New '16 Z06 owner. What to know and good mods
08-14-2018, 10:42 PM
#221
Drifting
what is the concentration of oxygen if it is 100%? WOULD concentration vary per altitude if it is 100% of the air? IF "NO", then I'm right.
If "YES", it does vary concentration at different altitude when it is 100%, then I'm not right.
I don't know if im right or not, I'm taking a shot in the dark, because everything else we agree on and seems to be sound.
I would plug 100% o2 into your equations, and if it does not come out to be 20psi bar equals 20psi bar, no matter how you get there... then understand, your understanding of "concentration" might be off, and rightfully so... BECAUSE MOST EXPERT SCIENTISTS ON THE INTERNET SEEM TO BE EXPLAINING IT WRONG in valley girl "LIKE" contexts.
If "YES", it does vary concentration at different altitude when it is 100%, then I'm not right.
I don't know if im right or not, I'm taking a shot in the dark, because everything else we agree on and seems to be sound.
I would plug 100% o2 into your equations, and if it does not come out to be 20psi bar equals 20psi bar, no matter how you get there... then understand, your understanding of "concentration" might be off, and rightfully so... BECAUSE MOST EXPERT SCIENTISTS ON THE INTERNET SEEM TO BE EXPLAINING IT WRONG in valley girl "LIKE" contexts.
Mike,
All that was missing was the density of gases. I did not address it and I should have.l I overlooked it in the discussion as it is something I deal with regularly. Pressure is pressure, that is it. Gas composition and density are different. I think we got caught up trying to integrate these into daily practice. We all tried to discuss the same concept but the gases we were describing were not identical in all situations. The ratio of O2 to N2 was the same, it was just the number of molecules in a defined volume that was different. Now try doing this daily with fluids as well. Try to figure out delivery rates for potassium or sodium based on various compounds made of the same stuff. Not easy at first but then becomes second nature. These are ideas we don't use everyday in life. It is moments like this that makes all of use put our "thinking caps" on.
It was good discussion though.
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Mikec7z (08-14-2018)
08-14-2018, 10:49 PM
#222
no big deal man, things will run smoother between us from here out I know. We have 2 different approaches to how we think and solve, and if we work together, there will be no stone left unturned. All is well man, i wasnt trying to cut on you there at the end, i was cutting more on me and admitting i should have been more forthright with information i knew you might be overlooking. All good. We will know more about these cars with stock tunes before it is all said and done, than anyone else on this forum 
Warp's car is stock also he told me. So we all have equal interest. After my current car goes back to GM, the next one i might experiment with more. Time will tell.
Warp's car is stock also he told me. So we all have equal interest. After my current car goes back to GM, the next one i might experiment with more. Time will tell.
08-14-2018, 10:52 PM
#223
Mike,
All that was missing was the density of gases. I did not address it and I should have.l I overlooked it in the discussion as it is something I deal with regularly. Pressure is pressure, that is it. Gas composition and density are different. I think we got caught up trying to integrate these into daily practice. We all tried to discuss the same concept but the gases we were describing were not identical in all situations. The ratio of O2 to N2 was the same, it was just the number of molecules in a defined volume that was different. Now try doing this daily with fluids as well. Try to figure out delivery rates for potassium or sodium based on various compounds made of the same stuff. Not easy at first but then becomes second nature. These are ideas we don't use everyday in life. It is moments like this that makes all of use put our "thinking caps" on.
It was good discussion though.
All that was missing was the density of gases. I did not address it and I should have.l I overlooked it in the discussion as it is something I deal with regularly. Pressure is pressure, that is it. Gas composition and density are different. I think we got caught up trying to integrate these into daily practice. We all tried to discuss the same concept but the gases we were describing were not identical in all situations. The ratio of O2 to N2 was the same, it was just the number of molecules in a defined volume that was different. Now try doing this daily with fluids as well. Try to figure out delivery rates for potassium or sodium based on various compounds made of the same stuff. Not easy at first but then becomes second nature. These are ideas we don't use everyday in life. It is moments like this that makes all of use put our "thinking caps" on.
It was good discussion though.
PS, they can never keep me asleep, i always wake up in the middle of whatever they wanted to keep me asleep for, so don't take it personally, I'm a pain in the *** with all anesthesiologists
Last edited by Mikec7z; 08-14-2018 at 11:26 PM.
08-15-2018, 12:14 AM
#224
nah, i think that is how they all are stock. (unless of course, a car is in colorado, then it would not hit the air flow/pressure limits to need to run rich, so its afr would stay at 12.5 longer, or even until the end of the rpm range.)
I think the cat protection is a lie GM wants people to believe is real.
The real truth is they are limiting HP and Torque, and I believe the info I was provided a few months back about them using the MAF and MAP sensors, and a set of pre determined limits, which cause the cars to run more and more RICH leading up to the p0106 limit, is accurate info.
I believe Jstewarts dyno's are accurate. I believe the car learned the BMS was there flowing more air and thus making more power, and it is running .1 to .2 richer to UNDO the power gain and bring power back down, intentionally being .1 or .2 richer than a stock car which flows LESS air... and thus does not hit as high on the tables' limits.
The "dive rich" occurring at later rpm is due to the x-pipe preventing MAP pressure from reaching the "dive rich" limit as quickly, as the X pipe lessens restriction and thus not as much pressure has to be built to flow as much air... so the map sensor is blinded from doing its job. See, GM is using EVERY sensor at their disposal to TRY to detect the car is flowing more air and thus making more power. Its not just the map, or just the maf, or just exhaust 02 sensors... it is all of the above.
What is cool is, the catless down pipes have those "sims" that go in place of the stock sensors, so i believe those FURTHER trick the stock tune.
The MAF is the ONLY enemy left... AFE and halltech are the only companies so far that have tried to trick the MAF. VaraRam was going to do this as well, but in the electronic fashion. I want VaraRam's product to succeed, i just want them to be aware how lean their car is going to run at sea level on a cold night at 150mph, so they need to make sure their unit prevents a lean situation in the engine during those circumstances. Which is why i thought up the slide gate in the first place... they are going to need one to restrict the air flow I believe.
I believe the geometry of the AFE tube was specially designed to trick the MAF. I believe Terry at BMS figured this out, but I think he is also careful to discuss it, because a person is likely to say "alright, so the bottom line is, your filter flows as much or more as the AFE, BUT the AFE is tricking the MAF, so AFE will allow me to see 20+ hp an torque gains, where the BMS will NOT show gains once the car learns the BMS is on there flowing more air... correct?"
And at that point, he probably has to say "correct" and then they go off and buy an afe.
What Terry should be focused on is a way to trick the maf the way the AFE does. Then his BMS would shine.
Slide gates with all different patterns and cut outs... in the actual blade that slides into the intake pipe, just ahead of the maf... are going to be the new trend very soon.
I think the cat protection is a lie GM wants people to believe is real.
The real truth is they are limiting HP and Torque, and I believe the info I was provided a few months back about them using the MAF and MAP sensors, and a set of pre determined limits, which cause the cars to run more and more RICH leading up to the p0106 limit, is accurate info.
I believe Jstewarts dyno's are accurate. I believe the car learned the BMS was there flowing more air and thus making more power, and it is running .1 to .2 richer to UNDO the power gain and bring power back down, intentionally being .1 or .2 richer than a stock car which flows LESS air... and thus does not hit as high on the tables' limits.
The "dive rich" occurring at later rpm is due to the x-pipe preventing MAP pressure from reaching the "dive rich" limit as quickly, as the X pipe lessens restriction and thus not as much pressure has to be built to flow as much air... so the map sensor is blinded from doing its job. See, GM is using EVERY sensor at their disposal to TRY to detect the car is flowing more air and thus making more power. Its not just the map, or just the maf, or just exhaust 02 sensors... it is all of the above.
What is cool is, the catless down pipes have those "sims" that go in place of the stock sensors, so i believe those FURTHER trick the stock tune.
The MAF is the ONLY enemy left... AFE and halltech are the only companies so far that have tried to trick the MAF. VaraRam was going to do this as well, but in the electronic fashion. I want VaraRam's product to succeed, i just want them to be aware how lean their car is going to run at sea level on a cold night at 150mph, so they need to make sure their unit prevents a lean situation in the engine during those circumstances. Which is why i thought up the slide gate in the first place... they are going to need one to restrict the air flow I believe.
I believe the geometry of the AFE tube was specially designed to trick the MAF. I believe Terry at BMS figured this out, but I think he is also careful to discuss it, because a person is likely to say "alright, so the bottom line is, your filter flows as much or more as the AFE, BUT the AFE is tricking the MAF, so AFE will allow me to see 20+ hp an torque gains, where the BMS will NOT show gains once the car learns the BMS is on there flowing more air... correct?"
And at that point, he probably has to say "correct" and then they go off and buy an afe.
What Terry should be focused on is a way to trick the maf the way the AFE does. Then his BMS would shine.
Slide gates with all different patterns and cut outs... in the actual blade that slides into the intake pipe, just ahead of the maf... are going to be the new trend very soon.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 08-15-2018 at 06:58 PM.
08-15-2018, 07:57 AM
#225
Racer
What is cool is, the catless down pipes have those "sims" that go in place of the stock sensors, so i believe those FURTHER trick the stock tune.
Correct me if I am wrong but the O2 sims only get installed were the rear O2 sensors go and I thought the rear O2 sensors main purpose was to monitor Catalytic Converter health and they have nothing to do with AFR adjustment. So with that said what would they be actually tricking in the stock tune? I know most if not all in this discussion know the purpose of the front and rear O2 sensors but I thought I would add the description I got on a web site
So what’s the difference between upstream and downstream oxygen sensors? Actually quite a bit. They both have unique functions, the upstream sensors’ main function is to monitor the air fuel ratio coming directly out of the engine, and use that data to help the engine perform properly. The downstream sensors, however, have a completely different use. Their primary task is to monitor how effectively the catalytic converter(s) are working. When a catalytic converter is working properly, the downstream oxygen sensor will output a relatively steady voltage of about .5 volts (after everything is at optimal temperature). If the converter is going bad, the voltage coming from the downstream sensor will be almost identical to the voltage coming from the upstream, which fluctuates between .2 and .8 volts while the engine is running.
Correct me if I am wrong but the O2 sims only get installed were the rear O2 sensors go and I thought the rear O2 sensors main purpose was to monitor Catalytic Converter health and they have nothing to do with AFR adjustment. So with that said what would they be actually tricking in the stock tune? I know most if not all in this discussion know the purpose of the front and rear O2 sensors but I thought I would add the description I got on a web site
So what’s the difference between upstream and downstream oxygen sensors? Actually quite a bit. They both have unique functions, the upstream sensors’ main function is to monitor the air fuel ratio coming directly out of the engine, and use that data to help the engine perform properly. The downstream sensors, however, have a completely different use. Their primary task is to monitor how effectively the catalytic converter(s) are working. When a catalytic converter is working properly, the downstream oxygen sensor will output a relatively steady voltage of about .5 volts (after everything is at optimal temperature). If the converter is going bad, the voltage coming from the downstream sensor will be almost identical to the voltage coming from the upstream, which fluctuates between .2 and .8 volts while the engine is running.
Last edited by CSIXX1; 08-15-2018 at 08:15 AM.
08-15-2018, 04:06 PM
#226
what i meant is it is one less sensor that GM can use to detect anomalies. A lot of people over in the meth thread that we have going, are saying that the meth will mess up the cat sensors and **** the car off. These downpipes and sims would be a must upgrade to avoid any issues with meth on a stock tune car.
I believe it will be possible to put together a package for these cars and have them throw NO codes, so x pipe, down pipes, intake, PTB and perhaps even ported blower, and different pulley, and keep the cars from throwing codes.
i believe this will be possible ONCE we understand how each sensor point in the vehicle detects thresholds and how to "trick" the car.
THen a person can just pull all the upgrades back off, if they ever had a major warranty claim, etc.
I believe it will be possible to put together a package for these cars and have them throw NO codes, so x pipe, down pipes, intake, PTB and perhaps even ported blower, and different pulley, and keep the cars from throwing codes.
i believe this will be possible ONCE we understand how each sensor point in the vehicle detects thresholds and how to "trick" the car.
THen a person can just pull all the upgrades back off, if they ever had a major warranty claim, etc.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 08-15-2018 at 04:07 PM.
08-15-2018, 04:44 PM
#227
Racer
what i meant is it is one less sensor that GM can use to detect anomalies. A lot of people over in the meth thread that we have going, are saying that the meth will mess up the cat sensors and **** the car off. These downpipes and sims would be a must upgrade to avoid any issues with meth on a stock tune car.
I believe it will be possible to put together a package for these cars and have them throw NO codes, so x pipe, down pipes, intake, PTB and perhaps even ported blower, and different pulley, and keep the cars from throwing codes.
i believe this will be possible ONCE we understand how each sensor point in the vehicle detects thresholds and how to "trick" the car.
THen a person can just pull all the upgrades back off, if they ever had a major warranty claim, etc.
I believe it will be possible to put together a package for these cars and have them throw NO codes, so x pipe, down pipes, intake, PTB and perhaps even ported blower, and different pulley, and keep the cars from throwing codes.
i believe this will be possible ONCE we understand how each sensor point in the vehicle detects thresholds and how to "trick" the car.
THen a person can just pull all the upgrades back off, if they ever had a major warranty claim, etc.
08-15-2018, 04:53 PM
#228
to be honest on the 02 sensor pre cat, i do not know what they do/dont do to the car and the afr decisions it makes based on those sensors. I do NOT believe that these sensors dictate the decision to run rich.. it would make no sense. car is running 12.5 afr... why would the 02 sensor blindly say, "OKAY, LETS RUN A 10.8 NOW!" it wouldn't, so that decision to run 10.8 or lower, is dictated by the MAF and MAP readings at specific RPM at wot. I believe the 02 sensors are more just to assure the car it is running the o2 level/afr that it is TRYING to run. If those intended readings and reality readings get too far away from each other in distance, then it will throw a code probably. But if we can keep the car trying to run a 12.5 afr the entire way, then the 02 sensors seeing 12.5 or whatever LIKE reading they have the capability measure since they are not true wideband sensors i do not believe... then all should be fine. So i don't think there will be a need to TRICK the pre-cat o2 sensors. just my prediction.
Yes, the cat sims could be used in place with the stock cats.
The normal me... tests things and figures them out before I speak about them so much... but with this car going back to GM, and them keeping tabs on me here im sure, my hands are tied... i can't do any testing really, and I'm all talk. And believe me, that has me ashamed, but I am at least throwing out the ideas I think MAY work, just in case someone else wants to toy with this stuff and get a head start.
Really all a person needs is a dyno and an 02 wideband sensor, and that's it... the rest is just trial and error and watch and learn what is going on when x changes, and y changes, etc.
I really believe a vendor who carries a pre programmed meth kit for stock tune, and an intake, and PTB, and x pipe and down pipes, and whatever sensor alteration devices are needed, and can show how the car maintains power when the stock car drops it tremendously (meth preventing knock) and also have a steady 70hp/torque gain across the rev range... they would sell those components like hotcakes once the world saw what the end result package would be and do... people would mod bit by bit, or all at once, and do that package.
For this package to work, someone has to be AWARE of the vast changes the altitude has on the car. Essentially, all testing should be done at sea level, and in as cold of weather as possible. If it works there, it will work everywhere. At higher altitudes, a pulley swap would get the car back to equal with the sea level car. The sea level car may even have a pulley swap, but the higher altitude has a more aggressive pulley combo yet.
Yes, the cat sims could be used in place with the stock cats.
The normal me... tests things and figures them out before I speak about them so much... but with this car going back to GM, and them keeping tabs on me here im sure, my hands are tied... i can't do any testing really, and I'm all talk. And believe me, that has me ashamed, but I am at least throwing out the ideas I think MAY work, just in case someone else wants to toy with this stuff and get a head start.
Really all a person needs is a dyno and an 02 wideband sensor, and that's it... the rest is just trial and error and watch and learn what is going on when x changes, and y changes, etc.
I really believe a vendor who carries a pre programmed meth kit for stock tune, and an intake, and PTB, and x pipe and down pipes, and whatever sensor alteration devices are needed, and can show how the car maintains power when the stock car drops it tremendously (meth preventing knock) and also have a steady 70hp/torque gain across the rev range... they would sell those components like hotcakes once the world saw what the end result package would be and do... people would mod bit by bit, or all at once, and do that package.
For this package to work, someone has to be AWARE of the vast changes the altitude has on the car. Essentially, all testing should be done at sea level, and in as cold of weather as possible. If it works there, it will work everywhere. At higher altitudes, a pulley swap would get the car back to equal with the sea level car. The sea level car may even have a pulley swap, but the higher altitude has a more aggressive pulley combo yet.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 08-15-2018 at 06:51 PM.
08-15-2018, 05:07 PM
#229
the biggest product we need right now is for someone to get to market, a "MAF max output signal limiter". IF we can keep the maf from sending back certain high values, then the maf and the MAP can be kept in check to keep the car away from codes like p0106. (map is kept in check by de-restricting downpipe and x pipe and exhaust, which will lower manifold pressures, yet flow more o2 into the chamber)
The car will eventually still hit p228c, as it runs out of fuel, but keep in mind, the car won't be demanding the fuel to run rich, so it will be requesting less fuel per HP/Torque level... so once the MAF and MAP sensors can be kept from sending back max threshold readings to the stock tune which no longer exceed the stock tunes thresholds/red flags.... THEN the car wont be requesting as much fuel. So the fuel system CAN keep up.
This of course is why the o2 wideband is so important, to keep an eye on IF the car starts running lean.
IF the car started to run lean, then the "aftermarket electronic box" that limits the maf sensor's readings, would need the point where ITS limit activates, to be raised... that way the stock tune would see a slightly higher maf signal and thus realize it needs slightly more fuel. If we can trick the car into keeping the AFR more in proper ratios, then instead of 10.8 and lower, we do what we can to keep it at or below 12.5, and the fuel the car was using to run rich before, will now only be used to run at proper 12.5 afr and make more power. I would not be surprised if 100+hp can be gained on the stock tune once a person UNDERSTANDS and innovates the existing products on the market, to keep the car at 12.5 instead of 10.8 or lower, and keep timing advanced etc.
Once a person has the maf's max signal on a dial essentially, THEN they can start to isolate WHAT the o2 sensors pre-cat, are dictating that the car should do/not do, concerning afr and/or any YET to be discovered codes that put the car into limp mode.
The car will eventually still hit p228c, as it runs out of fuel, but keep in mind, the car won't be demanding the fuel to run rich, so it will be requesting less fuel per HP/Torque level... so once the MAF and MAP sensors can be kept from sending back max threshold readings to the stock tune which no longer exceed the stock tunes thresholds/red flags.... THEN the car wont be requesting as much fuel. So the fuel system CAN keep up.
This of course is why the o2 wideband is so important, to keep an eye on IF the car starts running lean.
IF the car started to run lean, then the "aftermarket electronic box" that limits the maf sensor's readings, would need the point where ITS limit activates, to be raised... that way the stock tune would see a slightly higher maf signal and thus realize it needs slightly more fuel. If we can trick the car into keeping the AFR more in proper ratios, then instead of 10.8 and lower, we do what we can to keep it at or below 12.5, and the fuel the car was using to run rich before, will now only be used to run at proper 12.5 afr and make more power. I would not be surprised if 100+hp can be gained on the stock tune once a person UNDERSTANDS and innovates the existing products on the market, to keep the car at 12.5 instead of 10.8 or lower, and keep timing advanced etc.
Once a person has the maf's max signal on a dial essentially, THEN they can start to isolate WHAT the o2 sensors pre-cat, are dictating that the car should do/not do, concerning afr and/or any YET to be discovered codes that put the car into limp mode.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 08-15-2018 at 06:57 PM.
08-15-2018, 11:05 PM
#230
I think Mike might need turbos to spin faster at higher altitudes vrs our superchargers that spin in relation to engine rpm/and maybe a bigger lobe on cam for more fuel/and wow this has been tough reading/I'm gone
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Mikec7z (08-15-2018)
08-15-2018, 11:38 PM
#231
Turbos are much easier because the electronic boost controller controls the map with BOV/wasegates
Unfortunately, stock vettes dont have turbos yet do they?
Nor do turbos work with our stock tunes and warranties
Last edited by Mikec7z; 08-15-2018 at 11:41 PM.
08-18-2018, 10:25 AM
#232
Just read through the entire post this morning. Hope to shed some light on why the same MAP reading at different altitudes make different HP figures.
Say I have a tank with a absolute pressure gauge on it that is calibrated to zero at sea level. It is filled with air until it reads 10 PSI at sea level. I take it to outer space, it reads 10 PSI, then to Colorado, 10 PSI. I let all the air out while I'm in Colorado and now it reads -2 PSI because of the lower atmospheric pressure compared to sea level. Now I fill the tank until it reads 10 PSI. I had to compress the air 12 PSI to reach the same reading as at sea level. It took more work to reach the same absolute pressure. Warp Factor said this a while back. As long as the ratios for the different gases are the same, then there is the same amount of O2 in there as at sea level. Molecules vibrate and bounce off each other creating pressure. It doesn't matter what the pressure is outside, only what it is inside. It takes the same amount of molecules to make that pressure no matter what the conditions are outside as long as all other variable remain the same.
Assuming the MAP sensor does read absolute, and nowhere is atmospheric pressure brought into the equation, then in this example, the compressor had to compress 20% more to reach the same MAP level. Plus as Warp Factor brought up, the additional heat generated by that. Chances are the intercooler is not going to cool to the same levels considering the addition heat load and the fact that less dense outside air is cooling the radiator.
I agree with Mike and Warp Factor on this.
Say I have a tank with a absolute pressure gauge on it that is calibrated to zero at sea level. It is filled with air until it reads 10 PSI at sea level. I take it to outer space, it reads 10 PSI, then to Colorado, 10 PSI. I let all the air out while I'm in Colorado and now it reads -2 PSI because of the lower atmospheric pressure compared to sea level. Now I fill the tank until it reads 10 PSI. I had to compress the air 12 PSI to reach the same reading as at sea level. It took more work to reach the same absolute pressure. Warp Factor said this a while back. As long as the ratios for the different gases are the same, then there is the same amount of O2 in there as at sea level. Molecules vibrate and bounce off each other creating pressure. It doesn't matter what the pressure is outside, only what it is inside. It takes the same amount of molecules to make that pressure no matter what the conditions are outside as long as all other variable remain the same.
Assuming the MAP sensor does read absolute, and nowhere is atmospheric pressure brought into the equation, then in this example, the compressor had to compress 20% more to reach the same MAP level. Plus as Warp Factor brought up, the additional heat generated by that. Chances are the intercooler is not going to cool to the same levels considering the addition heat load and the fact that less dense outside air is cooling the radiator.
I agree with Mike and Warp Factor on this.
08-18-2018, 03:22 PM
#233
appreciate the feedback, and that you agree with warp and I... but, not trying to split hairs or be a jerk...
but i dont want someone else to read your explanation and think that is what warp or i believe as reality.
The rest of your explanation after this part is correct, but this first line is not correct assuming temp of the manifold air is the same... which i was very specific about.
Usually however, temp is not the same in the manifold, it is higher at the higher altitude since the air has to be compressed more. If this is what you were saying, great, your opening line just seemed off a bit to me.
Map sensor readings are absolute or they calculate to absolute. So equal map is equal HP if temp is equal. One has to spin the screws faster to get to equal map at higher altitudes.
Thank you for your interest in our thread and I am sorry you had to read all of this
but i dont want someone else to read your explanation and think that is what warp or i believe as reality.
Usually however, temp is not the same in the manifold, it is higher at the higher altitude since the air has to be compressed more. If this is what you were saying, great, your opening line just seemed off a bit to me.
Map sensor readings are absolute or they calculate to absolute. So equal map is equal HP if temp is equal. One has to spin the screws faster to get to equal map at higher altitudes.
Thank you for your interest in our thread and I am sorry you had to read all of this
Last edited by Mikec7z; 08-18-2018 at 05:21 PM.
08-18-2018, 05:11 PM
#235
we like feedback, just dont want the record to show that I think same map and same temp equals different power... which was your opening line. All good man, glad you chimed in, like i said, everything else you wrote below that first line, was spot on, and i do agree with. I can see you get it.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 08-18-2018 at 05:12 PM.
08-18-2018, 05:25 PM
#236
we like feedback, just dont want the record to show that I think same map and same temp equals different power... which was your opening line. All good man, glad you chimed in, like i said, everything else you wrote below that first line, was spot on, and i do agree with. I can see you get it.
You say it is generally cooler at altitude, and I agree. I live at 7300 ft and it was in the 90's this summer, so not as hot as parts Arizona, but none the less, not exactly cool.
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Mikec7z (08-18-2018)
08-18-2018, 05:48 PM
#237
parasitic loss.... now there is a new variable we all missed. Good spot. However, the engine is still producing same power, but the power is then subtracted from the crank HP since it is spinning the blower. But yes, you are correct. 
08-18-2018, 05:48 PM
#238
we like feedback, just dont want the record to show that I think same map and same temp equals different power... which was your opening line. All good man, glad you chimed in, like i said, everything else you wrote below that first line, was spot on, and i do agree with. I can see you get it.
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Mikec7z (08-18-2018)
08-18-2018, 05:51 PM
#239
Actually, I don't know what MAP is, I just thought it was manifold pressure and temperature. If it was manifold pressure and temp was the same, then power would be lower at altitude because of the additional parasitic lose due to compressing 12 psi vs 10 psi to get to the same manifold pressure. That is a simplistic view of it, due to the intercooler having more heat load and less capacity at altitude.
You say it is generally cooler at altitude, and I agree. I live at 7300 ft and it was in the 90's this summer, so not as hot as parts Arizona, but none the less, not exactly cool.
You say it is generally cooler at altitude, and I agree. I live at 7300 ft and it was in the 90's this summer, so not as hot as parts Arizona, but none the less, not exactly cool.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 08-18-2018 at 05:51 PM.
08-18-2018, 05:52 PM
#240
As far as the "cooler at altitude thing", re read what i said... i was agreeing that the higher the altitude the more heat would be created as the air has to be compressed further to get to the same map. I was saying that if ambient air temps were the same, that the manifold air temp at the map sensor would be HIGHER on the high altitude cars as the screws had to spin faster to achieve the greater amount of total compression. Which we agree on, i just think you mis read what i said.