpm increases, and is still a completely stock LT4 engine including the stock VVT cam, which does seem to have a hard time keeping up with higher boost levels. Power does peak and roll off, as expected with less boost and stock valvetrain. AFR remains fairly steady, I command it rich earlier in the run to help spool the turbo. HPFP remains on target and AFR follows. The stock LPFP is supplying 16 injectors and the HPFP and does run at a lower pressure, as expected.
The thread was to show how suprising it was that the low side was capable of supplying a ridiculous amount of fuel. I have never seen anyone test the stock fuel system with just adding the port injection. Most of my customers have already learned the fuel system limitations by the time they have considered the PI and have a LPFP upgrade already in place.
This first graph is a heat soaked pull before the cooled down "glory" 841 pull. This car does not have an electronic boost controler, and does drop boost as rpm increases, and is still a completely stock LT4 engine including the stock VVT cam, which does seem to have a hard time keeping up with higher boost levels. Power does peak and roll off, as expected with less boost and stock valvetrain. AFR remains fairly steady, I command it rich earlier in the run to help spool the turbo. HPFP remains on target and AFR follows. The stock LPFP is supplying 16 injectors and the HPFP and does run at a lower pressure, as expected.
Yvé
Last edited by Yve@Edgyvette; 04-05-2018 at 02:47 PM.
03-16-2018, 04:27 PM
#52
Melting Slicks
Whats the hp limit for an e30 blend with only utilizing the factory fuel setup and no additional injectors??
03-16-2018, 08:03 PM
#53
Great thread, I am about to buy a new c7z, I haven't owned a corvette in a while. I have been looking around here on the forum for the past few days to see what fueling options exist.
I am new, but used to own a c5 modified car that I was having fueling issues with back in 2003. I believe the detail everyone is missing is the extra fuel line up the tunnel which feeds the port injection. This allows for more fuel to flow with less restriction. I had an issue with my c5 fueling on my boosted car until someone suggested that we replace the stock narrow metal line up the tunnel with a larger AN Braided hose. Sure enough, we picked up over 80hp worth of fuel on the dyno, when we were running lean prior. The stock fuel line up the tunnel is restrictive. The fuel pump itself can move more fuel IF it is given a larger volume hose or an additional hose to only the stock fuel line. My guess is there is a second dedicated fuel line being used in this setup which is ran from the in tank pump, up the tunnel of the vehicle to the Port injection. OR, there is a larger diameter line being used up the tunnel, and then the fork happens up at the motor before the cam high pressure pump.
It would be great to see a side by side comparison of what a car can do with a larger hose up the tunnel to the cam high pressure pump without port injection. Once that setup is dyno and tested to its maximum limit, leave the large line to the cam high pressure pump in place, and then activate the already installed port injection system, with its separate dedicated fuel line, which would fork off back at the driver's tank, and see how much extra power is picked up, if any using the port injection. OR, still use the larger line up the tunnel, and fork up by the motor.
The port injection should pick up SOME power always, as it is less restrictive to flow fuel through 16 total injectors instead of the original 8. It will always be less backpressure against the in tank pump, so it can pump larger volume of fuel into the chamber. More fuel means more power and a richer condition than before.
My belief is that everyone in this thread is partially correct. The stock fuel system does not flow this amount of fuel through the stock fuel line up the tunnel. At the same token, the claims being made are accurate, and they are due to larger diameter or additional feed line up the tunnel, and double the amount of injectors, which reduces the overall restriction against the in tank fuel pump.
I am new, but used to own a c5 modified car that I was having fueling issues with back in 2003. I believe the detail everyone is missing is the extra fuel line up the tunnel which feeds the port injection. This allows for more fuel to flow with less restriction. I had an issue with my c5 fueling on my boosted car until someone suggested that we replace the stock narrow metal line up the tunnel with a larger AN Braided hose. Sure enough, we picked up over 80hp worth of fuel on the dyno, when we were running lean prior. The stock fuel line up the tunnel is restrictive. The fuel pump itself can move more fuel IF it is given a larger volume hose or an additional hose to only the stock fuel line. My guess is there is a second dedicated fuel line being used in this setup which is ran from the in tank pump, up the tunnel of the vehicle to the Port injection. OR, there is a larger diameter line being used up the tunnel, and then the fork happens up at the motor before the cam high pressure pump.
It would be great to see a side by side comparison of what a car can do with a larger hose up the tunnel to the cam high pressure pump without port injection. Once that setup is dyno and tested to its maximum limit, leave the large line to the cam high pressure pump in place, and then activate the already installed port injection system, with its separate dedicated fuel line, which would fork off back at the driver's tank, and see how much extra power is picked up, if any using the port injection. OR, still use the larger line up the tunnel, and fork up by the motor.
The port injection should pick up SOME power always, as it is less restrictive to flow fuel through 16 total injectors instead of the original 8. It will always be less backpressure against the in tank pump, so it can pump larger volume of fuel into the chamber. More fuel means more power and a richer condition than before.
My belief is that everyone in this thread is partially correct. The stock fuel system does not flow this amount of fuel through the stock fuel line up the tunnel. At the same token, the claims being made are accurate, and they are due to larger diameter or additional feed line up the tunnel, and double the amount of injectors, which reduces the overall restriction against the in tank fuel pump.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 03-16-2018 at 08:26 PM.
03-16-2018, 10:30 PM
#54
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
The stock fuel line was utilized on this car for testing from the tank to the underhood connection. The port injection is "T'd" in at the HPFP.
With most LPFP upgrades, a regulator with separate feed and return lines are added for the ultimate in fuel flow.
With most LPFP upgrades, a regulator with separate feed and return lines are added for the ultimate in fuel flow.
The following users liked this post:
Mikec7z (04-25-2019)
03-16-2018, 11:50 PM
#55
Im happy to be wrong if I am, but its worth a shot if you are trying to really show people what can be done on a budget. A braided fuel line up the tunnel is not an expensive remedy. Not sure how the c7's line looks relative to the c5's, but i remember at the male ends of the feed line, there was a little "lip" that tightened the diameter even further. Grinding off that interior lip, helped out with flow if a person did not want to hassle with running the braided fuel lines up the tunnel.
I have no idea the look of the fuel line's on the c7z, as I do not own one yet. About to soon hopefully.
03-24-2018, 08:57 PM
#56
Former Vendor
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 18,673
Received 393 Likes
on
286 Posts
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12'-'13-'14-'15
EV800 package NOW available for purchase. SPECIAL pricing and FREE shipping until 1 May 2018. https://www.edgyvette.com/product/ev...power-package/
We still need to re sleeve the lines and polish the kit up but you get the idea. The shop car now has over 1k miles of mixed city and highway driving with no issues whatsoever. This thing pulls like a freight train............a freight train can do 200mph. LOL
We still need to re sleeve the lines and polish the kit up but you get the idea. The shop car now has over 1k miles of mixed city and highway driving with no issues whatsoever. This thing pulls like a freight train............a freight train can do 200mph. LOL
The following users liked this post:
Mikec7z (04-25-2019)
04-25-2019, 10:28 PM
#58
this is a good thread, its a shame Chris does not toot his own horn more often. Very classy guy who is way ahead of the curve.
I bring this thread back because all of these shops tuning lt5's now think they have the fuel limits figured out. Its painful to watch some of them.
Granted, a turbo is more efficient.. but still. Its fun to watch the other shops argue this is not real.
Keep in mind, this was not on the larger 19 pump, it was on the smaller 16 in tank pump. Meanwhile, we have shops saying their zr1 are out of fuel at much lower numbers with the larger pump
Someone needs to help them with their COT off switches, and learning to tune port injection to its fullest potential. Hint, 100% on the DI injectors is not always the best practice
I bring this thread back because all of these shops tuning lt5's now think they have the fuel limits figured out. Its painful to watch some of them.
Granted, a turbo is more efficient.. but still. Its fun to watch the other shops argue this is not real.
Keep in mind, this was not on the larger 19 pump, it was on the smaller 16 in tank pump. Meanwhile, we have shops saying their zr1 are out of fuel at much lower numbers with the larger pump
Someone needs to help them with their COT off switches, and learning to tune port injection to its fullest potential. Hint, 100% on the DI injectors is not always the best practice
Last edited by Mikec7z; 04-25-2019 at 11:34 PM.
